SRA Round 9: Crusaders v Blues
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@machpants what is worrying to me is that Reece will use the soccer theatrics all the time now..
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@taniwharugby Robinson did have blood streaming down his face so you can understand when it was reported that he went off initially as a blood bin. I can only assume an HIA was then performed so the situation changed.
The match doctor makes their decision by looking at TV screens, but this should be in conjunction with the ref and team doctor, if the latter two haven't requested an HIA test.
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@bovidae they said he wouldnt be coming back due to the cut, which would have to be a significant cut nowadays to prevent returning to the field.
Each team has thier own Dr on the field dont they, why didnt he press the issue?
Is Dr. Kara still the Blues Dr?
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The match doctor is meant to be independent of the teams, who each have their own doctor sideline. You would think (hope) they talk to each other. Clearly not the case in Chch when one party refuses to listen, and obviously the match doctor has the final say. I'm happy MacDonald said something. It might lead to some certainty over the roles and processes that should be followed.
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@snowy said in SRA Round 9: Crusaders v Blues:
The other bit that I don't think has been mentioned:
The Blues obviously thought that it was HIA related otherwise they wouldn't have sent Gibson back on after he was subbed. They must know those rules, but were told that they couldn't have him on the park so down to 14. Happened to Crusaders a while back too against the Reds I think. Mo and Hunt. They finished with 14 but might have used all of their subs by then.
Have I got that wrong in this case? Or did the officials? If it was HI replacement that was legit to put Gibson on. Is the below out of date?
Law 3.33 TACTICAL REPLACEMENTS JOINING THE MATCH
Tactically replaced players may return to play only when replacing:
a. An injured front-row player.
b. A player with a blood injury.
c. A player undertaking an HIA.
d. A player who has just been injured as a result of foul play (as verified by the match officials).
e. The nominated player described in Law 3.19 or 3.20. [This refers to front row players, which is not applicable in the incident under discussion.]The officials were talking about "e" or Law 3.19 or 3.20 when they sent Gibson off the field saying that he wasn't front row. So they obviously didn't think it as HI that they sent Gibson off, or they got it wrong under "c".
Could argue that they got it wrong under "d" as well they penalised for the foul play that caused the injury - even if it wasn't a card - it was what caused the injury.
I'm confused, and obviously not for the first time. Didn't Gibson come back on to replace Papalii who had a buggered knee? Or am I missing your point completely?
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@crazy-horse Yes, Gibson did. I made the same comment above. He definitely didn't come on for Tele'a.
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@Crazy-Horse @stargazer said in SRA Round 9: Crusaders v Blues:
@crazy-horse Yes, Gibson did. I made the same comment above. He definitely didn't come on for Tele'a.
I'm confused as well.
Gibson wasn't replacing Tele'a. He was coming on for a player because Blues had used all 8 replacements (I think) due to HI / foul play for one player in order to keep 15 on the field. Then he was kicked off. Why?
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@snowy said in SRA Round 9: Crusaders v Blues:
@Crazy-Horse @stargazer said in SRA Round 9: Crusaders v Blues:
@crazy-horse Yes, Gibson did. I made the same comment above. He definitely didn't come on for Tele'a.
I'm confused as well.
Gibson wasn't replacing Tele'a. He was coming on for a player because Blues had used all 8 replacements (I think) due to HI / foul play for one player in order to keep 15 on the field. Then he was kicked off. Why?
I get what you are saying now. Maybe they treat all subs individually rather than collectively? In other words Gibson was specifically replacing Papalii who went off with an injury. Does seem a bit unfair when you think of the flow on effect of the earlier HIA replacement. Good point.
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@crazy-horse That's a bit far-fetched. The player who was incorrectly taken off the field for a head injury by the match doctor was a back and a reserve back came on (Otere Black). They didn't lose a forward sub as a result of the mistake of the match doctor.
They subbed Gibson for Akira in the 46th minute, so reasonably early in the 2nd half. Does someone know exactly when in the game Papali'i injured his knee, because he played on for quite a while, I think. They subbed Sam Darry for Taine Plumtree in the 67th minute. Papali'i left the field (71st minute), so only 4 minutes later and they had to play on with 14 players. By then, the Blues were already trailing 6 - 22, so the game was already lost anyway.
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@crazy-horse said in SRA Round 9: Crusaders v Blues:
@snowy said in SRA Round 9: Crusaders v Blues:
@Crazy-Horse @stargazer said in SRA Round 9: Crusaders v Blues:
@crazy-horse Yes, Gibson did. I made the same comment above. He definitely didn't come on for Tele'a.
I'm confused as well.
Gibson wasn't replacing Tele'a. He was coming on for a player because Blues had used all 8 replacements (I think) due to HI / foul play for one player in order to keep 15 on the field. Then he was kicked off. Why?
I get what you are saying now. Maybe they treat all subs individually rather than collectively? In other words Gibson was specifically replacing Papalii who went off with an injury. Does seem a bit unfair when you think of the flow on effect of the earlier HIA replacement. Good point.
Yep does seem unfair. When it happened to the Crusaders it was the same from memory. Mo was kicked off the field after Hunt was dumped on his head.
Hunt HI, Mo not allowed to play having been a tactical sub. It was more obvious because they were in the same position but the same point.It defeats the purpose of protecting players because the tactical subs are planned, and probably executed, before this happens.
End result - you replace a player who was in the categories above (foul play, HI) and you have nobody on the bench who hasn't already been on the field, you can't remain with 15 players out there. In spite of the fact that one player was illegally removed (just saying). That is daft to me.
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@stargazer fucking hell I have just finished a week of working nights and thinking about this is making me sweat 😀 I get what you are saying too. What you said was my initial stance and may well still be my stance, but @voodoo got me thinking and perhaps that is not a good idea at the moment
Edit - I think I meant @Snowy rather than @voodoo but fuck knows.
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@stargazer said in SRA Round 9: Crusaders v Blues:
@crazy-horse That's a bit far-fetched. The player who was incorrectly taken off the field for a head injury by the match doctor was a back and a reserve back came on (Otere Black). They didn't lose a forward sub as a result of the mistake of the match doctor.
They subbed Gibson for Akira in the 46th minute, so reasonably early in the 2nd half. Does someone know exactly when in the game Papali'i injured his knee, because he played on for quite a while, I think.
Anyway, when Papali'i left the field (71st minute) and they had to play on with 14 players, the Blues were already trailing 6 - 22, so the game was already lost anyway.
You seem to be missing the point. The relevance to that particular game is immaterial.
The laws are relevant, and having a player removed from the match due to foul play and not being able to replace them - even with a player that has been on the field should be allowed.
You shouldn't be down to 14 at the end of a match because you had a game plan, used subs, and previously the opposition did something illegal to injure one of your players.
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@snowy said in SRA Round 9: Crusaders v Blues:
@stargazer said in SRA Round 9: Crusaders v Blues:
@crazy-horse That's a bit far-fetched. The player who was incorrectly taken off the field for a head injury by the match doctor was a back and a reserve back came on (Otere Black). They didn't lose a forward sub as a result of the mistake of the match doctor.
They subbed Gibson for Akira in the 46th minute, so reasonably early in the 2nd half. Does someone know exactly when in the game Papali'i injured his knee, because he played on for quite a while, I think.
Anyway, when Papali'i left the field (71st minute) and they had to play on with 14 players, the Blues were already trailing 6 - 22, so the game was already lost anyway.
You seem to be missing the point. The relevance to that particular game is immaterial.
The laws are relevant, and having a player removed from the match due to foul play and not being able to replace them - even with a player that has been on the field should be allowed.
You shouldn't be down to 14 at the end of a match because you had a game plan, used subs, and previously the opposition did something illegal to injure one of your players.
I am not thinking clearly at the moment, but would a giving a team one extra generic sub in which they can use whomever, whenever, solve the issue?
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@snowy Indeed, for the result it's not important, but you can't ignore the fact that the player taken out of the game for a head injury was a back, and was replaced by a back. They'd never have used Otere Black (or Christie, or Lam) to replace Papali'i.
They could have subbed Plumtree for Papali'i, who was already injured by then IIRC, but he thought incorrectly he could close out the game, so they subbed Plumtree for Darry (67th minute). Playing with 14 men (from the 71st minute) wasn't a result of the mistake of the match doctor; it was the result of Papali'i or the coaches thinking he could finish the game and the Darry-Plumtree sub 4 minutes prior.
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@crazy-horse said in SRA Round 9: Crusaders v Blues:
@snowy said in SRA Round 9: Crusaders v Blues:
@stargazer said in SRA Round 9: Crusaders v Blues:
@crazy-horse That's a bit far-fetched. The player who was incorrectly taken off the field for a head injury by the match doctor was a back and a reserve back came on (Otere Black). They didn't lose a forward sub as a result of the mistake of the match doctor.
They subbed Gibson for Akira in the 46th minute, so reasonably early in the 2nd half. Does someone know exactly when in the game Papali'i injured his knee, because he played on for quite a while, I think.
Anyway, when Papali'i left the field (71st minute) and they had to play on with 14 players, the Blues were already trailing 6 - 22, so the game was already lost anyway.
You seem to be missing the point. The relevance to that particular game is immaterial.
The laws are relevant, and having a player removed from the match due to foul play and not being able to replace them - even with a player that has been on the field should be allowed.
You shouldn't be down to 14 at the end of a match because you had a game plan, used subs, and previously the opposition did something illegal to injure one of your players.
I am not thinking clearly at the moment, but would a giving a team one extra generic sub in which they can use whomever, whenever, solve the issue?
Yes, but not just one. I think if any players were taken off due to the rules above (foul play, Hi, etc) they should be able to be replaced by anyone that has been on the field already. No increase in subs, just send someone back on. Replaced players would have to stay warmed up ready to go but that isn't huge for probably 20-30 mins.
The risk is the fake blood replacement (Tom Williams thing) but doctors should be able to diagnose better than that.
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@stargazer said in SRA Round 9: Crusaders v Blues:
@snowy Indeed, for the result it's not important, but you can't ignore the fact that the player taken out of the game for a head injury was a back, and was replaced by a back. They'd never have used Otere Black (or Christie, or Lam) to replace Papali'i.
They could have subbed Plumtree for Papali'i, who was already injured by then IIRC, but he thought incorrectly he could close out the game, so they subbed Plumtree for Darry (67th minute). Playing with 14 men (from the 71st minute) wasn't a result of the mistake of the match doctor; it was the result of Papali'i or the coaches thinking he could finish the game and the Darry-Plumtree sub 4 minutes prior.
You are still hung up about that match.
I'm trying to get to the point that the laws might have a glitch. It happened to the Crusaders as well and not long ago.
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@stargazer said in SRA Round 9: Crusaders v Blues:
@snowy Indeed, for the result it's not important, but you can't ignore the fact that the player taken out of the game for a head injury was a back, and was replaced by a back. They'd never have used Otere Black (or Christie, or Lam) to replace Papali'i.
They could have subbed Plumtree for Papali'i, who was already injured by then, but he thought incorrectly he could close out the game, so they subbed Plumtree for Darry (67th minute). Playing with 14 men (from the 71st minute) wasn't a result of the mistake of the match doctor; it was the result of Papali'i or the coaches thinking he could finish the game and the Darry-Plumtree sub 4 minutes prior.
But were the Blues down to fourteen because they had used their allocation re number of subs used, or because they were unable to replace an injured player with a player who had already been on the field? In other words would the Blues have been able to retain 15 if there was a player on the bench who had not already been on the field?
And we've seen backs replace forwards and vice versa before so I don’t think position is relevant here. -
@snowy said in SRA Round 9: Crusaders v Blues:
@crazy-horse said in SRA Round 9: Crusaders v Blues:
@snowy said in SRA Round 9: Crusaders v Blues:
@stargazer said in SRA Round 9: Crusaders v Blues:
@crazy-horse That's a bit far-fetched. The player who was incorrectly taken off the field for a head injury by the match doctor was a back and a reserve back came on (Otere Black). They didn't lose a forward sub as a result of the mistake of the match doctor.
They subbed Gibson for Akira in the 46th minute, so reasonably early in the 2nd half. Does someone know exactly when in the game Papali'i injured his knee, because he played on for quite a while, I think.
Anyway, when Papali'i left the field (71st minute) and they had to play on with 14 players, the Blues were already trailing 6 - 22, so the game was already lost anyway.
You seem to be missing the point. The relevance to that particular game is immaterial.
The laws are relevant, and having a player removed from the match due to foul play and not being able to replace them - even with a player that has been on the field should be allowed.
You shouldn't be down to 14 at the end of a match because you had a game plan, used subs, and previously the opposition did something illegal to injure one of your players.
I am not thinking clearly at the moment, but would a giving a team one extra generic sub in which they can use whomever, whenever, solve the issue?
Yes, but not just one. I think if any players were taken off due to the rules above (foul play, Hi, etc) they should be able to be replaced by anyone that has been on the field already. No increase in subs, just send someone back on. Replaced players would have to stay warmed up ready to go but that isn't huge for probably 20-30 mins.
The risk is the fake blood replacement (Tom Williams thing) but doctors should be able to diagnose better than that.
Bloody hell, I am still confused 😀 I was under the impression they can already replace players who go off for HIA with players who have been on the field previously. Maybe I should stay out of this conversation!
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@snowy No, I'm not hung up about this match. I'm just replying to statements I don't agree with; comments made relating to this particular match.
By the way, Hunt did get off the field for a HIA. The officials got that wrong and under the rules, they should have left RM on the field. They admitted that after the game and apologised. So the situation is completely different.
I'm sure the situation has happened before, though, and it will happen again. To any team. It's just the way the rules are. Rightly or wrongly.
