The Crusaders and their success
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I have mentioned the same point as @gt12 in the threads about SR parity and how a proper salary cap could work but obviously NZR aren't interested. As long as NZR have different tiers to a players contract (international, SR, provincial) nothing will change. I'd prefer to increase the salary cap for the SR rugby teams so that becomes the majority of a player's salary, like the NRL, football, etc, and what you are paid is reflective of your quality and importance to your team. At the moment the maximum salary for a SR player is $195K but an established AB won't be too bothered taking a lower SR contract if they are receiving $500K+ extra as an AB (refer to the Laulala example). NZR prefers the top down approach which is designed to keep the best players in NZ, but makes the SR team salary cap largely irrelevant.
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@gt12 said in The Crusaders and their success:
I'm not saying this is the whole story at all, because they clearly have excellent management, great coaching (and pathways for good coaches), and a fantastic culture, but the NZRFU and the system within which they work also essentially keeps them clear of the field, because there is no effective salary cap operating which prevents them from gaining, and then keeping the best talent. At one point they had probably the five best players in the country (Carter, McCaw, Read, Whitelock, Franks) plus a bunch of others (Dagg, Romano, Ellis, Crotty, Crockett) and there was no financial pressure that then prevented them from being able to sign up the younger talent to play behind them (Slade, Taylor, Moody, Todd, Laulala). Some of these they did develop of course, but my point is only that the current system allows teams to store talent.
I think they developed all of these players? Weren't they all in the Crusaders academy?
Anyway, I think there's a major difference between some star teams in the NH or other codes, and the Crusaders, which justifies the difference in salary cap IMO.
If you look at NH teams, they buy stars. The Crusaders don't recruit stars, they recruit potential and the majority of their stars have come through their academy and have been developed into stars by the Crusaders. I may be misinterpreting comments, but calling it "stockpiling" talent sounds a bit cynical. Most talent has come through their system, are loyal and want to stay. If you would change a team's salary cap, you'd "punish" a franchise for good talent identification and development. They'd have to part ways with talent that they've made into stars. That would be ridiculous and discourage all that investment in talent and development, and that in itself would in the end hurt NZ rugby. You'd also force players to play somewhere else, at a franchise where they don't want to play. That might be a reason for them to go overseas instead, and achieve the total opposite of what was intended.
Ask yourself how many players have the Crusaders recruited that were already successful at SR level the last few years? How many All Blacks? They don't have a Tyrel Lomax, who was already an AB when he moved to the Canes. No Nepo Laulala, who first moved from the Crusaders to the Chiefs (as an AB) and then to the Blues. They definitely didn't recruit a Beauden Barrett. To the contrary, Michael Ala'alatoa got one cap in two years at the Tahs; Bryn Hall got more caps, but wasn't that successful at the Blues; Whetu Douglas and Sevu Reece (for different reasons) weren't even wanted by the Chiefs. George Bower and Andrew Makalio didn't even make a SR team before they were signed by the Crusaders. Alaalatoa is now a test player, Reece an AB, Bower in the AB frame, Hall got close.
@rotated said in The Crusaders and their success:
@gt12 hit the nail on the head re: stockpiling talent. Having Tew as CEO for so long was certainly helpful, sabbaticals were always offered to Crusaders talent when needed and they allowed Ta$man to be run as an effective halfway house for Crusaders contracts under the catchment system.
Sabbaticals are also offered to talent at other franchises.
The Crusaders have been smart enough to establish part of their academy in Ta$man. I'd hardly call Ta$man a halfway house for Crusaders. The Hurricanes could have established a second academy in Hawke's Bay, but considering they hardly recognise the players in their catchment but from outside Wellington, it's no surprise they haven't thought about that. The Canes could be way more successful than they are, especially with Wellington rugby on the decline the last few years. The Chiefs could have a second academy in BOP or Taranaki. The Blues may not need a second academy, because they're based in a much more densely populated catchment and have the talent right at their doorstep. The Highlanders' player pool is probably too small for 2 academies.
I guess the point I'm trying to make - in far too many words - is that IMO the current salary cap and NZR system isn't responsible for the Crusaders gaining or holding on to their talent. I'd say, it's exactly their excellent management, great coaching and culture.
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@dogmeat said in The Crusaders and their success:
Is everyone overlooking feral support and lack of anything else to do in Christchurch?
i lived in chch for a long time and hardly never met people outside the ground that were active supporters, it was really weird, you'd go all week and not hear anyone talk about a game and then rock up to the ground and there they were
in saying that there were plenty of time the ground had very few people there
@nzzp said in The Crusaders and their success:
The clear theme from this thread is that quality administration and organisational health is the key to success.
Yet people focus completely on the short term, sugar hits of a star signing. That usually doesn't deliver what you think ... but keeps fans happy and the coach from being sacked for another year.
i think for me its because these seasons seem so short, lots of people dont see there is time to rebuilt, even in the super15 days you lose 4-5 and your written off, even more so now, its not like football with 40 games in a season plus club comps
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@stargazer said in The Crusaders and their success:
I guess the point I'm trying to make - in far too many words - is that IMO the current salary cap and NZR system isn't responsible for the Crusaders gaining or holding on to their talent. I'd say, it's exactly their excellent management, great coaching and culture.
There's a big difference between developing talent and holding on to talent.
The salary cap/NZR system has allowed Crusaders to have All Blacks coming off the bench - the same is now happening for the Blues.
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Exactly.
It's a credit to them that they are a destination for players, and it seems that the blues are now on their way to being the second destination for talent, which is a testament to some good coach/back office recruiting. For the competition, it is a bit of a weakness though, as the current system does allow teams to stockpile talent without any penalty.
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Thr Melbourne storm got done not for buying players, but for paying heaps to keep the ones they developed.
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@gt12 said in The Crusaders and their success:
Exactly.
It's a credit to them that they are a destination for players, and it seems that the blues are now on their way to being the second destination for talent, which is a testament to some good coach/back office recruiting. For the competition, it is a bit of a weakness though, as the current system does allow teams to stockpile talent without any penalty.
I think that is a problem due to Japan now being a viable option to make more money.
NZR probably are thinking let the players play were they want to be be settled and play better rugby because of it and keep them in the comp.
Nepo Laulau and BB being cases in point they both wanted to move to the Blues, Nepo to be close to family and BB Because his wife had a good job in Auckland. -
@chris said in The Crusaders and their success:
@gt12 said in The Crusaders and their success:
Exactly.
It's a credit to them that they are a destination for players, and it seems that the blues are now on their way to being the second destination for talent, which is a testament to some good coach/back office recruiting. For the competition, it is a bit of a weakness though, as the current system does allow teams to stockpile talent without any penalty.
I think that is a problem due to Japan now being a viable option to make more money.
NZR probably are thinking let the players play were they want to be be settled and play better rugby because of it and keep them in the comp.
Nepo Laulau and BB being cases in point they both wanted to move to the Blues, Nepo to be close to family and BB Because his wife had a good job in Auckland.Absolutely, and as an AB fan, I get it. But, it means that the Blues are now starting to stockpile talent, so the weaknesses in depth are getting further exposed.
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A salary cap does not prevent players from playing for their team of choice. If a player is more concerned about money they'll go where the highest offer is, but if the success of the team/coaching is more important then they might just have to be prepared to be paid below their market value to fit within the cap. NZR is more concerned about keeping their best players in NZ than where they play.
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if anything i think looking for money will draw players to the best team, not because they that team pays more but because they are more likely to look good and get a look in at the next level where they will get paid more
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@gt12 said in The Crusaders and their success:
@chris said in The Crusaders and their success:
@gt12 said in The Crusaders and their success:
Exactly.
It's a credit to them that they are a destination for players, and it seems that the blues are now on their way to being the second destination for talent, which is a testament to some good coach/back office recruiting. For the competition, it is a bit of a weakness though, as the current system does allow teams to stockpile talent without any penalty.
I think that is a problem due to Japan now being a viable option to make more money.
NZR probably are thinking let the players play were they want to be be settled and play better rugby because of it and keep them in the comp.
Nepo Laulau and BB being cases in point they both wanted to move to the Blues, Nepo to be close to family and BB Because his wife had a good job in Auckland.Absolutely, and as an AB fan, I get it. But, it means that the Blues are now starting to stockpile talent, so the weaknesses in depth are getting further exposed.
Yep thats going impact on the other 3 teams even harder.
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@kiwiwomble said in The Crusaders and their success:
if anything i think looking for money will draw players to the best team, not because they that team pays more but because they are more likely to look good and get a look in at the next level where they will get paid more
A real salary cap would include your SR and AB salary, not just a player's SR salary. Look at the NRL. The club pays your salary and needs to fit x players in the squad under the salary cap. If you make an origin or international team you get a small bonus in your earnings outside of the cap.
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@chris said in The Crusaders and their success:
@gt12 said in The Crusaders and their success:
Exactly.
It's a credit to them that they are a destination for players, and it seems that the blues are now on their way to being the second destination for talent, which is a testament to some good coach/back office recruiting. For the competition, it is a bit of a weakness though, as the current system does allow teams to stockpile talent without any penalty.
I think that is a problem due to Japan now being a viable option to make more money.
NZR probably are thinking let the players play were they want to be be settled and play better rugby because of it and keep them in the comp.
Nepo Laulau and BB being cases in point they both wanted to move to the Blues, Nepo to be close to family and BB Because his wife had a good job in Auckland.BB had a bloody good job in Wellington. Who wears the pants in that family?
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@higgins said in The Crusaders and their success:
@chris said in The Crusaders and their success:
@gt12 said in The Crusaders and their success:
Exactly.
It's a credit to them that they are a destination for players, and it seems that the blues are now on their way to being the second destination for talent, which is a testament to some good coach/back office recruiting. For the competition, it is a bit of a weakness though, as the current system does allow teams to stockpile talent without any penalty.
I think that is a problem due to Japan now being a viable option to make more money.
NZR probably are thinking let the players play were they want to be be settled and play better rugby because of it and keep them in the comp.
Nepo Laulau and BB being cases in point they both wanted to move to the Blues, Nepo to be close to family and BB Because his wife had a good job in Auckland.BB had a bloody good job in Wellington. Who wears the pants in that family?
Haha you know -
@higgins said in The Crusaders and their success:
@chris said in The Crusaders and their success:
@gt12 said in The Crusaders and their success:
Exactly.
It's a credit to them that they are a destination for players, and it seems that the blues are now on their way to being the second destination for talent, which is a testament to some good coach/back office recruiting. For the competition, it is a bit of a weakness though, as the current system does allow teams to stockpile talent without any penalty.
I think that is a problem due to Japan now being a viable option to make more money.
NZR probably are thinking let the players play were they want to be be settled and play better rugby because of it and keep them in the comp.
Nepo Laulau and BB being cases in point they both wanted to move to the Blues, Nepo to be close to family and BB Because his wife had a good job in Auckland.BB had a bloody good job in Wellington. Who wears the pants in that family?
I think he could see the writing on the wall. He’s got too much skill and flair to be a donkey Canes number 10.
He didn’t want to suffer the fate Carlos did when Irish Joe decided he wanted Lavea as his 10 for the Blues.
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@higgins said in The Crusaders and their success:
@chris said in The Crusaders and their success:
@gt12 said in The Crusaders and their success:
Exactly.
It's a credit to them that they are a destination for players, and it seems that the blues are now on their way to being the second destination for talent, which is a testament to some good coach/back office recruiting. For the competition, it is a bit of a weakness though, as the current system does allow teams to stockpile talent without any penalty.
I think that is a problem due to Japan now being a viable option to make more money.
NZR probably are thinking let the players play were they want to be be settled and play better rugby because of it and keep them in the comp.
Nepo Laulau and BB being cases in point they both wanted to move to the Blues, Nepo to be close to family and BB Because his wife had a good job in Auckland.BB had a bloody good job in Wellington. Who wears the pants in that family?
She gets a better job, and he gets a better job. Also, the climate's better up north
More to life than rugby sometimes -
@stargazer said in The Crusaders and their success:
I'd hardly call Ta$man a halfway house for Crusaders.
I was talking about during the era before they abolished the catchment system model. There was a period around 2007-2011 where Ta$man were signing the likes of Rico Gear, Ali Williams, Brad Thorn, Chris Jack, Ben Franks etc on full freight NPC contracts despite being unavailable for most of the season on international duty. It was all about the Crusaders and the NZRU propped them up when they were due to be culled bleeding cash.
