Coronavirus - New Zealand
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@MN5 said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Virgil said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
I am sure patient zero was not a family member but in fact someone working in quarantine services. Either the government know and are working out how to spin the embarassment, or our contact tracing is so fucked they haven't worked it out. Or this family are not being as helpful as they could be in identifying the leak (cultural more than wilful obstruction)
It has to be right? Even IF we had amazingly strict border and quarantine measures in place that would logically be the most likely place to start looking. Dig through all the details and records of ALL staff and try to trace their where abouts and possible links to this family.
They would love to believe it came from that cold store. I can't see it, the virus would die in transit surely
The coldstore thing is simply eliminating a(remote) possibility. You’d be screaming if they didn’t check.
Man there’s a lot of headless chook surmising going on at the moment. I understand that we are in a knowledge vacuum around this but FFS, lining up the firing squad before knowing the crime?
I don't know about you, but after the Melbourne cautionary tale, and all the stories of near misses in our own systems, I expect to be off work and out of pocket for another few weeks. It leaves me thinking
Yeah but it’s oversimplification to say ‘one job.
I’m not excusing incompetence if that is the cause but we don’t know the cause or if it was a risk not covered eg frozen imports
We are still learning how this thing works so can hardly plug gaps that we can’t seeI agree this thing is unforgiving, hardly just a flu. Mistakes will be made. But there are no excuses for lack of testing and breakdown of protocols. If this was a quarantine failure I think it is time to bring in the army to enforce quarantine. At least they stand a good chance of following orders
The army are no more trained to deal with this situation than anyone else. In fact so much would be unworkable because they would only follow explicit orders.
Not quite sure how many spare service folk are around waiting to do this either.
What type of quarantine failure are you referring to anyway? A breakout? The isolation facilities aren’t high security prisons so putting more army in charge doesn’t solve anything there.
As for the testing of handling staff, the numbers being thrown around by press are misleading. They are counting people that have no risk of contact.
Look, I know that plenty of mistakes have been made but (and this is no excuse) you need to realise that this is being arranged by public servants who are pretty incompetent at their own jobs let alone something new.
It’s all very well expecting better performance but you are unlikely to get it or get a better capability of personal in those jobs. The cultures within those organisations don’t exactly attract the best.
These problems would happen no matter who the govt is. Yelling and complaining at them doesn’t improve capabilities.Indeed, I love how political whingers wank on about how well the other side would do with absolutely no evidence to back up whether this would be the case or not.
On the flip side, Labour were going to easily win the elections simply because they had handled the virus management well, when there was no evidence to show how National would have manged it. Prior to the virus, they were polling behind National. It works both ways.
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@akan004 said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@nzzp said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@akan004 said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Frank I'm definitely not voting Labour. It would be unpatriotic of me to do so since we don't win RWCs when they are in power.
uh, 1987?
Edit: and I liked John Key, but can't resist this:
My bad. Should have said in the pro era.
To be fair, 1987 was Labour in name, but mostly Act in disguise.
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Is anyone really buying the "cold storage" explanation?
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@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Crucial I agree, there is no guarantee that this wouldn't have happened under the Nat's watch too. I guess we will wait to see if they can work out what went wrong
You can only play the team in front of you right? Absolving Labour of responsibility for screwing this all up because a theoretical National government may or may not be better is just ridiculous.
Labour are the government, they are responsible for how this being managed. They took the poll bump when it "went well" (At what cost to our futures?) they can take the lumps when their inadequacies are laid bare.
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@antipodean It's a good distraction from the quarantine failures. Could argue it's right out of the Trump playbook....
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@antipodean all people are saying it that it is very unlikely but is good they are checking all possibilities...
If it could survive for weeks frozen, we be fuckeded.
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@Kirwan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Kirwan if you read my previous posts you will find me in agreement with you...
I'm furiously agreeing with you then.
Avoiding procedural failures in the quarantine system and in the detection of covid19 in workers should have been top priority after seeing the Victorians dropping the ball. And contact tracing the shit out of them
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@Kirwan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Crucial I agree, there is no guarantee that this wouldn't have happened under the Nat's watch too. I guess we will wait to see if they can work out what went wrong
You can only play the team in front of you right? Absolving Labour of responsibility for screwing this all up because a theoretical National government may or may not be better is just ridiculous.
Labour are the government, they are responsible for how this being managed. They took the poll bump when it "went well" (At what cost to our futures?) they can take the lumps when their inadequacies are laid bare.
I not calling for absolution at all. Simply saying that changing the head of this beast wont necessarily fix the problems.
Ultimately govts can provide policy and directives but they don't get to employ long term appointments in public services. They can try hard to get rid of incompetence but sometimes it is hard to move or takes a whole term just to get change happening. -
@Crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Kirwan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Crucial I agree, there is no guarantee that this wouldn't have happened under the Nat's watch too. I guess we will wait to see if they can work out what went wrong
You can only play the team in front of you right? Absolving Labour of responsibility for screwing this all up because a theoretical National government may or may not be better is just ridiculous.
Labour are the government, they are responsible for how this being managed. They took the poll bump when it "went well" (At what cost to our futures?) they can take the lumps when their inadequacies are laid bare.
I not calling for absolution at all. Simply saying that changing the head of this beast wont necessarily fix the problems.
Ultimately govts can provide policy and directives but they don't get to employ long term appointments in public services. They can try hard to get rid of incompetence but sometimes it is hard to move or takes a whole term just to get change happening.People need to be held accountable for poor decision making. What you posted above sounds pretty close to blaming the people trying to implement the policy and letting Cindy et all completely off the hook.
If so, that's incredibly unfair. I saw posts on social media blaming the quarantine workers for not getting themselves tested, you are right in line with that sort of thinking.
What sort of idiot organisation doesn't test the people working with people that have been quarantined? I think we all just assumed that was happening right?
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@Crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
They can try hard to get rid of incompetence but sometimes it is hard to move or takes a whole term just to get change happening.
Yep, agreed it's hard. Good ministers really do drive change though, and set quality direction. Poor ones don't. And unfortunately you have to carry responsibility (or at least, we used to) for success or failure. It's why we pay them around $300k/year + perks.
The counterpoint to your argument, of course, is that Megan Woods and Chris Hipkins have made a real difference to the quality of the border control compared to David Clark. It appears likely, though, that the improvement isn't enough, and they have to wear that responsibility. I mean, this is potentially a multi-billion dollar mistake. We just can't imagine those kinds of numbers; it's like taking $3000 out of every kiwi's pocket. That's a massive, massive error.
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First lockdown, didnt want to do it, but I bought into it, drank the coolade, saw the bigger picture.
I also think, Cindy, delivering the message to the country was better received than if it had been Soimon or Judith delivering it, people bought it, because Cindy comes across more empathetic (not saying they cant also, but Cindy sells the 'image' better)
That being said, I think there have been far too many gaps in the fence, despite the hard line of go hard go early, they missed the trick early on with restricting our borders, then when they put up a bigger fence,they didnt make sure all the people with the access key were being tested and isolated.
Now, we are staring down the barrell of a 2nd lockdown, and I aint happy!
Wednesday night, I was seething, I had a sick feeling in my stomach all Wednesday night, I was better last night, but I am still pissed about this whole thing.
Too many holes in the fence and too many with an access key has put us back to where we are:
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@Kirwan I'm not letting anyone off the hook. I'm also not throwing shit when I don't know where the blame lies. I'll wait and stockpile for that.
I'm talking more about the chains of decision makers below govt that are useless. DHBs don't seem to be able to piss in a jar. DoH have chains and chains of advisors with responsibility hard to find (eg what ever happened about the leak of names or explanation on why Boag was even receiving them to her private email?).
Those are things that any govt has to battle through. You are correct in saying that their are degrees of how well you can make it work. I'm simply adding that all the best will in the world won't create perfection in this complicated environment.
Let's equate it to software development and how all the money spent on build, test and deploy can still result in bugs that look bloody obvious once experienced after release. Was the fault with testing? Release Management? Governance? or was it simply an unforseen combination that looks like an obvious miss? I bet those paying for the release trusted evryone in the chain to do their job correctly and that the processes were pretty clearly explained. -
@Crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Kirwan I'm not letting anyone off the hook. I'm also not throwing shit when I don't know where the blame lies. I'll wait and stockpile for that.
I'm talking more about the chains of decision makers below govt that are useless. DHBs don't seem to be able to piss in a jar. DoH have chains and chains of advisors with responsibility hard to find (eg what ever happened about the leak of names or explanation on why Boag was even receiving them to her private email?).
Those are things that any govt has to battle through. You are correct in saying that their are degrees of how well you can make it work. I'm simply adding that all the best will in the world won't create perfection in this complicated environment.
Let's equate it to software development and how all the money spent on build, test and deploy can still result in bugs that look bloody obvious once experienced after release. Was the fault with testing? Release Management? Governance? or was it simply an unforseen combination that looks like an obvious miss? I bet those paying for the release trusted evryone in the chain to do their job correctly and that the processes were pretty clearly explained.Using software development as the analogy, I wouldn't blame the developers or testers if a feature wasn't working if management hadn't asked for the feature in the first place, or not set priorities properly for the roadmap.
The buck stops at the top. If the people below aren't getting the job done, it's also their job to fix that.
We had zero cases and a shut down border. We had weekly stories about people escaping from quarantine.
It's obvious where the issue is.
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@Crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Kirwan I'm not letting anyone off the hook. I'm also not throwing shit when I don't know where the blame lies. I'll wait and stockpile for that.
I'm talking more about the chains of decision makers below govt that are useless. DHBs don't seem to be able to piss in a jar. DoH have chains and chains of advisors with responsibility hard to find (eg what ever happened about the leak of names or explanation on why Boag was even receiving them to her private email?).
Those are things that any govt has to battle through. You are correct in saying that their are degrees of how well you can make it work. I'm simply adding that all the best will in the world won't create perfection in this complicated environment.
Let's equate it to software development and how all the money spent on build, test and deploy can still result in bugs that look bloody obvious once experienced after release. Was the fault with testing? Release Management? Governance? or was it simply an unforseen combination that looks like an obvious miss? I bet those paying for the release trusted evryone in the chain to do their job correctly and that the processes were pretty clearly explained.Wonder if you would be so forgiving if this was happening under a National govt?