Best Test XI - General chat
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@Chris-B said in Best Test XI - General chat:
Not a bad team if we're picking a team of the last 50 years - but, I'm pretty sure there's some significant recency bias.
Five of our current team make it, but no-one from the 40 years preceding 1970?
Biggest travesty is, I think, Tommy Latham ahead of Stewie Dempster.
Now, I like Tom - a lot. But, I also watched him batting against the current Australian bowlers last year and he got sorted out. There was a stint of commentary - probably during the Sydney test, where Mark Waugh was rubbishing the rankings that had Tom as one of the current top 10 batsmen in the world. I was pretty much biting my lip, but nodding along. I don't think Mark is going to rate our selecting him as one of our best ever.
> As I said previously - we have an opening batsmen who averaged 65, but we're not going to pick him?
This guy has picked The Demon Spofforth for Australia, on the back of 18 tests, against far more illustrious competition for a fast bowling spot.
https://www.theroar.com.au/2020/04/14/all-time-australian-test-xi/
No, because he did it over 10 tests, not 100
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@MN5 And yet here's a very recent article arguing that 10 test innings is enough to assess whether a batsman ought to be dropped.
Averaging 65 across 15 innings isn't trivial - and he's got a significant first class record that also show he's not Rodney Redmond. And plenty of plaudits from people who saw him play.
Recency bias and terrible selecting!
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@Chris-B As i said in the nomination thread I'm not bothered by the fact that Dempster only played in 10 tests (only batted in 9 if we want to be really accurate), it's that his figures are inflated by 4 NO's which is a high proportion of only 15 innings.
Now you could argue that this makes him an even better opener if he could carry his bat, but one of the NO's he wasn't opening and two it was the 2nd Innings and NZ didn't bat long before it petered out into a draw.
For these reasons i would discount him. His first class average is 'only' 45 - mainly against Kiwi attacks. I think Sutcliffe has a stronger case ahead of Latham.
The old timer who I think is unlucky is Donnelly behind McCullum. I don't have a problem with McCullum as keeper but I don't think he was our best option at 6 Still not a bad side and would be competitive - weaknesses for me being the two I have mentioned and Vettori.
We fall away pretty quickly quality wise though. Imagine our 2nd XI taking on - well any of the long established nations really. Carnage.
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in 2018 cricinfo did a series where their writers picked an All Time Team for each Test playing nation
This was their side - one glaring omission
Turner
Dempster @Chris-B will be happy
Sutcliffe
Crowe
Donnelly
J R Reid
Hadlee
Vettori
Smith
Bond
Cowie
Six changes from our sidethey also conducted a readers poll which resulted in the following
Turner
WrIght @Chris-B will not be happy
Sutcliffe
Crowe
Fleming
Cairns
Hadlee
Vettori
Mc Cullum
Bond
CowieSo four changes from the experts team and 5 from the Ferns
Shocking how less than three years ago neither team featured Taylor or Kane
Only Turner, Crowe, Hadlee, Vettori and Bond were chosen by everyone
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@dogmeat just for you, our 2nd XI.
Sutcliffe
Richardson
Fleming
Donnelly
JR Reid
JF Reid/Ryder
Smith
Southee
Wagner
Cowie
ChatfieldThough I'm sure it'd change if we had another poll for a 2nd XI less anyone in the 1st XI.
And before anyone asks, NO!!!!!!!
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I voted for Donnelly as well - and Cowie!
But, on Stewie Dempster - I don't really hold with the idea that not outs inflate your average. You simply can't tell whether a not out batsman was going to be out next ball or whether he was going on to make a triple century.
Of Stewie's 15 innings, he made two hundreds and five 50s (three of which were unbeaten, so he was well set to go on). He also had a 14* so "in" but no chance to capitalise.
It's also reported that, "In the 1931 New Zealand tour of England he averaged 59.26 and scored 120 in the Test at Lord's."
He could very clearly play - and he can't be completely discounted by the likes of Mark Waugh, which is an important point!
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@dogmeat Au contraire - I ended up picking Dempster and Wright as my openers - though it was a close run thing between Wright and Turner (and Sutcliffe). I wrote quite a long post pointing out how the second half of Wright's career was statistically superior to Rigor's whole career.
I would have been happy with any of those three partnering Stewie.
Edit: Stick Little Kane in for JR Reid in that first team you posted and that's pretty close to my XI - at least, one I'm happy with.
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@MN5 No - because we have seen them.
Similar to Tom Latham, we know they're not truly world class batsmen. (Edit: that might end up being harsh on Marnus - the jury is out there).
But, reports on Dempster and Donnelly suggest that those guys probably were.
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@Chris-B said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@MN5 No - because we have seen them.
Similar to Tom Latham, we know they're not truly world class batsmen. (Edit: that might end up being harsh on Marnus - the jury is out there).
But, reports on Dempster and Donnelly suggest that those guys probably were.
I’m not convinced purely cos those two played fuck all tests and the old chestnut of an excellent first class record isn’t enough of a yardstick to off set this in my view.
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@MN5 I'm happy to take into account reports like..."In 1960, Neville Cardus expressed the opinion that Donnelly was the finest left-handed foreign batsman to play in England since World War II. Donnelly's favourite shot, a legside flick off the pads, often had spectators gasping in admiration, while some commentators suggested he was the best cover-point of all time."
But, the other side of the equation, when it comes to our current team members is...
Today's Cricket Match | Cricket Update | Cricket News | ESPNcricinfo
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I reckon you'll find Mark Waugh et al being quite dismissive of our Fern all time team.
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@Chris-B said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@MN5 I'm happy to take into account reports like..."In 1960, Neville Cardus expressed the opinion that Donnelly was the finest left-handed foreign batsman to play in England since World War II. Donnelly's favourite shot, a legside flick off the pads, often had spectators gasping in admiration, while some commentators suggested he was the best cover-point of all time."
But, the other side of the equation, when it comes to our current team members is...
Today's Cricket Match | Cricket Update | Cricket News | ESPNcricinfo
Get live cricket scores, cricket updates of upcoming International, domestic and T20 matches. Catch all the latest videos, news about cricket on ESPNcricinfo.
I reckon you'll find Mark Waugh et al being quite dismissive of our Fern all time team.
He’s just angry Steve gets first dibs of the Xmas turkey each year cos his test record is better
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For me, as this is a test side and bowlers are there to get wickets, I'll leave out Vettori in favour of Wagner - We have never produced a spinner who actually could run through a side and Vettori is notable more for his longevity than his penetration (at Test level).
As for batsmen, I can't go past Crowe, Kane and Rosco for our middle order but before Kane arrived on the scene, I would have had Donnelly in the mix and would have batted Sutcliffe at 6 as post the 53 boxing day test he was never the same against pace by his own admission.
GMT still gets in but I do rate Latham - very few batsmen perform well everywhere so one series in Aus I can treat as an outlier. Stewie Dempster gets serious consideration and given he played as an opener in the days of uncovered domestic wickets, that explains to me a FC average of 45. I'll be honest, I could put Donnelly and Dempster in my side without blinking even now. Even if it meant replacing Hogan with Donnelly - which for those of you who know me, is a huge admission
