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<br><br><blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="571994" data-time="1460546113"><p>Firstly, this thread is incorrectly named isn't it? Lets call a spade a spade - it's an anti Muslim/Islam thread. I bet all of us on here live in pretty successful <strong>multicultural</strong> societies.<br><br>
snip<br><br>
Hell, even Enoch Powell would crack up at some of the end of civilisation comments on this thread.</p></blockquote>
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^ Fuck I wish I said that. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="572006" data-time="1460549904">
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<p><strong>I'd argue it wasn't so much criticism rather education, enlightenment and the realisation that alternative views exist and demonstrable methods lead to behaviour change</strong></p>
<p> </p>
<p>It might be splitting hairs but standing and yelling "you're fucking wrong!" doesn't achieve a lot in humans. Offering evidence based alternatives is the way to affect what people believe in my opinion. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>A lot of us believed homosexuality was wrong or that black people were all theives. Criticism of our views didn't affect us as much as evidence and explanation that our ideas were flawed</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>It's my belief that that method altered our perceptions of colour, equality and sexuality throughout history. Wiping out ideologies or criticising or banning people/things seldom has such a positive effect</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Criticism doesn't make people think, it just makes me think that you don't understand what I'm doing or how I'm living.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Criticism divides (scoff all you want but that's my view)</p>
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<p> </p>
<p>I disagree. Nothing happened until people started daring to challenge the orthodoxies around them. You could also argue that people also became more affluent and financially independent and could afford to tell the powers that be to fark off. Not seeing much sign of that in the Muslim world though.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>How do you expect what you've written to occur with Islam when even the slightest hint of criticism is slapped down as racism or bigotry? This isn't about going round harassing and insulting people, but subjecting Islam to the same level of criticism and debate that all religions in the West have to tolerate. To me that's the true test of whether Islam is compatible with Western values and society.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="572015" data-time="1460553928">
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<p>I disagree. Nothing happened until people started daring to challenge the orthodoxies around them. You could also argue that people also became more affluent and financially independent and could afford to tell the powers that be to fark off. Not seeing much sign of that in the Muslim world though.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>How do you expect what you've written to occur with Islam when even the slightest hint of criticism is slapped down as racism or bigotry? This isn't about going round harassing and insulting people, but subjecting Islam to the same level of criticism and debate that all religions in the West have to tolerate. To me that's the true test of whether Islam is compatible with Western values and society.</p>
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<p> </p>
<p>Fair enough, I can see what you mean</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="572008" data-time="1460552142">
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<p>Siam says: "I've been to [list of countries] and they're Sharia and they're fairly cool. So it's not necessarily Sharia."<br><br>
Baron says: "I've been to [list of countries] and they're Sharia and they're fucked up. So it's definitely Sharia and Islam by extension."<br><br>
Is that about it?</p>
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<p> </p>
<p>Also</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Siam - "I went somewhere, everyone seemed nice & I got on well with people"</p>
<p>BSG - "I went somewhere, everyone I met seemed like a fucking idiot & thought I was a fluffybunny"</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I can believe both of those.</p> -
Thanks Nepia, about three times I'd started to write a post that the thread title describing the 'failure of multiculturalism' instead turns out to be almost all about Islam. But each time I ran out of energy... <br><br>
I've said before on other threads and in more detail: that Europe has done things... interestingly... across their whole migrant attraction/selection/settlement/integration space doesn't necessarily mean our policies here need wholesale changes, nor are the situations directly comparable. <br><br>
That the SunWolves are a poor rugby team doesn't mean you throw out the whole game of rugby... You can figure out how to do it better though. -
<p>Except you guys have just shown you didnt actually read the article I linked to.</p>
<p>It was a direct quote from the article form the ex Human rights and equalities commissioner in the UK he was also a left wing politician. </p>
<p>So claims it is an incorrect thread title is frankly a bit silly and just trying to deflect.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>jeez Siam has admitted he hasnt and doesnt want to even want to read the article! And yet he jumps boots and all into the thread along with others saying the thread is misnamed... it doesnt get any more clear than that.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>As for shouting down,... classic Bullshit form those wanting to close down debate. The only attempting shutting down of debate in this thread is coming from those who think that there is nothing wrong with Islam.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I think Siams assertion that it is pointless criticising Islam is grade A bullshit. It is however useful in illustrating the mindset of many in the west who would happily let a doctrine that preaches hate carry on with no criticism in the 21st century. I am guessing it makes them feel like they are somehow elnlightened?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Donsteppa" data-cid="572023" data-time="1460576872">
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<p>That the SunWolves are a poor rugby team doesn't mean you throw out the whole game of rugby... You can figure out how to do it better though.</p>
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<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Alternatively if the Sunvolves are shite and arent getting crowds, and are generally hopeless... you exclude them from the competition. Because they are bad for the competition. </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="572015" data-time="1460553928">
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<p>I disagree. Nothing happened until people started daring to challenge the orthodoxies around them. You could also argue that people also became more affluent and financially independent and could afford to tell the powers that be to fark off. Not seeing much sign of that in the Muslim world though.</p>
<p> </p>
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<p> </p>
<p>It goes further than that actually.. you dont see that happening much in the western world about Islam either (and if you do.. look at the shouting down that occurs like this thread). And that becomes an issue when mass migration occurs.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Donsteppa" data-cid="572029" data-time="1460578670">
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<p>I have read the article Baron, past experience suggests that it just takes about three seconds on TSF for European migration issues to be turned into reasons to "close the borders" in NZ.</p>
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<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>So you read the article and saw the quote.. and still said the article was mis-titled?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And didn't you yourself say just above that NZ can learn form European experiences? So what exactly is the issue with a discussion about European experiences leading on to a ideas for NZ immigration policy?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="572031" data-time="1460578783"><p>
So you read the article and saw the quote.. and still said the article was mis-titled?<br><br>
And didn't you yourself say just above that NZ can learn form European experiences? So what exactly is the issue with a discussion about European experiences leading on to a ideas for NZ immigration policy?</p></blockquote>
This is exactly why I couldn't be bothered the first three times. The thread title jarred me, not the article, as the thread has been almost all about Islam. I'd argue that European migration policies have failed (which includes multiculturalism, but is one part of many problems with their 'failed' migration policies). You'll probably argue that I'm splitting hairs, but so be it... -
<p><span style="font-size:18px;">"<span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Austin News Text Roman', Georgia, Times, serif;">“We have ‘understood’ too much, and challenged too little – and in doing so are in danger of sacrificing a generation of young British people to values that are antithetical to the beliefs of most of us, including many Muslims.</span></span></p>
<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Austin News Text Roman', Georgia, Times, serif;"><span style="font-size:18px;">“In my view, we have to adopt a far more muscular approach to integration than ever, replacing the failed policy of multiculturalism.â€</span></p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Donsteppa" data-cid="572033" data-time="1460579282">
<div>
<p>This is exactly why I couldn't be bothered the first three times. The thread title jarred me, not the article, as the thread has been almost all about Islam. I'd argue that European migration policies have failed (which includes multiculturalism, but is one part of many problems with their 'failed' migration policies). You'll probably argue that I'm splitting hairs, but so be it...</p>
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<p> </p>
<p>That is just confusing. The article itself contains the exact same quote, yet reading it on a TSF title jarred you... and reading it in the article did not?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>If you had wanted to expand the discussion to all immigrants to the UK, so be it. I think the main issues are coming from migrants who believe in one particular dogma, and to ignore that seems unusual.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="572038" data-time="1460579652">
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<p>That is just confusing. The article itself contains the exact same quote, yet reading it on a TSF title jarred you... and reading it in the article did not?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>If you had wanted to expand the discussion to all immigrants to the UK, so be it. I think the main issues are coming from migrants who believe in one particular dogma, and to ignore that seems unusual.</p>
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<p>I would bet that you, maybe, are the only one that is confused by what Donsteppa is saying.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="571994" data-time="1460546113">
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<p> </p>
<p>Singapore is a multicultural country with a large number of Malay, Chinese, and Indians contributing to those education results. Also, odd that you mention nordic countries when Sweden is often one of the places mentioned as a place that's apparently lost control when this thread repeats itself under a different title every month or so. </p>
<p> </p>
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<p>Great post in total Nepia, but I can't agree with you on the above. But I don't want to diverge this topic, so I'll just say that in my opinion, the above is just flat out wrong.</p> -
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<p>People need to draw a distinction between Islam and Muslims.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Islam is the ideology. Muslims are the people. You can attack Islam without attacking Muslims - I think that point is lost on a number of posters here. It's great that you know plenty of Muslims who "interpret" Islam differently to the fundamentalists and that they are lovely people that would never hurt a fly. I know plenty as well. But that doesn't mean I won't criticise their religion as being fundamentally flawed. As Sam Harris said, the only reason Muslim fundamentalism is a threat to us is because the fundamentals of Islam are a threat to us. If most Muslims do not agree with the fundamentals of their religion then their religion is badly flawed. This point cannot be overstated.</p>
<p> </p>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">Only 47% agreed that Muslims should do more to tackle extremism. So what, most Muslims are likely just getting on with their lives like the rest of us. Being from the same broad cultural group doesn't mean you know have to keep that group in line. It's like when a Maori child is killed it's always 'whats the Maori community going to do about it?", fuck off, I don't bash kids, why should I have to do something about it just because I'm Maori, I'd like to do something about it because I'm human and hate kids being abused and killed, but because I'm Maori. White males are more likely to be convicted for being pedophiles, yet all white males aren't held to account for them.</span></blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Comparing Maori (race) with Islam (idea) doesn't work. There is no ideology that Maori follow that states it is OK to abuse children. There is a very clear directive in Islam to destroy all infidels (I.E. non-believers or believers of another religion). Why should we tolerate an ideology that preaches intolerance?!</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Re: multiculturalism. Problems will always arise because you are taking two different groups of people with different beliefs and asking them to find a middle ground. There will be conflict while that middle ground is found. Some cultures will mix better then others. When you mix Islam into Western culture, the beliefs are so different that a middle ground simply cannot be found, and the conflict escalates as we are seeing in Europe.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Islam is not the only religion I will criticise harshly, but it is by far the most violent of the modern religions. They are all based on absolute nonsense and they all cause huge issues in society. A Christian and a Muslim may "tolerate" each other, but they will also look down on each other as following the wrong God etc. By design that creates tension and conflict. Dispelling the myths of religion is one of the most important issues facing man kind today IMO.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="572128" data-time="1460596764">
<div>
<p> </p>
<p>Islam is not the only religion I will criticise harshly, but it is by far the most violent of the modern religions. They are all based on absolute nonsense and they all cause huge issues in society. A Christian and a Muslim may "tolerate" each other, but they will also look down on each other as following the wrong God etc. By design that creates tension and conflict. Dispelling the myths of religion is one of the most important issues facing man kind today IMO.</p>
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<p> </p>
<p>I have started 1 thread.. this one.... in months that has been about Islam.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I also started one thread where I criticised the pope.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Yet the narrative is started and continued that apparently I shout down others on the topic and flood the forum with threads about Islam. That is complete nonsense. In effect it is just a way for those that dont want a religious ideology criticised to shut down debate. Claim to represent a silent majority whilst also claiming to be a victim.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="571994" data-time="1460546113">
<div>
<p>To illustrate the loudest noise point again, such is the noise that the anti-Islam brigade on here make, a casual viewer of this forum would think this was the main belief around here, but really it just gets so tiresome that posters with different views just can't be fucked most of the time - this is about the 3rd iteration of this same thread in about the same amount of months and it's the first time I can really be bothered to contribute anything substantial. TBH I find some of the reactionary stuff on here to be comical. Hell, even Enoch Powell would crack up at some of the end of civilisation comments on this thread. </p>
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<p> </p>
<p>I know we have discussed this type of topic before but I really enjoy the debate. I enjoyed your (and Siam's) posts because you both brought a different view to the argument, and I would hope people aren't being put off adding their thoughts and ideas to the debate. I don't think anyone gets "shouted down" but if you put an idea forward, it is going to be analysed and broken down so you do need to be prepared to either defend it or concede.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>:)</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="572128" data-time="1460596764">
<div>
<p>Re: multiculturalism. Problems will always arise because you are taking two different groups of people with different beliefs and asking them to find a middle ground. There will be conflict while that middle ground is found. Some cultures will mix better then others. When you mix Islam into Western culture, the beliefs are so different that a middle ground simply cannot be found, and the conflict escalates as we are seeing in Europe.</p>
<p> </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Yes, that was kind of my original point about multiculturalism creating more issues than solutions.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>FWIW, I love it. I love the fact the colleagues in my office are Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Australian, American and British. I really enjoy chatting with them about their homelands, their beliefs, looking at what they wear, their political views, everything. I love walking down the street and choosing from the 50+ types of cuisine I could eat. Korean roll today, hamburger tomorrow, sushi the next day, curry on friday etc - it's an amazing way to live.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>But what happens when Joe Bob is in NZ trying to watch the rugby and suddenly the TV in the pub (serving Asahi) is turned over to watch Kitchee vs tokyo at football, due to the crowd being predominantly Asia. Is Joe Bob happy? What about when somebody drives like they do in their home land - cutting in etc. Is he happy then? What about when his kid who is top 20%, doesn't have the work ethic of the other cultures, so doesn't make the top stream classes, how about now? When he's at the supermarket buying his groceries and suddenly realises he's the only white fella around and the only person speaking english? Is Joe stilll happy? And what about Joe's Dad whose lived in a small town his entire life, paid his taxes, and now wants the quiet life of golf, the odd punt at the TAB and a few beers at the local club with his mates. But suddenly the golf club more expensive as it's owned by wealthy immigrants, the TAB is no longer a social place to hang out as it's filled with immigrants and his local club - well all his mates are now just whinging as their businesses are stuffed by cheaper labour costs etc etc.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The thing is, for my situations, it's all nice to haves which make my happy. But if I lost them, well, meh, whatever. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>But the negatives - well to these people, they are far larger negatives than my positives. Oh and Joes Dad? He's real. He's my Uncle.</p>
The Failed policy of Multiculturalism