Coronavirus - New Zealand
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@taniwharugby said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@majorrage surely someone in there is aware of S.M.A.R.T type goals in business?
The public service loves to talk about SMART goals, but my experience was that managers ignored the concept if it ran counter to their preferred goals or targets. It's also not workable to try to apply that to complex issues or scenarios where the problem is fuzzy or reliant on factors out of your control.
Set a target of whatever % vaccination rates we like, people are generally not legally required to get one, so the government has no legal way to achieve the goal if enough of the population simply refuse. If everything else is dependent on vaccination rates, they aren't necessarily achievable either, leaving a set of goals that weren't SMART.
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@crucial Here you go
The content is bollocks of course but that’s not the point. What matters is to show your thinking. Explain what you intend to do and tell people what their part in it is. If you don’t make it you can show people what part of the plan fell down. You’d tell people what initiatives you were going to use to get us to each vaccination milestone, using all the big brains and skill that you told us you had at the last election. Of course it’s not easy but the government has been telling us for ages how brilliant they are so get it done. The point of doing this is that really is what transparent means. There’s no hiding.
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@godder problem is, 90% isn't "A"chievable so you could have some who will look at it and go, well we will never get there, so why should I bother , I'm healthy (kinda like people who think thier vote doesn't matter so don't bother)
Instead we want 75% by end October, 85% by end November, 90% before Christmas...sure that is never attainable IMO but at least it gives shorter achievable goals...
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@taniwharugby Still the same ultimate problem though - the government has made vaccines as available as they can be more or less, DHBs are empowered to get out there and deliver by any means necessary (almost) so regional and local variations are available, vaccines are even mandated in some areas. That aside, people aren't legally required to get a vaccine, what else is the government left with?
Besides which, they did have goal of sorts - it was get set up to deliver 350,000 vaccinations per week. That's not %-based obviously, but it's still a delivery goal and they have achieved that.
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Stuff's analysis of the weekly MoH vaccination update.
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@jc said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@crucial Here you go
The content is bollocks of course but that’s not the point.
The content was the point. I know how to draw.
So many people screaming for a plan. I'm just asking 'a plan of what?'
Accusations that the govt are treating us like children but we need a picture to understand what is being done?
We know that level changes are based on a myriad of inter-related factors. Where/who/how many/known or 'mystery', contained or uncontained, used tracking or didn't etc. That has be explained over and over. Then there is the balance of MoH advice vs Govt desire to be pragmatic.
Vacc levels? Do we really want an arbitary number that then gets reneged on because large areas or affinity groups are not covered? Again, lots of nuance which is why I suspect a high 'target' has been set. It's the high target that will be lowered if coverage is generally good across the board. You cant lay that type of plan out because people. Fucktards will create divisions etc that won't help at all.
We know that health system upgrades are being done already. Doesn't need a picture.
We know that extra MIQ is constantly being looked for. We know that building something to cover everybody is impractical but that an 'at home'system is being trialled alongside possibility for just a 'Q' part being built.
We know whats happening in all these areas so what does a picture change? How does it affect the end result for anyone?
I don't, for a minute, believe that there isn't some left hand/right hand stuff going on among various depts tasked with finding and coordinating solutions. I also dont doubt that people are working hard to provide endless thought and policy without a lot of 'do'. That's the nature of public service. (just look at the debacle and waste around Mental Health)
A simplified 'plan' would be just that, 'simplified', and cause way too much problem to keep explaining over and over why underlying factors have changed.
IMO that's not treating us as if we can't understand these things, that's setting up failure and discord.I get the frustration for many people around many things because there is uncertainty. Just don't think that some simplified proposal around a complicated situation provides any certainty for them at all. In fact it treats them poorly as it pushes them away with platitudes.
And that's my biggest gripe against the handling as things have gone on. I get how at the start this was meant to be short, sharp pain and we did show resilience and set about putting things right. Delta has shown a different face though and the cries of pain are falling on seemingly deaf ears. This is where 'a plan' to address those badly affected needs to be put out. We've gone past wage subsidy effectiveness for small business. The bad social impacts are coming to the fore now and the lack of messaging in that area appears like resigning to 'casualties'
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I'm hanging onto the prospect of returning to work on Wednesday. It would be nice to get more than 2 days notice though. These people have no idea what it takes to operate a business
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@jc said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
The content is bollocks of course but that’s not the point. What matters is to show your thinking. Explain what you intend to do and tell people what their part in it is. If you don’t make it you can show people what part of the plan fell down. You’d tell people what initiatives you were going to use to get us to each vaccination milestone, using all the big brains and skill that you told us you had at the last election. Of course it’s not easy but the government has been telling us for ages how brilliant they are so get it done. The point of doing this is that really is what transparent means. There’s no hiding.
Nice plan (or roadmap), you could go into Government
Transparency is the key. You can look at our UK cases or hospitalisations but the reason for the full opening in UK summer was not recklessness, it was to spread the expected caseload upon opening, and therefore moderate the spike in winter hospitalisations, reducing or hopefully removing the need for further restrictions.
This was communicated. The models are out there. You can choose to agree or disagree but so far so good imo (big spike in 10-14 year olds here though).
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@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@jc said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@crucial Here you go
The content is bollocks of course but that’s not the point.
The content was the point. I know how to draw.
So many people screaming for a plan. I'm just asking 'a plan of what?'
I've ignored the rest of your drivel. as it looked to be your typical "I'm pretending to know something I know nothing about" type posts which are very commonplace for you now, but what I do have to ask is, do you really have no idea on what plan people want to see? Really?
Are you typing in here with your eyes closed?
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@hooroo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@jc said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@crucial Here you go
The content is bollocks of course but that’s not the point.
The content was the point. I know how to draw.
So many people screaming for a plan. I'm just asking 'a plan of what?'
I've ignored the rest of your drivel. as it looked to be your typical "I'm pretending to know something I know nothing about" type posts which are very commonplace for you now, but what I do have to ask is, do you really have no idea on what plan people want to see? Really?
Are you typing in here with your eyes closed?
Great. Comment on something through guesswork.
That's why I asked the question for which I still haven't seen an answer.
I've seen an example of a plan with irrelevant content.
Content is key.What do you want to see that we don't already know?
The 'roadmap' in simple terms is already there. Vaccinate and we can open more and have less restrictions, until then we will be waiting for piecemeal changes based on current climate. -
@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
Delta has shown a different face though and the cries of pain are falling on seemingly deaf ears
Beta then Delta haven't changed a thing fundamentally, just that the 5% worldwide of scientists and epidemiologists pushing for elimination got real because that's just impossible long-term with a base R of 6-7.
And for the 10% of scientists and epidemiologists promoting "vax the elderly and vulnerable, let it run" (google "Great Barrington Declaration") shit also got real because it's more infectious and dangerous than Alpha.
But I don't think Delta changed the UK's plan for opening up much at all. We opened up after everyone had had the opportunity to be vaccinated.
What is has done is -
- Push the case for vaccinating younger people i.e. 12-15 age group (not done before opening up, and not ideal).
- Made the govt and people aware that it's such an infectious f_ck_r than some restrictions may still be needed this winter, worst case (perhaps public-space masking mandates and working from home at most imho).
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@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@hooroo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@jc said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@crucial Here you go
The content is bollocks of course but that’s not the point.
The content was the point. I know how to draw.
So many people screaming for a plan. I'm just asking 'a plan of what?'
I've ignored the rest of your drivel. as it looked to be your typical "I'm pretending to know something I know nothing about" type posts which are very commonplace for you now, but what I do have to ask is, do you really have no idea on what plan people want to see? Really?
Are you typing in here with your eyes closed?
Great. Comment on something through guesswork.
That's why I asked the question for which I still haven't seen an answer.
I've seen an example of a plan with irrelevant content.
Content is key.What do you want to see that we don't already know?
The 'roadmap' in simple terms is already there. Vaccinate and we can open more and have less restrictions, until then we will be waiting for piecemeal changes based on current climate.Targets, Goals, relatable outcomes on those, dates, who is allowed to come visit, future of MIQ you know, the answer to what we are all living right now.
I don't know the plan, do you? If you think you do, can you tell me what level of vax is required for us to have open borders? IF that isn't achieved what date will we open?
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@hooroo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@hooroo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@jc said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@crucial Here you go
The content is bollocks of course but that’s not the point.
The content was the point. I know how to draw.
So many people screaming for a plan. I'm just asking 'a plan of what?'
I've ignored the rest of your drivel. as it looked to be your typical "I'm pretending to know something I know nothing about" type posts which are very commonplace for you now, but what I do have to ask is, do you really have no idea on what plan people want to see? Really?
Are you typing in here with your eyes closed?
Great. Comment on something through guesswork.
That's why I asked the question for which I still haven't seen an answer.
I've seen an example of a plan with irrelevant content.
Content is key.What do you want to see that we don't already know?
The 'roadmap' in simple terms is already there. Vaccinate and we can open more and have less restrictions, until then we will be waiting for piecemeal changes based on current climate.Targets, Goals, relatable outcomes on those, dates, who is allowed to come visit, future of MIQ you know, the answer to what we are all living right now.
I don't know the plan, do you? If you think you do, can you tell me what level of vax is required for us to have open borders? IF that isn't achieved what date will we open?
Before re-opening also identify (applies across all/any levels of vaccination) -
- Thresholds on hospitalisations and ICU load (+ linked to relationship to case levels, as that's what people in NZ focus on for now)
- Likely escalation of controls needed locally and MIQ depending on hospitalisation level escalations
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@l_n_p I take your point but I don'yt think you can validly compare the UK and NZ. Boris was always a reluctant lockdowner, the UK had been through a pile of misery and people were over it.
the Blessed St Cindy has always been prepared to lockdown and has a low tolerance for any deaths, NZ has by comparison had it pretty sweet and the majority of Kiwi's are still very supportive of the govt's 'strategy'.
I don't think people overseas can realise or believe how much support the elimination strategy still has. Yes there are people who are emphatically opposed to it, but outside of Akl and the tourism industry - not so much. Last Summer was pretty much business as usual. If you live in Dunedin and don't want to go overseas or are in some other way directly affected - what's the issue? This is a very prevalent position.
There's a (smallish) degree of sympathy over the MIQ situation but this outweighed by a quite disturbing amount of "serves them right"
1.5 Mill unhappy Kiwi's still gives Cindy 70% support.
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@crucial So your answer is it's too complex to explain so they don't have to? Sorry I don't believe that. I've yet to see any situation where planning is anything except beneficial. And I've also yet to see any initiative or project where giving people less information is better.
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@hooroo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@hooroo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@jc said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@crucial Here you go
The content is bollocks of course but that’s not the point.
The content was the point. I know how to draw.
So many people screaming for a plan. I'm just asking 'a plan of what?'
I've ignored the rest of your drivel. as it looked to be your typical "I'm pretending to know something I know nothing about" type posts which are very commonplace for you now, but what I do have to ask is, do you really have no idea on what plan people want to see? Really?
Are you typing in here with your eyes closed?
Great. Comment on something through guesswork.
That's why I asked the question for which I still haven't seen an answer.
I've seen an example of a plan with irrelevant content.
Content is key.What do you want to see that we don't already know?
The 'roadmap' in simple terms is already there. Vaccinate and we can open more and have less restrictions, until then we will be waiting for piecemeal changes based on current climate.Targets, Goals, relatable outcomes on those, dates, who is allowed to come visit, future of MIQ you know, the answer to what we are all living right now.
I don't know the plan, do you? If you think you do, can you tell me what level of vax is required for us to have open borders? IF that isn't achieved what date will we open?
Exactly. We want a roadmap because it would allow us to see the reasoning behind decisions being made. What we are currently getting are vague suggestions of what the next step will be without much of an idea of when or why it will happen.
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@majorrage said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
No idea why Cindy can't say, our maths tell us that we will have given everybody the opportunity to be double vaxxed by 15th November. We are giving a two week grace period after that, so everything opens on the 29th November. IF you've chosen not to get vaccinated by this point, that's your own problem.
I have a lot of sympathy with your pov.
Except the bolded bit. It won't be (just) their problem.
Our health system will still be expected to manage the results - to a favourable end. The govt will still get shit if people start dying - even if it is as a result of their own decisions , the opposition will start mischief making and their will be people calling for a lockdown.
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@tim said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@dogmeat said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
Except the bolded bit. It won't be (just) their problem.
Yeah, if the ICU is full and staff are overworked, then it's going to suck for anyone else who needs emergency care.
It's a no win situation. Meanwhile, the rest of the team of 5 million, especially those of us north of the Bombays, are being made to suffer because of this small group of bad team mates
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@dogmeat Actually I think I understand NZ pretty well.
The reality is they'll have a roadmap or plan with baseline assumptions like (say) 85% vaccination of 12+, MIQ as is for X months, pilot home isolation etc
The problem is that the likely roadmap (and some assumptions ) may be political suicide which is why everything is being drip-fed for now?