Pasifika SR team
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@gt12 said in Pasifika SR team:
Does nationality by descent continue infinitum for PI people? I know that you can get nationality by descent but does it have a limit (e.g. in NZ I gave my boy NZ citizenship but he can't pass it along unless he changes his NZ status or has his kids in NZ or marries a kiwi). I ask because I wonder if there is a point when many NZ-born PIs may become ineligible for islands?
No different to anyone else as far as I know. Still grandparents, and their country of birth / citizenship for eligibility.
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@gt12 said in Pasifika SR team:
Does nationality by descent continue infinitum for PI people? I know that you can get nationality by descent but does it have a limit (e.g. in NZ I gave my boy NZ citizenship but he can't pass it along unless he changes his NZ status or has his kids in NZ or marries a kiwi). I ask because I wonder if there is a point when many NZ-born PIs may become ineligible for islands?
That is a WR rule , not a PI national rule. It ends at grandparent. So the Garden-Bachop's, unless closer PI descent on mothers side would be ineligible, as Stephen qualified for Samoa on a grandparent.
So, yes many will. But, there is still plenty incoming and refreshing annually. But, yeah, on the cusp now of NZers with Samoan last names not qualified for Samoa. (Bachop name is French Tahitian though, in my clumsy example)
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@snowy said in Pasifika SR team:
@gt12 said in Pasifika SR team:
Does nationality by descent continue infinitum for PI people? I know that you can get nationality by descent but does it have a limit (e.g. in NZ I gave my boy NZ citizenship but he can't pass it along unless he changes his NZ status or has his kids in NZ or marries a kiwi). I ask because I wonder if there is a point when many NZ-born PIs may become ineligible for islands?
No different to anyone else as far as I know. Still grandparents, and their country of birth / citizenship for eligibility.
Yeah, nationality for Samoans (at least) is supposedly:
Nationality
A person born outside Samoa may obtain citizenship by descent, provided that at least one of his or her parents is a Samoan citizen other than by descent, or that the parent in question is a Samoan citizen by descent who has lived in Samoa at various times for a combined period of three years.
World rugby is similar:
Which country can a player represent?
There are four ways a player can be eligible to represent a country at international level. They are:
They were born in the country.
They have a parent or grandparent who was born in the country.
They have lived in the country for 36 consecutive months (three years) to qualify on residency immediately before playing.
They have completed ten years of cumulative residence in the country before playing.[36 is now going to 60 months from Dec 31st)
So, either a parent born in the country or grandparent. I would assume that there will be a significant proportion of the PI population who at some point will no longer qualify for the PI nations. What about them?
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NZ Rugby should get a team in the Gallaher Premiership. Take all the financial advantages of being based in London with a partisan ex pat audience and pinch all their players from other GP teams who've previously invested heavily in getting NZ players there. Ring any bells?
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@gt12 said in Pasifika SR team:
So, either a parent born in the country or grandparent. I would assume that there will be a significant proportion of the PI population who at some point will no longer qualify for the PI nations. What about them?
@gt12 They wear Black (or piss off overseas). No different to me. I'm 5th generation Kiwi, not eligible for anyone else, and not good enough for the ABs (or anyone prepared to pay me to play rugby either).
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@shark said in Pasifika SR team:
NZ Rugby should get a team in the Gallaher Premiership. Take all the financial advantages of being based in London with a partisan ex pat audience and pinch all their players from other GP teams who've previously invested heavily in getting NZ players there. Ring any bells?
wasn't this floated at some point? Or was it just a chat around here?
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@mariner4life said in Pasifika SR team:
wasn't this floated at some point? Or was it just a chat around here?
The former. Think it was around the time that Saracens was a Saffa team, as I think @shark is alluding to.
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@snowy said in Pasifika SR team:
@gt12 said in Pasifika SR team:
So, either a parent born in the country or grandparent. I would assume that there will be a significant proportion of the PI population who at some point will no longer qualify for the PI nations. What about them?
@gt12 They wear Black (or piss off overseas). No different to me. I'm 5th generation Kiwi, not eligible for anyone else, and not good enough for the ABs (or anyone prepared to pay me to play rugby either).
I bring up this point with respect to @Stargazer 's point above (and I'm not having a go at all btw, I agree with the sentiment) that:
The concept of Nationhood in the Pacific is entirely different from that in the Western world. It's not determined by your nationality or citizenship, but by your cultural heritage. It's a big cultural difference and important to Pacific peoples. Trying to impose cultural concepts on other people is just plain wrong.That being as it may, there are still eligibility rules which will govern whether people who 'identify' as PI will actually be eligible. I would assume that those who are ineligible may want to play for MP in place of being able to represent the islands, while still being (ultimately) only available for NZ. If that happens, this system will do exactly the opposite of its intended function, and population dynamics being what they are, I can't see that not happening without greater immigration (e.g., for Samoans.I think it is capped?)
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@snowy said in Pasifika SR team:
@mariner4life said in Pasifika SR team:
wasn't this floated at some point? Or was it just a chat around here?
The former. Think it was around the time that Saracens was a Saffa team, as I think @shark is alluding to.
Nah I'm just drawing an analogy between what MP are doing and how something similar might work in the NH. And it would also to down like a cup of cold sick to the majority of local fans.
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@gt12 said in Pasifika SR team:
@snowy said in Pasifika SR team:
@gt12 said in Pasifika SR team:
So, either a parent born in the country or grandparent. I would assume that there will be a significant proportion of the PI population who at some point will no longer qualify for the PI nations. What about them?
@gt12 They wear Black (or piss off overseas). No different to me. I'm 5th generation Kiwi, not eligible for anyone else, and not good enough for the ABs (or anyone prepared to pay me to play rugby either).
I bring up this point with respect to @Stargazer 's point above (and I'm not having a go at all btw, I agree with the sentiment) that:
The concept of Nationhood in the Pacific is entirely different from that in the Western world. It's not determined by your nationality or citizenship, but by your cultural heritage. It's a big cultural difference and important to Pacific peoples. Trying to impose cultural concepts on other people is just plain wrong.That being as it may, there are still eligibility rules which will govern whether people who 'identify' as PI will actually be eligible. I would assume that those who are ineligible may want to play for MP in place of being able to represent the islands, while still being (ultimately) only available for NZ. If that happens, this system will do exactly the opposite of its intended function, and population dynamics being what they are, I can't see that not happening without greater immigration (e.g., for Samoans.I think it is capped?)
I have no problem with any of that - but different countries cultural heritage does not change any of the rules. I have Viking heritage I'm not allowed to play for Iceland.
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Dan Leo's off quoted misleading stat of approx 40% of all professional club rugby players being pacific Islanders. So, what is the solution? Add 2 more professional club teams, with WR subsidy, of almost exclusively pacific players. MP won't increase that percentage as they are just shifting ethnic payers from one team to another. But Drua may increase that percentage from 40% to approx 40.5%.
Well done us, form an orderly queue to pat us on the back as we have addressed the grievous problem of pacific under-representation in professional rugby. We've broken the 40% glass ceiling, yay. Job done, problem solved.
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@shark said in Pasifika SR team:
Nah I'm just drawing an analogy between what MP are doing and how something similar might work in the NH. And it would also to down like a cup of cold sick to the majority of local fans.
Indeed it would. The below not aimed at you, just questions.
What are the rules for London Irish for example? There aren't any are there? No Irish descent requirements? No limits on players? No nationality rules at all? Just a club. If we want another team (and I don't think that we should) it should just be another team.
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I’m not sure why you are banging on about this, I think we all get it and agree.
I’m talking about the potential that the reason for this team being created may not align with what will end up happening.
As a proportion of population, both Samos and Tonga are starting to see fewer births are fewer younger people, who will conceivable become the players for the PI team.
So, in the short term they may be able to set up a local academy and harvest better talent, but in the long term the population (and player numbers) are likely to decrease as there will be fewer island-born players and fewer players eligible for the islands in NZ and Oz.
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I'm clearly not making the point well, but what I'm trying to say is that this team probably can't (long term) have 80% PI qualified players without becoming even weaker, and there will be a growing population of PI ineligible players who may want to play for MS.
Personally speaking I think it would be better if they just pitched it as the NZ Pasifika team, which is what I think it will end up becoming anyway.
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@gt12 said in Pasifika SR team:
So, in the short term they may be able to set up a local academy and harvest better talent, but in the long term the population (and player numbers) are likely to decrease as there will be fewer island-born players and fewer players eligible for the islands in NZ and Oz.
Samoa and Tonga will always be disadvantaged because of their small populations (202K and 106K, respectively). I'm sure that Senio etc believe there will always be local talent available, even if they come to NZ for education. Fakatava, as a recent example.
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@gt12 said in Pasifika SR team:
I'm clearly not making the point well, but what I'm trying to say is that this team probably can't (long term) have 80% PI qualified players without becoming even weaker, and there will be a growing population of PI ineligible players who may want to play for MS.
Personally speaking I think it would be better if they just pitched it as the NZ Pasifika team, which is what I think it will end up becoming anyway.
Then we do agree. Long term it is unlikely to be viable, reducing numbers as you say. Actually, short term it isn't either. They could poach from the Warriors. Maybe that is the master plan, get PI players away from league in Sth Auckland and into union...
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@snowy said in Pasifika SR team:
@gt12 said in Pasifika SR team:
I'm clearly not making the point well, but what I'm trying to say is that this team probably can't (long term) have 80% PI qualified players without becoming even weaker, and there will be a growing population of PI ineligible players who may want to play for MS.
Personally speaking I think it would be better if they just pitched it as the NZ Pasifika team, which is what I think it will end up becoming anyway.
Then we do agree. Long term it is unlikely to be viable, reducing numbers as you say. Actually, short term it isn't either. They could poach from the Warriors. Maybe that is the master plan, get PI players away from league in Sth Auckland and into union...
Now we're talking
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Yep, but looking forward (and looking at the declining birth rates of these countries) my question is whether these weaknesses will get worse.
A bit more reading shows that there is projected to be a divergence - Samoa is projected to keep growing through to 2050, getting up towards 250,000.
However, Tonga is apparently going the other way, going to about 80,000 odd by 2050.
Overall, that indicates that in the medium term at least the population issue within the islands isn’t as bad as I thought.
However the issue of ineligible NZ-born PIs will get worse I guess.
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@gt12 said in Pasifika SR team:
However the issue of ineligible NZ-born PIs will get worse I guess.
Yep.
They can always spend 5 years in the more northern PI's to qualify though if they were born in NZ and don't have the Grandparent rights...(sarcasm emoji thingy).
