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@majorrage said in Racism in England Cricket:
Comes as zero surprise to me.
My son is a member of a club and it’s got quite a few non whites in it. The kids mix and don’t see anything. But at the prize giving it was like a licorice all sort crowd. White parents here, brown parents there.
I will add tho, that it cut both ways.
This post wasn't really clear.
One thing that always irks me a bit is the idea that we are all the same and must be treated the same. Well, that's just not true. Everybody deserves equal opportunities and the same sense of justice / appreciation, but reality is that a lot of immigrant / immigrant descendant people in this country have fuck all in common with the British when it comes to socialising - which is a huge part of team Sport. Vaughn is really in the firing line, but I wonder if his point was perhaps about trying to talk about integration, and he crossed a line.
I'll try and explain this without coming across like a bigoted arsehole. I have a 7 and a 9 year old and there is a huge community feel to our school. And I won't lie, it's awesome. They made us feel really welcome, we have a large circle of friends because of it and it's very very diverse. We have camps, dinners, balls etc. Standard stuff. I would say in each year, there are 5 Pakistani / Muslim families. I get on well with them, often chatting at pick up, talking about all sorts. But here's the thing.
They never go to the camps. Ever. They never go to the balls. Ever. They never go to the charity events. Ever. Occasionally you'll get 1-2 at the dad meet ups, and they don't drink and usually go home early. None of this changes what I think of them, it's just a fact. I'll probably see a couple of drop off tomorrow and we'll talk about the cricket as well as other things. And it'll be nice.
But some lines are never ever crossed, and others rarely. I'm not sure that sort of spirit really works in a team-sport environment & i can see how that could create tension. It doesn't excuse crossing lines, never. But perhaps when comments such as England cricket is institutionally racist there is a bit more to it. I know the world is supposed to be one big friendly melting pot, especially Britain & the US. But almost all of the social problems of these 2 countries come from the fact that multi ethnicity integration has its drawbacks. This to me, just seems like another in an ever-growing list.
Doesn't make those making the comments right, not at all. But lets face it, cricket is a basically a piss up played by lads. You are either one of them, or you aren't.
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I can’t wait for Robert Croft to ‘come out’ because as a Welshman playing for England I’m pretty sure he was called everything under the sun.
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@majorrage said in Racism in England Cricket:
@majorrage said in Racism in England Cricket:
Comes as zero surprise to me.
My son is a member of a club and it’s got quite a few non whites in it. The kids mix and don’t see anything. But at the prize giving it was like a licorice all sort crowd. White parents here, brown parents there.
I will add tho, that it cut both ways.
This post wasn't really clear.
One thing that always irks me a bit is the idea that we are all the same and must be treated the same. Well, that's just not true. Everybody deserves equal opportunities and the same sense of justice / appreciation, but reality is that a lot of immigrant / immigrant descendant people in this country have fuck all in common with the British when it comes to socialising - which is a huge part of team Sport. Vaughn is really in the firing line, but I wonder if his point was perhaps about trying to talk about integration, and he crossed a line.
I'll try and explain this without coming across like a bigoted arsehole. I have a 7 and a 9 year old and there is a huge community feel to our school. And I won't lie, it's awesome. They made us feel really welcome, we have a large circle of friends because of it and it's very very diverse. We have camps, dinners, balls etc. Standard stuff. I would say in each year, there are 5 Pakistani / Muslim families. I get on well with them, often chatting at pick up, talking about all sorts. But here's the thing.
They never go to the camps. Ever. They never go to the balls. Ever. They never go to the charity events. Ever. Occasionally you'll get 1-2 at the dad meet ups, and they don't drink and usually go home early. None of this changes what I think of them, it's just a fact. I'll probably see a couple of drop off tomorrow and we'll talk about the cricket as well as other things. And it'll be nice.
But some lines are never ever crossed, and others rarely. I'm not sure that sort of spirit really works in a team-sport environment & i can see how that could create tension. It doesn't excuse crossing lines, never. But perhaps when comments such as England cricket is institutionally racist there is a bit more to it. I know the world is supposed to be one big friendly melting pot, especially Britain & the US. But almost all of the social problems of these 2 countries come from the fact that multi ethnicity integration has its drawbacks. This to me, just seems like another in an ever-growing list.
Doesn't make those making the comments right, not at all. But lets face it, cricket is a basically a piss up played by lads. You are either one of them, or you aren't.
You didn’t, but the problem is in the era of cancel culture you will to any SJW who wants to get on the bandwagon and encourage anyone to complain.
When I worked at telecom some printer toner cartridge went missing. It was brought up at a sales meeting. Someone joked that ‘Sione’ ( not his real name ) took it. He pretended to be outraged and said ‘it’s cos I’m black isn’t it?’ Genuine good hearted hilarity all round, laughing at each others differences etc. I know for a fact he never went home to cry about it, it was what it was, good fun. You had to have a thick skin in that environment. The accounts team hated us and all the yelling and banter that went round. We were extremely cautious so as not to offend them and get in trouble.
Not sure how much of what has gone on in the cricket examples was like what happened above or genuine racism. It seems a very murky line.
Moral of that story is to pick your audience.
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@mn5 Yeah, the overarching point I'm making though is that this is directly the Pakistan / Muslim community only.
British Indians, British Caribbean, Polish, South African ,Irish, Australian, American, Colombian all have significant representation (at least 2 families) and they get involved.
Honestly think a lot of it is drinking culture.
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@majorrage in a broadly similar situation , my son was playing football in the top football league (outside of football academies), in the South East. Excellent players but they finished towards the bottom of the comp. Half the team were white and the other half black. They all got on ok but there was no real team spirit; just 2 very distinct groups off the pitch that happened to play together. All of the parent volunteering and support of the team was provided by the parents of the white players (with one exception).
It made me sad that almost all of the black kids invariably had no family watching, supporting and encouraging them and sharing some of those special and proud moments we can have during childhood.
I know that there are probably a number of contributory reasons for this, but culture seems to play a massive part.
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@mn5 said in Racism in England Cricket:
@majorrage said in Racism in England Cricket:
@majorrage said in Racism in England Cricket:
Comes as zero surprise to me.
My son is a member of a club and it’s got quite a few non whites in it. The kids mix and don’t see anything. But at the prize giving it was like a licorice all sort crowd. White parents here, brown parents there.
I will add tho, that it cut both ways.
This post wasn't really clear.
One thing that always irks me a bit is the idea that we are all the same and must be treated the same. Well, that's just not true. Everybody deserves equal opportunities and the same sense of justice / appreciation, but reality is that a lot of immigrant / immigrant descendant people in this country have fuck all in common with the British when it comes to socialising - which is a huge part of team Sport. Vaughn is really in the firing line, but I wonder if his point was perhaps about trying to talk about integration, and he crossed a line.
I'll try and explain this without coming across like a bigoted arsehole. I have a 7 and a 9 year old and there is a huge community feel to our school. And I won't lie, it's awesome. They made us feel really welcome, we have a large circle of friends because of it and it's very very diverse. We have camps, dinners, balls etc. Standard stuff. I would say in each year, there are 5 Pakistani / Muslim families. I get on well with them, often chatting at pick up, talking about all sorts. But here's the thing.
They never go to the camps. Ever. They never go to the balls. Ever. They never go to the charity events. Ever. Occasionally you'll get 1-2 at the dad meet ups, and they don't drink and usually go home early. None of this changes what I think of them, it's just a fact. I'll probably see a couple of drop off tomorrow and we'll talk about the cricket as well as other things. And it'll be nice.
But some lines are never ever crossed, and others rarely. I'm not sure that sort of spirit really works in a team-sport environment & i can see how that could create tension. It doesn't excuse crossing lines, never. But perhaps when comments such as England cricket is institutionally racist there is a bit more to it. I know the world is supposed to be one big friendly melting pot, especially Britain & the US. But almost all of the social problems of these 2 countries come from the fact that multi ethnicity integration has its drawbacks. This to me, just seems like another in an ever-growing list.
Doesn't make those making the comments right, not at all. But lets face it, cricket is a basically a piss up played by lads. You are either one of them, or you aren't.
You didn’t, but the problem is in the era of cancel culture you will to any SJW who wants to get on the bandwagon and encourage anyone to complain.
When I worked at telecom some printer toner cartridge went missing. It was brought up at a sales meeting. Someone joked that ‘Sione’ ( not his real name ) took it. He pretended to be outraged and said ‘it’s cos I’m black isn’t it?’ Genuine good hearted hilarity all round, laughing at each others differences etc. I know for a fact he never went home to cry about it, it was what it was, good fun. You had to have a thick skin in that environment. The accounts team hated us and all the yelling and banter that went round. We were extremely cautious so as not to offend them and get in trouble.
Not sure how much of what has gone on in the cricket examples was like what happened above or genuine racism. It seems a very murky line.
Moral of that story is to pick your audience.
Maybe I'm the SJW you referring to, but I don't like this distinction.
There is a brilliant comment on the planet rugby version of this thread that sums up the issue very well. I am quoting it in full, by mabunch78.
The thing that I think a lot of people don't get about the type of 'banter' that's been cited is, whether deployed maliciously or not, it functions to control by isolating people and setting up their 'otherness'. To the hypothetical utterer, it's a casual, almost amusing quip, possibly intended to lighten the atmosphere and foster camaraderie - I'm sure this is likely the case if Vaughan happened to do so. But to the subject, I've no doubt it weighs much more heavily as a reinforcement of their apparently unwelcome otherness, and if they give even the slightest hint of not accepting it in the way intended, their otherness is made more apparent and they will be less accepted. So in other words, it functions as a passive-aggressive marker that traps, controls or subjugates the subject, whether intended or not.
I am uncomfortable with you Sione story above, because it really does not have a place in work environment. Your intentions can be as pure as a very pure thing, but it has no place in a work or team environment.
There is no problem with risky jokes and dealing with harmful stereotypes is better than leaving them unsaid - but there is a time and place for them. At the pub with a very tight group where you are certain that joke will land as intended is fine. That little voice that tells you it might be an issue is actually telling you that the joke is adding toxicity to an environment.
I'll admit I've made the same kinda jokes (and far far worse), and I don't for second think my intentions or mindset was to hurt anyone, but that sort of behaviour is a problem regardless of the actual racism (whatever that word means anyway).
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@sidbarret said in Racism in England Cricket:
I am uncomfortable with you Sione story above, because it really does not have a place in work environment. Your intentions can be as pure as a very pure thing, but it has no place in a work or team environment.
So that you means you have a problem with Sione. As you'll note he was the one to bring race into it.
There is no problem with risky jokes and dealing with harmful stereotypes is better than leaving them unsaid - but there is a time and place for them. At the pub with a very tight group where you are certain that joke will land as intended is fine. That little voice that tells you it might be an issue is actually telling you that the joke is adding toxicity to an environment.
I don't think you meant it like this, but heads up that whether the joke in the pub is fine or not, is not your distinction to make.
I'll admit I've made the same kinda jokes (and far far worse), and I don't for second think my intentions or mindset was to hurt anyone, but that sort of behaviour is a problem regardless of the actual racism (whatever that word means anyway).
I am happy to agree to disagree here. The majority changing to suit the minority is not what's about. People always have the right to push the boundaries and occasionally offend if they cross the line. When that happens they then have the right to apologise as no intention to offend, or make a deal out of it and face the consequences. These are peoples' decisions.
Nobody has the right to get offended on other people's behalf & force consequences on them. Yes, they can point out it's not acceptable and expect an apology, but you shouldn't have to face sanctions if you crack a ill-timed joke in front of an SJW warrior who decided to get uppity.
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The situation you discribe is so common and goes to heart of the struggles a lot people have with living in multicultural society.
I sure as shit don't have clue how to deal with it, but I would just want add something to that - have the family/dad groups ever actively thought of doing bonding sessions other than barbeque-and-beer meet ups that, for lack of a better word, is so normal for the Christian-european groups?
Without wanting to get into the who multiculturalism vs integration discussion - sometimes for the health of group people need to do things a little differently than they did it before?
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My biggest problem with this whole situation is if player 1 called player 2 a useless fluffybunny and both players were of the same race everything would be fine.
As soon as there’s a mix in race, the player called a useless fluffybunny can pull the race card even though there was no racial connotation in the delivery.
Same goes with different sex.
Basically the person has to be taken out of the comment
‘That was shit’ but aimed directly at the person who is a useless fluffybunny.
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Yeah it's completely fine for us to disagree.
Just to be clear, me saying I disagree with an action is not me calling for any consequence or getting upset on behalf of someone else.
I do feel I need to clarify one point though - I didn't mean to say joke in pub good at work bad. What I meant to say was that one needs to be certain that joke is gonna land.
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@sidbarret said in Racism in England Cricket:
Yeah it's completely fine for us to disagree.
Just to be clear, me saying I disagree with an action is not me calling for any consequence or getting upset on behalf of someone else.
I do feel I need to clarify one point though - I didn't mean to say joke in pub good at work bad. What I meant to say was that one needs to be certain that joke is gonna land.
Yeah I follow. It was your wording which irked me but as I said, I didn't think that was what you meant.
You are correct about different things. The camping we do isn't plain camping - it's bushcraft skills, lighting fires, making shelters etc. Then we've also done things like kart racing / golf & clay pigeon shooting (which got canned due to covid). Same thing, non attendance.
I don't like to single out like this honestly, as the parents are all really nice people. But there is simply a line they never cross.
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@booboo said in Racism in England Cricket:
Haven't read the whole thread (It's the Fern, and I'm me) but is there a danger of conflating shitty behaviour with racist behaviour?
I'm normally the first to to query "wasicm everywhere" and I'm certain some of the comments were innocent, but what has been said to Asian players seems to be way over the banter threshold
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@sidbarret said in Racism in England Cricket:
@mn5 said in Racism in England Cricket:
@majorrage said in Racism in England Cricket:
@majorrage said in Racism in England Cricket:
Comes as zero surprise to me.
My son is a member of a club and it’s got quite a few non whites in it. The kids mix and don’t see anything. But at the prize giving it was like a licorice all sort crowd. White parents here, brown parents there.
I will add tho, that it cut both ways.
This post wasn't really clear.
One thing that always irks me a bit is the idea that we are all the same and must be treated the same. Well, that's just not true. Everybody deserves equal opportunities and the same sense of justice / appreciation, but reality is that a lot of immigrant / immigrant descendant people in this country have fuck all in common with the British when it comes to socialising - which is a huge part of team Sport. Vaughn is really in the firing line, but I wonder if his point was perhaps about trying to talk about integration, and he crossed a line.
I'll try and explain this without coming across like a bigoted arsehole. I have a 7 and a 9 year old and there is a huge community feel to our school. And I won't lie, it's awesome. They made us feel really welcome, we have a large circle of friends because of it and it's very very diverse. We have camps, dinners, balls etc. Standard stuff. I would say in each year, there are 5 Pakistani / Muslim families. I get on well with them, often chatting at pick up, talking about all sorts. But here's the thing.
They never go to the camps. Ever. They never go to the balls. Ever. They never go to the charity events. Ever. Occasionally you'll get 1-2 at the dad meet ups, and they don't drink and usually go home early. None of this changes what I think of them, it's just a fact. I'll probably see a couple of drop off tomorrow and we'll talk about the cricket as well as other things. And it'll be nice.
But some lines are never ever crossed, and others rarely. I'm not sure that sort of spirit really works in a team-sport environment & i can see how that could create tension. It doesn't excuse crossing lines, never. But perhaps when comments such as England cricket is institutionally racist there is a bit more to it. I know the world is supposed to be one big friendly melting pot, especially Britain & the US. But almost all of the social problems of these 2 countries come from the fact that multi ethnicity integration has its drawbacks. This to me, just seems like another in an ever-growing list.
Doesn't make those making the comments right, not at all. But lets face it, cricket is a basically a piss up played by lads. You are either one of them, or you aren't.
You didn’t, but the problem is in the era of cancel culture you will to any SJW who wants to get on the bandwagon and encourage anyone to complain.
When I worked at telecom some printer toner cartridge went missing. It was brought up at a sales meeting. Someone joked that ‘Sione’ ( not his real name ) took it. He pretended to be outraged and said ‘it’s cos I’m black isn’t it?’ Genuine good hearted hilarity all round, laughing at each others differences etc. I know for a fact he never went home to cry about it, it was what it was, good fun. You had to have a thick skin in that environment. The accounts team hated us and all the yelling and banter that went round. We were extremely cautious so as not to offend them and get in trouble.
Not sure how much of what has gone on in the cricket examples was like what happened above or genuine racism. It seems a very murky line.
Moral of that story is to pick your audience.
Maybe I'm the SJW you referring to, but I don't like this distinction.
There is a brilliant comment on the planet rugby version of this thread that sums up the issue very well. I am quoting it in full, by mabunch78.
The thing that I think a lot of people don't get about the type of 'banter' that's been cited is, whether deployed maliciously or not, it functions to control by isolating people and setting up their 'otherness'. To the hypothetical utterer, it's a casual, almost amusing quip, possibly intended to lighten the atmosphere and foster camaraderie - I'm sure this is likely the case if Vaughan happened to do so. But to the subject, I've no doubt it weighs much more heavily as a reinforcement of their apparently unwelcome otherness, and if they give even the slightest hint of not accepting it in the way intended, their otherness is made more apparent and they will be less accepted. So in other words, it functions as a passive-aggressive marker that traps, controls or subjugates the subject, whether intended or not.
I am uncomfortable with you Sione story above, because it really does not have a place in work environment. Your intentions can be as pure as a very pure thing, but it has no place in a work or team environment.
There is no problem with risky jokes and dealing with harmful stereotypes is better than leaving them unsaid - but there is a time and place for them. At the pub with a very tight group where you are certain that joke will land as intended is fine. That little voice that tells you it might be an issue is actually telling you that the joke is adding toxicity to an environment.
I'll admit I've made the same kinda jokes (and far far worse), and I don't for second think my intentions or mindset was to hurt anyone, but that sort of behaviour is a problem regardless of the actual racism (whatever that word means anyway).
Oh it would certainly be unacceptable in most work places that’s for sure. Whenever I catch up with anyone from there for a beer we always bring up all the hilariously fucked up shit that went on and shake our heads.
It was acceptable there and we were fine with that. Believe me Sione woulda cracked a skull or two if he found it offensive. I don’t think it set up any ‘otherness’ at all but again, it was a unique environment, the sales manager warned new people about it when they were interviewed which naturally got rid of a few on the spot.
So as I said above, gotta pick your audiences, if anyone was upset about anything that went on it would have stopped cos under the bullshit and the bluster most people who worked there were genuinely good sorts.
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@sidbarret said in Racism in England Cricket:
@mn5 said in Racism in England Cricket:
@majorrage said in Racism in England Cricket:
@majorrage said in Racism in England Cricket:
Comes as zero surprise to me.
My son is a member of a club and it’s got quite a few non whites in it. The kids mix and don’t see anything. But at the prize giving it was like a licorice all sort crowd. White parents here, brown parents there.
I will add tho, that it cut both ways.
This post wasn't really clear.
One thing that always irks me a bit is the idea that we are all the same and must be treated the same. Well, that's just not true. Everybody deserves equal opportunities and the same sense of justice / appreciation, but reality is that a lot of immigrant / immigrant descendant people in this country have fuck all in common with the British when it comes to socialising - which is a huge part of team Sport. Vaughn is really in the firing line, but I wonder if his point was perhaps about trying to talk about integration, and he crossed a line.
I'll try and explain this without coming across like a bigoted arsehole. I have a 7 and a 9 year old and there is a huge community feel to our school. And I won't lie, it's awesome. They made us feel really welcome, we have a large circle of friends because of it and it's very very diverse. We have camps, dinners, balls etc. Standard stuff. I would say in each year, there are 5 Pakistani / Muslim families. I get on well with them, often chatting at pick up, talking about all sorts. But here's the thing.
They never go to the camps. Ever. They never go to the balls. Ever. They never go to the charity events. Ever. Occasionally you'll get 1-2 at the dad meet ups, and they don't drink and usually go home early. None of this changes what I think of them, it's just a fact. I'll probably see a couple of drop off tomorrow and we'll talk about the cricket as well as other things. And it'll be nice.
But some lines are never ever crossed, and others rarely. I'm not sure that sort of spirit really works in a team-sport environment & i can see how that could create tension. It doesn't excuse crossing lines, never. But perhaps when comments such as England cricket is institutionally racist there is a bit more to it. I know the world is supposed to be one big friendly melting pot, especially Britain & the US. But almost all of the social problems of these 2 countries come from the fact that multi ethnicity integration has its drawbacks. This to me, just seems like another in an ever-growing list.
Doesn't make those making the comments right, not at all. But lets face it, cricket is a basically a piss up played by lads. You are either one of them, or you aren't.
You didn’t, but the problem is in the era of cancel culture you will to any SJW who wants to get on the bandwagon and encourage anyone to complain.
When I worked at telecom some printer toner cartridge went missing. It was brought up at a sales meeting. Someone joked that ‘Sione’ ( not his real name ) took it. He pretended to be outraged and said ‘it’s cos I’m black isn’t it?’ Genuine good hearted hilarity all round, laughing at each others differences etc. I know for a fact he never went home to cry about it, it was what it was, good fun. You had to have a thick skin in that environment. The accounts team hated us and all the yelling and banter that went round. We were extremely cautious so as not to offend them and get in trouble.
Not sure how much of what has gone on in the cricket examples was like what happened above or genuine racism. It seems a very murky line.
Moral of that story is to pick your audience.
Maybe I'm the SJW you referring to, but I don't like this distinction.
There is a brilliant comment on the planet rugby version of this thread that sums up the issue very well. I am quoting it in full, by mabunch78.
The thing that I think a lot of people don't get about the type of 'banter' that's been cited is, whether deployed maliciously or not, it functions to control by isolating people and setting up their 'otherness'. To the hypothetical utterer, it's a casual, almost amusing quip, possibly intended to lighten the atmosphere and foster camaraderie - I'm sure this is likely the case if Vaughan happened to do so. But to the subject, I've no doubt it weighs much more heavily as a reinforcement of their apparently unwelcome otherness, and if they give even the slightest hint of not accepting it in the way intended, their otherness is made more apparent and they will be less accepted. So in other words, it functions as a passive-aggressive marker that traps, controls or subjugates the subject, whether intended or not.
I am uncomfortable with you Sione story above, because it really does not have a place in work environment. Your intentions can be as pure as a very pure thing, but it has no place in a work or team environment.
There is no problem with risky jokes and dealing with harmful stereotypes is better than leaving them unsaid - but there is a time and place for them. At the pub with a very tight group where you are certain that joke will land as intended is fine. That little voice that tells you it might be an issue is actually telling you that the joke is adding toxicity to an environment.
I'll admit I've made the same kinda jokes (and far far worse), and I don't for second think my intentions or mindset was to hurt anyone, but that sort of behaviour is a problem regardless of the actual racism (whatever that word means anyway).
The issue I have with cultural sensitivity and wariness around humour because of race, is that it causes people to be too frightened to build rapport and communicate with other humans as equals - and actually increases divisive behaviour. You are always looking at the other persons skin colour as a reference rather than as a fellow human being. Call me simplistic, but that sounds like racial stereotyping to me - inadvertent and unconscious - but still racial stereotyping and very divisive.
Though it can be uncomfortable at times, humour and laughing with and at each other is an important part of the human condition and pretty key to breaking down barriers, building mutual respect and teamwork (particularly under stress)
Sure, a few people may be offended and we need to stop abusive stuff but I'd argue a heck of a lot of worse harms come about by being overly-sensitive to skin colour and race - e.g. the Asian grooming & sex gangs cover-up.
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@victor-meldrew said in Racism in England Cricket:
@sidbarret said in Racism in England Cricket:
@mn5 said in Racism in England Cricket:
@majorrage said in Racism in England Cricket:
@majorrage said in Racism in England Cricket:
Comes as zero surprise to me.
My son is a member of a club and it’s got quite a few non whites in it. The kids mix and don’t see anything. But at the prize giving it was like a licorice all sort crowd. White parents here, brown parents there.
I will add tho, that it cut both ways.
This post wasn't really clear.
One thing that always irks me a bit is the idea that we are all the same and must be treated the same. Well, that's just not true. Everybody deserves equal opportunities and the same sense of justice / appreciation, but reality is that a lot of immigrant / immigrant descendant people in this country have fuck all in common with the British when it comes to socialising - which is a huge part of team Sport. Vaughn is really in the firing line, but I wonder if his point was perhaps about trying to talk about integration, and he crossed a line.
I'll try and explain this without coming across like a bigoted arsehole. I have a 7 and a 9 year old and there is a huge community feel to our school. And I won't lie, it's awesome. They made us feel really welcome, we have a large circle of friends because of it and it's very very diverse. We have camps, dinners, balls etc. Standard stuff. I would say in each year, there are 5 Pakistani / Muslim families. I get on well with them, often chatting at pick up, talking about all sorts. But here's the thing.
They never go to the camps. Ever. They never go to the balls. Ever. They never go to the charity events. Ever. Occasionally you'll get 1-2 at the dad meet ups, and they don't drink and usually go home early. None of this changes what I think of them, it's just a fact. I'll probably see a couple of drop off tomorrow and we'll talk about the cricket as well as other things. And it'll be nice.
But some lines are never ever crossed, and others rarely. I'm not sure that sort of spirit really works in a team-sport environment & i can see how that could create tension. It doesn't excuse crossing lines, never. But perhaps when comments such as England cricket is institutionally racist there is a bit more to it. I know the world is supposed to be one big friendly melting pot, especially Britain & the US. But almost all of the social problems of these 2 countries come from the fact that multi ethnicity integration has its drawbacks. This to me, just seems like another in an ever-growing list.
Doesn't make those making the comments right, not at all. But lets face it, cricket is a basically a piss up played by lads. You are either one of them, or you aren't.
You didn’t, but the problem is in the era of cancel culture you will to any SJW who wants to get on the bandwagon and encourage anyone to complain.
When I worked at telecom some printer toner cartridge went missing. It was brought up at a sales meeting. Someone joked that ‘Sione’ ( not his real name ) took it. He pretended to be outraged and said ‘it’s cos I’m black isn’t it?’ Genuine good hearted hilarity all round, laughing at each others differences etc. I know for a fact he never went home to cry about it, it was what it was, good fun. You had to have a thick skin in that environment. The accounts team hated us and all the yelling and banter that went round. We were extremely cautious so as not to offend them and get in trouble.
Not sure how much of what has gone on in the cricket examples was like what happened above or genuine racism. It seems a very murky line.
Moral of that story is to pick your audience.
Maybe I'm the SJW you referring to, but I don't like this distinction.
There is a brilliant comment on the planet rugby version of this thread that sums up the issue very well. I am quoting it in full, by mabunch78.
The thing that I think a lot of people don't get about the type of 'banter' that's been cited is, whether deployed maliciously or not, it functions to control by isolating people and setting up their 'otherness'. To the hypothetical utterer, it's a casual, almost amusing quip, possibly intended to lighten the atmosphere and foster camaraderie - I'm sure this is likely the case if Vaughan happened to do so. But to the subject, I've no doubt it weighs much more heavily as a reinforcement of their apparently unwelcome otherness, and if they give even the slightest hint of not accepting it in the way intended, their otherness is made more apparent and they will be less accepted. So in other words, it functions as a passive-aggressive marker that traps, controls or subjugates the subject, whether intended or not.
I am uncomfortable with you Sione story above, because it really does not have a place in work environment. Your intentions can be as pure as a very pure thing, but it has no place in a work or team environment.
There is no problem with risky jokes and dealing with harmful stereotypes is better than leaving them unsaid - but there is a time and place for them. At the pub with a very tight group where you are certain that joke will land as intended is fine. That little voice that tells you it might be an issue is actually telling you that the joke is adding toxicity to an environment.
I'll admit I've made the same kinda jokes (and far far worse), and I don't for second think my intentions or mindset was to hurt anyone, but that sort of behaviour is a problem regardless of the actual racism (whatever that word means anyway).
The issue I have with cultural sensitivity and wariness around humour because of race, is that it causes people to be too frightened to build rapport and communicate with other humans as equals - and actually increases divisive behaviour. You are always looking at the other persons skin colour as a reference rather than as a fellow human being. Call me simplistic, but that sounds like racial stereotyping to me - inadvertent and unconscious - but still racial stereotyping and very divisive.
Though it can be uncomfortable at times, humour and laughing with and at each other is an important part of the human condition and pretty key to breaking down barriers, building mutual respect and teamwork (particularly under stress)
Sure, a few people may be offended and we need to stop abusive stuff but I'd argue a heck of a lot of worse harms come about by being overly-sensitive to skin colour and race - e.g. the Asian grooming & sex gangs cover-up.
What exactly did Vaughan supposedly say ? Too many of ‘you lot’ or whatever ?
I’d put that somewhere near the bottom of any offensive racism I’ve ever heard. That comment alone seems to me that the guy complaining may be a bit over sensitive
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@mn5 said in Racism in England Cricket:
@victor-meldrew said in Racism in England Cricket:
@sidbarret said in Racism in England Cricket:
@mn5 said in Racism in England Cricket:
@majorrage said in Racism in England Cricket:
@majorrage said in Racism in England Cricket:
Comes as zero surprise to me.
My son is a member of a club and it’s got quite a few non whites in it. The kids mix and don’t see anything. But at the prize giving it was like a licorice all sort crowd. White parents here, brown parents there.
I will add tho, that it cut both ways.
This post wasn't really clear.
One thing that always irks me a bit is the idea that we are all the same and must be treated the same. Well, that's just not true. Everybody deserves equal opportunities and the same sense of justice / appreciation, but reality is that a lot of immigrant / immigrant descendant people in this country have fuck all in common with the British when it comes to socialising - which is a huge part of team Sport. Vaughn is really in the firing line, but I wonder if his point was perhaps about trying to talk about integration, and he crossed a line.
I'll try and explain this without coming across like a bigoted arsehole. I have a 7 and a 9 year old and there is a huge community feel to our school. And I won't lie, it's awesome. They made us feel really welcome, we have a large circle of friends because of it and it's very very diverse. We have camps, dinners, balls etc. Standard stuff. I would say in each year, there are 5 Pakistani / Muslim families. I get on well with them, often chatting at pick up, talking about all sorts. But here's the thing.
They never go to the camps. Ever. They never go to the balls. Ever. They never go to the charity events. Ever. Occasionally you'll get 1-2 at the dad meet ups, and they don't drink and usually go home early. None of this changes what I think of them, it's just a fact. I'll probably see a couple of drop off tomorrow and we'll talk about the cricket as well as other things. And it'll be nice.
But some lines are never ever crossed, and others rarely. I'm not sure that sort of spirit really works in a team-sport environment & i can see how that could create tension. It doesn't excuse crossing lines, never. But perhaps when comments such as England cricket is institutionally racist there is a bit more to it. I know the world is supposed to be one big friendly melting pot, especially Britain & the US. But almost all of the social problems of these 2 countries come from the fact that multi ethnicity integration has its drawbacks. This to me, just seems like another in an ever-growing list.
Doesn't make those making the comments right, not at all. But lets face it, cricket is a basically a piss up played by lads. You are either one of them, or you aren't.
You didn’t, but the problem is in the era of cancel culture you will to any SJW who wants to get on the bandwagon and encourage anyone to complain.
When I worked at telecom some printer toner cartridge went missing. It was brought up at a sales meeting. Someone joked that ‘Sione’ ( not his real name ) took it. He pretended to be outraged and said ‘it’s cos I’m black isn’t it?’ Genuine good hearted hilarity all round, laughing at each others differences etc. I know for a fact he never went home to cry about it, it was what it was, good fun. You had to have a thick skin in that environment. The accounts team hated us and all the yelling and banter that went round. We were extremely cautious so as not to offend them and get in trouble.
Not sure how much of what has gone on in the cricket examples was like what happened above or genuine racism. It seems a very murky line.
Moral of that story is to pick your audience.
Maybe I'm the SJW you referring to, but I don't like this distinction.
There is a brilliant comment on the planet rugby version of this thread that sums up the issue very well. I am quoting it in full, by mabunch78.
The thing that I think a lot of people don't get about the type of 'banter' that's been cited is, whether deployed maliciously or not, it functions to control by isolating people and setting up their 'otherness'. To the hypothetical utterer, it's a casual, almost amusing quip, possibly intended to lighten the atmosphere and foster camaraderie - I'm sure this is likely the case if Vaughan happened to do so. But to the subject, I've no doubt it weighs much more heavily as a reinforcement of their apparently unwelcome otherness, and if they give even the slightest hint of not accepting it in the way intended, their otherness is made more apparent and they will be less accepted. So in other words, it functions as a passive-aggressive marker that traps, controls or subjugates the subject, whether intended or not.
I am uncomfortable with you Sione story above, because it really does not have a place in work environment. Your intentions can be as pure as a very pure thing, but it has no place in a work or team environment.
There is no problem with risky jokes and dealing with harmful stereotypes is better than leaving them unsaid - but there is a time and place for them. At the pub with a very tight group where you are certain that joke will land as intended is fine. That little voice that tells you it might be an issue is actually telling you that the joke is adding toxicity to an environment.
I'll admit I've made the same kinda jokes (and far far worse), and I don't for second think my intentions or mindset was to hurt anyone, but that sort of behaviour is a problem regardless of the actual racism (whatever that word means anyway).
The issue I have with cultural sensitivity and wariness around humour because of race, is that it causes people to be too frightened to build rapport and communicate with other humans as equals - and actually increases divisive behaviour. You are always looking at the other persons skin colour as a reference rather than as a fellow human being. Call me simplistic, but that sounds like racial stereotyping to me - inadvertent and unconscious - but still racial stereotyping and very divisive.
Though it can be uncomfortable at times, humour and laughing with and at each other is an important part of the human condition and pretty key to breaking down barriers, building mutual respect and teamwork (particularly under stress)
Sure, a few people may be offended and we need to stop abusive stuff but I'd argue a heck of a lot of worse harms come about by being overly-sensitive to skin colour and race - e.g. the Asian grooming & sex gangs cover-up.
What exactly did Vaughan supposedly say ? Too many of ‘you lot’ or whatever ?
I’d put that somewhere near the bottom of any offensive racism I’ve ever heard.
Tense meeting in the IT Department with a customer project going badly wrong. Client department IT Manager is Indian and things are getting tense and shouty.
One of my team is Pakistani/Kashmiri and bangs his fist on the table and says loudly "You know what the problem with this project is? Too many chiefs....not enough..... Pakistanis!".
The laughter broke the tension around the project, got people working together and it got fixed pronto. I doubt you'd get away with that today
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@victor-meldrew said in Racism in England Cricket:
@mn5 said in Racism in England Cricket:
@victor-meldrew said in Racism in England Cricket:
@sidbarret said in Racism in England Cricket:
@mn5 said in Racism in England Cricket:
@majorrage said in Racism in England Cricket:
@majorrage said in Racism in England Cricket:
Comes as zero surprise to me.
My son is a member of a club and it’s got quite a few non whites in it. The kids mix and don’t see anything. But at the prize giving it was like a licorice all sort crowd. White parents here, brown parents there.
I will add tho, that it cut both ways.
This post wasn't really clear.
One thing that always irks me a bit is the idea that we are all the same and must be treated the same. Well, that's just not true. Everybody deserves equal opportunities and the same sense of justice / appreciation, but reality is that a lot of immigrant / immigrant descendant people in this country have fuck all in common with the British when it comes to socialising - which is a huge part of team Sport. Vaughn is really in the firing line, but I wonder if his point was perhaps about trying to talk about integration, and he crossed a line.
I'll try and explain this without coming across like a bigoted arsehole. I have a 7 and a 9 year old and there is a huge community feel to our school. And I won't lie, it's awesome. They made us feel really welcome, we have a large circle of friends because of it and it's very very diverse. We have camps, dinners, balls etc. Standard stuff. I would say in each year, there are 5 Pakistani / Muslim families. I get on well with them, often chatting at pick up, talking about all sorts. But here's the thing.
They never go to the camps. Ever. They never go to the balls. Ever. They never go to the charity events. Ever. Occasionally you'll get 1-2 at the dad meet ups, and they don't drink and usually go home early. None of this changes what I think of them, it's just a fact. I'll probably see a couple of drop off tomorrow and we'll talk about the cricket as well as other things. And it'll be nice.
But some lines are never ever crossed, and others rarely. I'm not sure that sort of spirit really works in a team-sport environment & i can see how that could create tension. It doesn't excuse crossing lines, never. But perhaps when comments such as England cricket is institutionally racist there is a bit more to it. I know the world is supposed to be one big friendly melting pot, especially Britain & the US. But almost all of the social problems of these 2 countries come from the fact that multi ethnicity integration has its drawbacks. This to me, just seems like another in an ever-growing list.
Doesn't make those making the comments right, not at all. But lets face it, cricket is a basically a piss up played by lads. You are either one of them, or you aren't.
You didn’t, but the problem is in the era of cancel culture you will to any SJW who wants to get on the bandwagon and encourage anyone to complain.
When I worked at telecom some printer toner cartridge went missing. It was brought up at a sales meeting. Someone joked that ‘Sione’ ( not his real name ) took it. He pretended to be outraged and said ‘it’s cos I’m black isn’t it?’ Genuine good hearted hilarity all round, laughing at each others differences etc. I know for a fact he never went home to cry about it, it was what it was, good fun. You had to have a thick skin in that environment. The accounts team hated us and all the yelling and banter that went round. We were extremely cautious so as not to offend them and get in trouble.
Not sure how much of what has gone on in the cricket examples was like what happened above or genuine racism. It seems a very murky line.
Moral of that story is to pick your audience.
Maybe I'm the SJW you referring to, but I don't like this distinction.
There is a brilliant comment on the planet rugby version of this thread that sums up the issue very well. I am quoting it in full, by mabunch78.
The thing that I think a lot of people don't get about the type of 'banter' that's been cited is, whether deployed maliciously or not, it functions to control by isolating people and setting up their 'otherness'. To the hypothetical utterer, it's a casual, almost amusing quip, possibly intended to lighten the atmosphere and foster camaraderie - I'm sure this is likely the case if Vaughan happened to do so. But to the subject, I've no doubt it weighs much more heavily as a reinforcement of their apparently unwelcome otherness, and if they give even the slightest hint of not accepting it in the way intended, their otherness is made more apparent and they will be less accepted. So in other words, it functions as a passive-aggressive marker that traps, controls or subjugates the subject, whether intended or not.
I am uncomfortable with you Sione story above, because it really does not have a place in work environment. Your intentions can be as pure as a very pure thing, but it has no place in a work or team environment.
There is no problem with risky jokes and dealing with harmful stereotypes is better than leaving them unsaid - but there is a time and place for them. At the pub with a very tight group where you are certain that joke will land as intended is fine. That little voice that tells you it might be an issue is actually telling you that the joke is adding toxicity to an environment.
I'll admit I've made the same kinda jokes (and far far worse), and I don't for second think my intentions or mindset was to hurt anyone, but that sort of behaviour is a problem regardless of the actual racism (whatever that word means anyway).
The issue I have with cultural sensitivity and wariness around humour because of race, is that it causes people to be too frightened to build rapport and communicate with other humans as equals - and actually increases divisive behaviour. You are always looking at the other persons skin colour as a reference rather than as a fellow human being. Call me simplistic, but that sounds like racial stereotyping to me - inadvertent and unconscious - but still racial stereotyping and very divisive.
Though it can be uncomfortable at times, humour and laughing with and at each other is an important part of the human condition and pretty key to breaking down barriers, building mutual respect and teamwork (particularly under stress)
Sure, a few people may be offended and we need to stop abusive stuff but I'd argue a heck of a lot of worse harms come about by being overly-sensitive to skin colour and race - e.g. the Asian grooming & sex gangs cover-up.
What exactly did Vaughan supposedly say ? Too many of ‘you lot’ or whatever ?
I’d put that somewhere near the bottom of any offensive racism I’ve ever heard.
Tense meeting in the IT Department with a customer project going badly wrong. Client department IT Manager is Indian and things are getting tense and shouty.
One of my team is Pakistani/Kashmiri and bangs his fist on the table and says loudly "You know what the problem with this project is? Too many chiefs....not enough..... Pakistanis!".
The laughter broke the tension around the project, got people working together and it got fixed pronto. I doubt you'd get away with that today
Outstanding…..but Azeem Rafiq would still find it offensive
Racism in England Cricket