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@sparky said in Racism in England Cricket:
I struggle to see how Yorkshire Cricket Club and the ECB in their current form can survive this. A dreadful lack of duty of care towards their players.
I'm not surprised.
I would say, though, it's not just racism, it's also clique-behaviour in teams. If you're not 'in', you're 'out'. And if yuo're 'out', then you're fair game for shitty racist banter disguised as jokes. And - if you speak up against it, you'll threaten your 'in' status... hence Root saying 'I didn't see anything'
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@sparky said in Racism in England Cricket:
I struggle to see how Yorkshire Cricket Club and the ECB in their current form can survive this. A dreadful lack of duty of care towards their players.
Couldn't quite believe what I was hearing. Banter is one thing but this sounded a bit like the stuff you'd hear at a BNP rally. And yet the YCC & their senior players let it go on.
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@majorrage said in Racism in England Cricket:
Comes as zero surprise to me.
My son is a member of a club and it’s got quite a few non whites in it. The kids mix and don’t see anything. But at the prize giving it was like a licorice all sort crowd. White parents here, brown parents there.
I will add tho, that it cut both ways.
I’d venture to say some of what went on was a bit of a laugh….not all by ther sounds of it though.
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@victor-meldrew said in Racism in England Cricket:
@sparky said in Racism in England Cricket:
I struggle to see how Yorkshire Cricket Club and the ECB in their current form can survive this. A dreadful lack of duty of care towards their players.
Couldn't quite believe what I was hearing. Banter is one thing but this sounded a bit like the stuff you'd hear at a BNP rally. And yet the YCC & their senior players let it go on.
This is going to snowball and if it eradicates the highlighted institutional racism that Azeem Rafiq talks to, then great. I’m concerned though that as this gains media momentum, it will drag in innocent bystanders. There must be some high profile players absolute shitting themselves at the moment that a remark by someone, will drag them into it.
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@scribe said in Racism in England Cricket:
@victor-meldrew said in Racism in England Cricket:
@sparky said in Racism in England Cricket:
I struggle to see how Yorkshire Cricket Club and the ECB in their current form can survive this. A dreadful lack of duty of care towards their players.
Couldn't quite believe what I was hearing. Banter is one thing but this sounded a bit like the stuff you'd hear at a BNP rally. And yet the YCC & their senior players let it go on.
This is going to snowball and if it eradicates the highlighted institutional racism that Azeem Rafiq talks to, then great. I’m concerned though that as this gains media momentum, it will drag in innocent bystanders. There must be some high profile players absolute shitting themselves at the moment that a remark by someone, will drag them into it.
Yep. Needs to be handled with common sense and avoiding character assassination if it's to be fixed properly. Not holding out much hope if it does snowball.
At least we don't have the same problem with Asian players being abused at Football clubs...
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@victor-meldrew Australia must think all their Christmases have come at once. Wangle a T20 final (winning 6/7 tosses along the way), Warner hitting form and the ECB potentially getting f**ked over. All less than a month out from the Ashes starting.
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@majorrage said in Racism in England Cricket:
Comes as zero surprise to me.
My son is a member of a club and it’s got quite a few non whites in it. The kids mix and don’t see anything. But at the prize giving it was like a licorice all sort crowd. White parents here, brown parents there.
I will add tho, that it cut both ways.
This post wasn't really clear.
One thing that always irks me a bit is the idea that we are all the same and must be treated the same. Well, that's just not true. Everybody deserves equal opportunities and the same sense of justice / appreciation, but reality is that a lot of immigrant / immigrant descendant people in this country have fuck all in common with the British when it comes to socialising - which is a huge part of team Sport. Vaughn is really in the firing line, but I wonder if his point was perhaps about trying to talk about integration, and he crossed a line.
I'll try and explain this without coming across like a bigoted arsehole. I have a 7 and a 9 year old and there is a huge community feel to our school. And I won't lie, it's awesome. They made us feel really welcome, we have a large circle of friends because of it and it's very very diverse. We have camps, dinners, balls etc. Standard stuff. I would say in each year, there are 5 Pakistani / Muslim families. I get on well with them, often chatting at pick up, talking about all sorts. But here's the thing.
They never go to the camps. Ever. They never go to the balls. Ever. They never go to the charity events. Ever. Occasionally you'll get 1-2 at the dad meet ups, and they don't drink and usually go home early. None of this changes what I think of them, it's just a fact. I'll probably see a couple of drop off tomorrow and we'll talk about the cricket as well as other things. And it'll be nice.
But some lines are never ever crossed, and others rarely. I'm not sure that sort of spirit really works in a team-sport environment & i can see how that could create tension. It doesn't excuse crossing lines, never. But perhaps when comments such as England cricket is institutionally racist there is a bit more to it. I know the world is supposed to be one big friendly melting pot, especially Britain & the US. But almost all of the social problems of these 2 countries come from the fact that multi ethnicity integration has its drawbacks. This to me, just seems like another in an ever-growing list.
Doesn't make those making the comments right, not at all. But lets face it, cricket is a basically a piss up played by lads. You are either one of them, or you aren't.
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I can’t wait for Robert Croft to ‘come out’ because as a Welshman playing for England I’m pretty sure he was called everything under the sun.
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@majorrage said in Racism in England Cricket:
@majorrage said in Racism in England Cricket:
Comes as zero surprise to me.
My son is a member of a club and it’s got quite a few non whites in it. The kids mix and don’t see anything. But at the prize giving it was like a licorice all sort crowd. White parents here, brown parents there.
I will add tho, that it cut both ways.
This post wasn't really clear.
One thing that always irks me a bit is the idea that we are all the same and must be treated the same. Well, that's just not true. Everybody deserves equal opportunities and the same sense of justice / appreciation, but reality is that a lot of immigrant / immigrant descendant people in this country have fuck all in common with the British when it comes to socialising - which is a huge part of team Sport. Vaughn is really in the firing line, but I wonder if his point was perhaps about trying to talk about integration, and he crossed a line.
I'll try and explain this without coming across like a bigoted arsehole. I have a 7 and a 9 year old and there is a huge community feel to our school. And I won't lie, it's awesome. They made us feel really welcome, we have a large circle of friends because of it and it's very very diverse. We have camps, dinners, balls etc. Standard stuff. I would say in each year, there are 5 Pakistani / Muslim families. I get on well with them, often chatting at pick up, talking about all sorts. But here's the thing.
They never go to the camps. Ever. They never go to the balls. Ever. They never go to the charity events. Ever. Occasionally you'll get 1-2 at the dad meet ups, and they don't drink and usually go home early. None of this changes what I think of them, it's just a fact. I'll probably see a couple of drop off tomorrow and we'll talk about the cricket as well as other things. And it'll be nice.
But some lines are never ever crossed, and others rarely. I'm not sure that sort of spirit really works in a team-sport environment & i can see how that could create tension. It doesn't excuse crossing lines, never. But perhaps when comments such as England cricket is institutionally racist there is a bit more to it. I know the world is supposed to be one big friendly melting pot, especially Britain & the US. But almost all of the social problems of these 2 countries come from the fact that multi ethnicity integration has its drawbacks. This to me, just seems like another in an ever-growing list.
Doesn't make those making the comments right, not at all. But lets face it, cricket is a basically a piss up played by lads. You are either one of them, or you aren't.
You didn’t, but the problem is in the era of cancel culture you will to any SJW who wants to get on the bandwagon and encourage anyone to complain.
When I worked at telecom some printer toner cartridge went missing. It was brought up at a sales meeting. Someone joked that ‘Sione’ ( not his real name ) took it. He pretended to be outraged and said ‘it’s cos I’m black isn’t it?’ Genuine good hearted hilarity all round, laughing at each others differences etc. I know for a fact he never went home to cry about it, it was what it was, good fun. You had to have a thick skin in that environment. The accounts team hated us and all the yelling and banter that went round. We were extremely cautious so as not to offend them and get in trouble.
Not sure how much of what has gone on in the cricket examples was like what happened above or genuine racism. It seems a very murky line.
Moral of that story is to pick your audience.
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@mn5 Yeah, the overarching point I'm making though is that this is directly the Pakistan / Muslim community only.
British Indians, British Caribbean, Polish, South African ,Irish, Australian, American, Colombian all have significant representation (at least 2 families) and they get involved.
Honestly think a lot of it is drinking culture.
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@majorrage in a broadly similar situation , my son was playing football in the top football league (outside of football academies), in the South East. Excellent players but they finished towards the bottom of the comp. Half the team were white and the other half black. They all got on ok but there was no real team spirit; just 2 very distinct groups off the pitch that happened to play together. All of the parent volunteering and support of the team was provided by the parents of the white players (with one exception).
It made me sad that almost all of the black kids invariably had no family watching, supporting and encouraging them and sharing some of those special and proud moments we can have during childhood.
I know that there are probably a number of contributory reasons for this, but culture seems to play a massive part.
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@mn5 said in Racism in England Cricket:
@majorrage said in Racism in England Cricket:
@majorrage said in Racism in England Cricket:
Comes as zero surprise to me.
My son is a member of a club and it’s got quite a few non whites in it. The kids mix and don’t see anything. But at the prize giving it was like a licorice all sort crowd. White parents here, brown parents there.
I will add tho, that it cut both ways.
This post wasn't really clear.
One thing that always irks me a bit is the idea that we are all the same and must be treated the same. Well, that's just not true. Everybody deserves equal opportunities and the same sense of justice / appreciation, but reality is that a lot of immigrant / immigrant descendant people in this country have fuck all in common with the British when it comes to socialising - which is a huge part of team Sport. Vaughn is really in the firing line, but I wonder if his point was perhaps about trying to talk about integration, and he crossed a line.
I'll try and explain this without coming across like a bigoted arsehole. I have a 7 and a 9 year old and there is a huge community feel to our school. And I won't lie, it's awesome. They made us feel really welcome, we have a large circle of friends because of it and it's very very diverse. We have camps, dinners, balls etc. Standard stuff. I would say in each year, there are 5 Pakistani / Muslim families. I get on well with them, often chatting at pick up, talking about all sorts. But here's the thing.
They never go to the camps. Ever. They never go to the balls. Ever. They never go to the charity events. Ever. Occasionally you'll get 1-2 at the dad meet ups, and they don't drink and usually go home early. None of this changes what I think of them, it's just a fact. I'll probably see a couple of drop off tomorrow and we'll talk about the cricket as well as other things. And it'll be nice.
But some lines are never ever crossed, and others rarely. I'm not sure that sort of spirit really works in a team-sport environment & i can see how that could create tension. It doesn't excuse crossing lines, never. But perhaps when comments such as England cricket is institutionally racist there is a bit more to it. I know the world is supposed to be one big friendly melting pot, especially Britain & the US. But almost all of the social problems of these 2 countries come from the fact that multi ethnicity integration has its drawbacks. This to me, just seems like another in an ever-growing list.
Doesn't make those making the comments right, not at all. But lets face it, cricket is a basically a piss up played by lads. You are either one of them, or you aren't.
You didn’t, but the problem is in the era of cancel culture you will to any SJW who wants to get on the bandwagon and encourage anyone to complain.
When I worked at telecom some printer toner cartridge went missing. It was brought up at a sales meeting. Someone joked that ‘Sione’ ( not his real name ) took it. He pretended to be outraged and said ‘it’s cos I’m black isn’t it?’ Genuine good hearted hilarity all round, laughing at each others differences etc. I know for a fact he never went home to cry about it, it was what it was, good fun. You had to have a thick skin in that environment. The accounts team hated us and all the yelling and banter that went round. We were extremely cautious so as not to offend them and get in trouble.
Not sure how much of what has gone on in the cricket examples was like what happened above or genuine racism. It seems a very murky line.
Moral of that story is to pick your audience.
Maybe I'm the SJW you referring to, but I don't like this distinction.
There is a brilliant comment on the planet rugby version of this thread that sums up the issue very well. I am quoting it in full, by mabunch78.
The thing that I think a lot of people don't get about the type of 'banter' that's been cited is, whether deployed maliciously or not, it functions to control by isolating people and setting up their 'otherness'. To the hypothetical utterer, it's a casual, almost amusing quip, possibly intended to lighten the atmosphere and foster camaraderie - I'm sure this is likely the case if Vaughan happened to do so. But to the subject, I've no doubt it weighs much more heavily as a reinforcement of their apparently unwelcome otherness, and if they give even the slightest hint of not accepting it in the way intended, their otherness is made more apparent and they will be less accepted. So in other words, it functions as a passive-aggressive marker that traps, controls or subjugates the subject, whether intended or not.
I am uncomfortable with you Sione story above, because it really does not have a place in work environment. Your intentions can be as pure as a very pure thing, but it has no place in a work or team environment.
There is no problem with risky jokes and dealing with harmful stereotypes is better than leaving them unsaid - but there is a time and place for them. At the pub with a very tight group where you are certain that joke will land as intended is fine. That little voice that tells you it might be an issue is actually telling you that the joke is adding toxicity to an environment.
I'll admit I've made the same kinda jokes (and far far worse), and I don't for second think my intentions or mindset was to hurt anyone, but that sort of behaviour is a problem regardless of the actual racism (whatever that word means anyway).
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@sidbarret said in Racism in England Cricket:
I am uncomfortable with you Sione story above, because it really does not have a place in work environment. Your intentions can be as pure as a very pure thing, but it has no place in a work or team environment.
So that you means you have a problem with Sione. As you'll note he was the one to bring race into it.
There is no problem with risky jokes and dealing with harmful stereotypes is better than leaving them unsaid - but there is a time and place for them. At the pub with a very tight group where you are certain that joke will land as intended is fine. That little voice that tells you it might be an issue is actually telling you that the joke is adding toxicity to an environment.
I don't think you meant it like this, but heads up that whether the joke in the pub is fine or not, is not your distinction to make.
I'll admit I've made the same kinda jokes (and far far worse), and I don't for second think my intentions or mindset was to hurt anyone, but that sort of behaviour is a problem regardless of the actual racism (whatever that word means anyway).
I am happy to agree to disagree here. The majority changing to suit the minority is not what's about. People always have the right to push the boundaries and occasionally offend if they cross the line. When that happens they then have the right to apologise as no intention to offend, or make a deal out of it and face the consequences. These are peoples' decisions.
Nobody has the right to get offended on other people's behalf & force consequences on them. Yes, they can point out it's not acceptable and expect an apology, but you shouldn't have to face sanctions if you crack a ill-timed joke in front of an SJW warrior who decided to get uppity.
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The situation you discribe is so common and goes to heart of the struggles a lot people have with living in multicultural society.
I sure as shit don't have clue how to deal with it, but I would just want add something to that - have the family/dad groups ever actively thought of doing bonding sessions other than barbeque-and-beer meet ups that, for lack of a better word, is so normal for the Christian-european groups?
Without wanting to get into the who multiculturalism vs integration discussion - sometimes for the health of group people need to do things a little differently than they did it before?
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My biggest problem with this whole situation is if player 1 called player 2 a useless fluffybunny and both players were of the same race everything would be fine.
As soon as there’s a mix in race, the player called a useless fluffybunny can pull the race card even though there was no racial connotation in the delivery.
Same goes with different sex.
Basically the person has to be taken out of the comment
‘That was shit’ but aimed directly at the person who is a useless fluffybunny.
Racism in England Cricket