Coronavirus - Australia
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My 12 year old is.keen because the spoiled little toad misses travel
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@landp said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Is Australia planning to vaccinate 12-15 year olds?
If so is that with or without parental consent i.e. can your 13 year old rock up and get jabbed?
Our UK JCVI immunization group has basically just said they don't recommend it as health benefits to the 12-15 age group marginally don't outweigh some risks. But they've left a gap for the Government to over-rule. I suspect the JCVI group is hugely split on this as they've taken months to say this and it goes against what Europe and US are doing.
fwiw I support it, but with parental consent at 12-15. My teenager who's a little bit older was daily scanning pop-up vaccination events so she could get jabbed asap
From what I recall reading/understanding, their conclusion was that the health benefits to a healthy 12-15 y.o. slightly outweigh the risks, but not by a big enough margin for them to recommend it. But they did also acknowledge that there might be wider community benefits that would make it a good idea - I guess that means that they're less likely to pass it on to grandma, so even of it's of neutral benefit to that individual kid it could still be of benefit overall.
Which to me sounds like making it available to them is the obvious way to go.
On a side-note the headline in The Age was "Britain advises against vaccinating children". That's an appalling headline, totally misleading and is just going to encourage hesitancy.
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@gibbonrib In the UK the science has normally been pretty f*ing good but the political decision making less so.
In this case for sure the UK Government has been signalling for weeks it wants to allow all 12-15 to be vaccinated. The NHS has been prepped to do so. The JCVI has kind of made a "sitting on the fence decision" from what I read.
I think it's a bit like the Oz non-recommendation on AZ, flawed based on taking an over-narrow view ... but generally our UK science groups have been top-drawer. I still wonder if the core of it is a medical ethics discussion that got heated.
I suspect it is being managed/bumped upwords and that some unoffical discussions will happen so the Government can be the "bad guys" and take the political hit with anti-vaxers and also protective parents. This is just my hunch, let's see over the next few weeks.
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@gibbonrib said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Here's a great example of the kind of anti-Vic/Andrews pro-NSW/Berejiklian BS that we have to put up with from the Murdoch rags. This is toxic stuff, it's bad for Australia.
The solution is to do what the vast majority of Australians do and that's not get your news from Murdoch print.
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@gibbonrib said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Which to me sounds like making it available to them is the obvious way to go.
Kind of and my view also but legally kids own their bodies at 16 here (sorry clumsily worded).
If the parents and a 12-15 old agree on vaccination I think personally it's a no-brainer and this will be most cases (again 70-80%) so just get on with it.
But if the kids and parent don't agree, then it's a medical ethics minefield, imho.
If you say a 12-15 kid can decide, it breaks a million other precedents when they do/don't have to get parental consent ... contraception, access to puberty blockers for trans teenagers and pretty much everythig need parental consent up to 16 (there was a VERY controversial test case on trans kids recently here).
My gut feel is there's WAY more to this than meets the eye.
Our JCVI has never taken so long then given a sit-on-the-fence decision the whole pandemic. Normally they've approved stuff faster than other countries, taken a few risks, but made great vaccination calls that other countries have often followed downstream.
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@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@gibbonrib said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Here's a great example of the kind of anti-Vic/Andrews pro-NSW/Berejiklian BS that we have to put up with from the Murdoch rags. This is toxic stuff, it's bad for Australia.
The solution is to do what the vast majority of Australians do and that's not get your news from Murdoch print.
That's a solution I fully endorse, but I suspect that when you factor in the Murdoch print, TV and digital news then a majority probably do get it there
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@landp said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@gibbonrib In the UK the science has normally been pretty f*ing good but the political decision making less so.
In this case for sure the UK Government has been signalling for weeks it wants to allow all 12-15 to be vaccinated. The NHS has been prepped to do so. The JCVI has kind of made a "sitting on the fence decision" from what I read.
I think it's a bit like the Oz non-recommendation on AZ, flawed based on taking an over-narrow view ... but generally our UK science groups have been top-drawer. I still wonder if the core of it is a medical ethics discussion that got heated.
I suspect it is being managed/bumped upwords and that some unoffical discussions will happen so the Government can be the "bad guys" and take the political hit with anti-vaxers and also protective parents. This is just my hunch, let's see over the next few weeks.
Yeah agree with your reading. It sounds like that committee didn't recommend not to vax them, it just declined to recommend to do it, and passed the decision on the the CHOs/govt. Which sounds like exactly the type of of non-decision you'd expect if they just couldn't reach a unanimous decision
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@landp said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Is Australia planning to vaccinate 12-15 year olds?
There is some talk of it, but looking at the data you'd have to question why. The only person <20 recorded as a statistic was a 15 year old who unfortunately died from pneumococcal meningitis with covid. Meanwhile the other 12,100 confirmed cases...
I could understand if there was a variant that that age group was more susceptible to severe outcomes, but while we're trying to get 80% of the +16 age group vaccinated, you'd have to ask why.
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@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@landp said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Is Australia planning to vaccinate 12-15 year olds?
There is some talk of it, but looking at the data you'd have to question why. The only person <20 recorded as a statistic was a 15 year old who unfortunately died from pneumococcal meningitis with covid. Meanwhile the other 12,100 confirmed cases...
I could understand if there was a variant that that age group was more susceptible to severe outcomes, but while we're trying to get 80% of the +16 age group vaccinated, you'd have to ask why.
True, but how many of the older folk who did have bad outcomes caught it via kids' schools etc? If it reduces the spread it could be helpful. It's a complex question
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@gibbonrib Have you read the UK Daily Mail? We've lost our quality middle-of-the road media here. I used to buy the Times (somewhat right, but generally ok) or Independent as it used to be (centrist, slightly left).
The Times has moved to the right, I stopped my subscription. (Independent went online, slimmed down, moved left but is a pale immitation in quality terms anyway).
Now I read the leftie Guardian which has some excellent journalism and still does investigative journalism really well ... but have learned to avoid clicking on certain articles or authors (normally classified as ultra-woke by the Murdoch press) because I know I will regret it.
BBC for all it's zillion faults is still "okay" when I bother to look. I have an huge huge idealogical problem with the compulsory license fee (basically a BBC Tax) we pay but on balance now feel perhaps it's needed so it can retain it's quality and editorial independence.
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@gibbonrib said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@landp said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Is Australia planning to vaccinate 12-15 year olds?
There is some talk of it, but looking at the data you'd have to question why. The only person <20 recorded as a statistic was a 15 year old who unfortunately died from pneumococcal meningitis with covid. Meanwhile the other 12,100 confirmed cases...
I could understand if there was a variant that that age group was more susceptible to severe outcomes, but while we're trying to get 80% of the +16 age group vaccinated, you'd have to ask why.
True, but how many of the older folk who did have bad outcomes caught it via kids' schools etc? If it reduces the spread it could be helpful. It's a complex question
The older folk will be vaccinated.
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@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@gibbonrib said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@landp said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Is Australia planning to vaccinate 12-15 year olds?
There is some talk of it, but looking at the data you'd have to question why. The only person <20 recorded as a statistic was a 15 year old who unfortunately died from pneumococcal meningitis with covid. Meanwhile the other 12,100 confirmed cases...
I could understand if there was a variant that that age group was more susceptible to severe outcomes, but while we're trying to get 80% of the +16 age group vaccinated, you'd have to ask why.
True, but how many of the older folk who did have bad outcomes caught it via kids' schools etc? If it reduces the spread it could be helpful. It's a complex question
The older folk will be vaccinated.
Yeah, but vaccination doesn't totally stop transmission & severe illness / death, and it's still early days in terms of figuring out how much it will help - how long do benefits last, how much will they be reduced by new variants etc.
This is going to be here long term, it's going to be an ongoing balancing act of health outcomes vs measures we can take. Could be that vaccinating kids is a key part of reducing spread, and means we don't have to have other restrictions in place. Or maybe it won't, I don't know.
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@gibbonrib said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@landp said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Is Australia planning to vaccinate 12-15 year olds?
There is some talk of it, but looking at the data you'd have to question why. The only person <20 recorded as a statistic was a 15 year old who unfortunately died from pneumococcal meningitis with covid. Meanwhile the other 12,100 confirmed cases...
I could understand if there was a variant that that age group was more susceptible to severe outcomes, but while we're trying to get 80% of the +16 age group vaccinated, you'd have to ask why.
True, but how many of the older folk who did have bad outcomes caught it via kids' schools etc? If it reduces the spread it could be helpful. It's a complex question
Yeh it's about helping (stop) community spread vs ethics of vaccinating 12-15 age group with (or without) parental consent. I'm vaccinated, as are all my family.
I now suspect the JCVI have given a decision based on a their limited terms of reference (risk to the individual 12-15 year olds from Covid) and have bumped it upwards so the epidemiology/modelling (risk of infectious spread, another group) and wider government healthcare policy and medical ethics can be assessed.
That's my take, the people looking at this are not dummies.
It's a complex issue, unless you simply avoid the serious ethical discussions ... which I suspect is what is happening globally ... in which case it's bl**dy simple.
If I had a 12-year old who is strongly anti vax, what the h*ll would I do as a parent????????
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@gibbonrib said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@gibbonrib said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Here's a great example of the kind of anti-Vic/Andrews pro-NSW/Berejiklian BS that we have to put up with from the Murdoch rags. This is toxic stuff, it's bad for Australia.
The solution is to do what the vast majority of Australians do and that's not get your news from Murdoch print.
That's a solution I fully endorse, but I suspect that when you factor in the Murdoch print, TV and digital news then a majority probably do get it there
Channel 9, The Age, SMH, Canberra Times, Channel 10, Guardian, ABC/Channel 2, SBS, AFR, Channel 7/Seven West - thereās plenty of Andrews cheerleaders and Berejiklian haters in those outlets.
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@act-crusader said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@gibbonrib said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@gibbonrib said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Here's a great example of the kind of anti-Vic/Andrews pro-NSW/Berejiklian BS that we have to put up with from the Murdoch rags. This is toxic stuff, it's bad for Australia.
The solution is to do what the vast majority of Australians do and that's not get your news from Murdoch print.
That's a solution I fully endorse, but I suspect that when you factor in the Murdoch print, TV and digital news then a majority probably do get it there
Channel 9, The Age, SMH, Canberra Times, Channel 10, Guardian, ABC/Channel 2, SBS, AFR, Channel 7/Seven West - thereās plenty of Andrews cheerleaders and Berejiklian haters in those outlets.
Uhh... right
Sorry, that's not constructive. But if you think those are pro-Andrews / anti-GB then I'll have some of whatever you're smoking
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@gibbonrib said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@act-crusader said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@gibbonrib said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@gibbonrib said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Here's a great example of the kind of anti-Vic/Andrews pro-NSW/Berejiklian BS that we have to put up with from the Murdoch rags. This is toxic stuff, it's bad for Australia.
The solution is to do what the vast majority of Australians do and that's not get your news from Murdoch print.
That's a solution I fully endorse, but I suspect that when you factor in the Murdoch print, TV and digital news then a majority probably do get it there
Channel 9, The Age, SMH, Canberra Times, Channel 10, Guardian, ABC/Channel 2, SBS, AFR, Channel 7/Seven West - thereās plenty of Andrews cheerleaders and Berejiklian haters in those outlets.
Uhh... right
Sorry, that's not constructive. But if you think those are pro-Andrews / anti-GB then I'll have some of whatever you're smoking
I donāt smoke so canāt help you there, but you appear to have jumped on the Rudd / Turnbull bandwagon and their āletās blame Murdoch mediaā when every media outlet have a slanted view.
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@act-crusader said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@gibbonrib said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@act-crusader said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@gibbonrib said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@gibbonrib said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Here's a great example of the kind of anti-Vic/Andrews pro-NSW/Berejiklian BS that we have to put up with from the Murdoch rags. This is toxic stuff, it's bad for Australia.
The solution is to do what the vast majority of Australians do and that's not get your news from Murdoch print.
That's a solution I fully endorse, but I suspect that when you factor in the Murdoch print, TV and digital news then a majority probably do get it there
Channel 9, The Age, SMH, Canberra Times, Channel 10, Guardian, ABC/Channel 2, SBS, AFR, Channel 7/Seven West - thereās plenty of Andrews cheerleaders and Berejiklian haters in those outlets.
Uhh... right
Sorry, that's not constructive. But if you think those are pro-Andrews / anti-GB then I'll have some of whatever you're smoking
I donāt smoke so canāt help you there, but you appear to have jumped on the Rudd / Turnbull bandwagon and their āletās blame Murdoch mediaā when every media outlet have a slanted view.
Hardly, the observation of the effects of the Murdoch press predate those two hypocritical shitlarks by a very long time.
Saying all outlets are biased is a cop-out. You'll find the odd article critical of Gladys in those outlets you mentioned (and just as many of Andrews in most of them), but there's nothing remotely close to the Murdoch media
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@gibbonrib said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@gibbonrib said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@landp said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Is Australia planning to vaccinate 12-15 year olds?
There is some talk of it, but looking at the data you'd have to question why. The only person <20 recorded as a statistic was a 15 year old who unfortunately died from pneumococcal meningitis with covid. Meanwhile the other 12,100 confirmed cases...
I could understand if there was a variant that that age group was more susceptible to severe outcomes, but while we're trying to get 80% of the +16 age group vaccinated, you'd have to ask why.
True, but how many of the older folk who did have bad outcomes caught it via kids' schools etc? If it reduces the spread it could be helpful. It's a complex question
The older folk will be vaccinated.
Yeah, but vaccination doesn't totally stop transmission & severe illness / death, and it's still early days in terms of figuring out how much it will help - how long do benefits last, how much will they be reduced by new variants etc.
So it makes more sense to vaccinate the people who suffer severe outcomes. Once they're taken care of, then you can worry about the youngest cohort, who don't suffer the severe outcomes.