The future of NZ Rugby
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I understand the issue of 3/4/5 Aussie teams, but it's not as simple as just picking a number we think will be competitive.
Four is a natural starting place, using the Super teams that currently exist. For all the talk of depth, in the early weeks of 2020 things looked pretty even. Both nations had outstanding teams, middling teams and mediocre teams. Overall the Kiwi teams were better but it wasn't as wide a margin as we've seen in previous years.
But things get stickier when you think about the Force. IF Andrew Forrest comes to the table (a big if), he can bring a team that pays its own bills in a more friendly timezone to European markets. More TV content, more cash. Now they might struggle on the field, but both of these unions are broke as hell and the prospect of money for nothing might be too hard to pass up.
These are all hypotheticals based on hearsay, and the Force may want to stay on their own planet. But they might not.
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@mofitzy_ said in The future of NZ Rugby:
@Machpants
Presumably the broadcasting would be shared equally between the unions. It's about being financially competitive. If we start losing players overseas because we can't match their salaries, then the interest in the domestic game dramatically falls and we get a vicious cycle.Personally I think it's good for more fan engagement and varied competition for the players.
Nah broadcasting isn;t shared equally. We have a 250 mill 5 yr deal with sky (something like that) ozzie are struggling to get 12 mill a year. NZR would be dumb to share that equally! SANZAAR had some sort of deal, wasn't equally shared, it was shared, but not equally. Ozzie obvs has done the best out of that for a fair few years
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@KiwiMurph said in The future of NZ Rugby:
@Machpants said in The future of NZ Rugby:
@mofitzy_ said in The future of NZ Rugby:
"Impey has said that SRA isn't financially viable so NZ needs Aust (and vice versa)." No he said a five team domestic league is not viable, increasing it to 8NZ teams is. It wasn't around finance but number of games. Ozzie will bring in fuck all moneyNot sure how NZ are going to fund or have the population to support 8 professional teams.
Well Impey said it is viable, so I guess there are plans within plans. NPC non pro (cos it is a massive loss maker), 8 teams on low SR level money, but to get the big moola you need ABs, as now - but maybe more pronounced? I dunno
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@Stargazer said in The future of NZ Rugby:
First of all, I'm not sure I believe that Aussie article. They're shitstirring on a regular basis.
Good call.
Penney warns NZ Rugby off going alone
NSW Waratahs coach Rob Penney has fired a warning shot at New Zealand Rugby (NZR) to weigh the...
New Zealand Rugby insists it has made no decision about its preference for a trans- Ta$man competition to replace Super Rugby next year and hasn't been pressured by Australian interests. NZR chief executive Mark Robinson hit out at Australian media reports that his board were split over two possible preferred models - an open-border split of five NZ and five Australian franchises; or an eight-team competition featuring five from NZ, two from Australia and one from the Pacific. Robinson said the board had yet to even see a copy of the independent Kiwi-driven "Aratipu Report" recommendations which will be unveiled publicly next week. A report in the Sydney Morning Herald said Rugby Australia was poised to reject any proposal featuring three or less Australian teams. Robinson said he had spoken to RA chief executive Rob Clarke earlier on Thursday and received no steer on his preference for 2021 and beyond. "There's nothing we're hearing about what they would and wouldn't be open to at this stage," Robinson said. "I'm not aware of what Australia are particularly focused on in that area." Robinson said suggestions his board were split was "absolute nonsense" along with suggestions the Sanzaar joint venture was on the verge of being dismantled. -
Some other quotes from Robinson.
"As recently as Tuesday, I was reconfirming NZRs commitment to the partnership moving forward," Robinson said on Thursday."Clearly things like international rugby have a key part to play and club or franchise rugby that's been worked through."The latter comment seemed to be implying that SANZAAR may have control over international rugby only.
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@Machpants said in The future of NZ Rugby:
We have a 250 mill 5 yr deal with sky
If you believe that number won't be adjusted then I've got a bridge for sale you might be interested in.
Having said that, you're right that broadcast deals (such as they are) don't always get split 50-50.
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If NZ rugby isn't actively discussing a 13-15 team competition that involves NZ, Oz, and Japan, they've got rocks in their heads.
Allow Kiwis to play for any team in the competition to remain eligible for AB selection.
Alternatively, set up an NZ pro competition (lets say 8 teams) that runs at a different time to the Japan competition. Allow players to play in Japan to make money, and NZ to remain available for ABs (in this case, managing workloads would be much harder).
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@gt12 said in The future of NZ Rugby:
If NZ rugby isn't actively discussing a 13-15 team competition that involves NZ, Oz, and Japan, they've got rocks in their heads.
Allow Kiwis to play for any team in the competition to remain eligible for AB selection.
Alternatively, set up an NZ pro competition (lets say 8 teams) that runs at a different time to the Japan competition. Allow players to play in Japan to make money, and NZ to remain available for ABs (in this case, managing workloads would be much harder).
What is the planned schedule for the Top League going forward? I'm confused with the multiple seasons and COVID?
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what ever they put forward, NZ needs to accept not being as dominant as we were for most of Super Rugby or we'll just end up killing the interest in places like Aus or Japan where Rugby isn't the No 1 sport...for NZ rugby to survive we need other countries markets...and for these markets to exist theyre going to need to win some games
I think a lot of true rugby fans forget that most supporter watch it for there team to win...most people dont watch games just hoping for some good rugby regardless of whos winning
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Call it New Super 12. Five franchises in NZ, four in Aus, two in Japan and one in Suva (but would play a couple of games a year in Hawaii or California) . Round robin followed by Semis and a Grand Final.
Kiwis can play in any of these teams and be available for the ABs as long as they follow NZR protocols on injury-prevention, rest and being available for ABs duty.
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@Kiwiwomble said in The future of NZ Rugby:
what ever they put forward, NZ needs to accept not being as dominant as we were for most of Super Rugby or we'll just end up killing the interest in places like Aus or Japan where Rugby isn't the No 1 sport...for NZ rugby to survive we need other countries markets...and for these markets to exist theyre going to need to win some games
I think a lot of true rugby fans forget that most supporter watch it for there team to win...most people dont watch games just hoping for some good rugby regardless of whos winning
Your two paragraphs don’t match up. You are suggesting diluting NZ teams to make them shitter to save NZ rugby.
But then saying people watch to see their teams be good and win.So lets turn away NZ fans in the hope that we make some Aussie bandwagon jumpers happy? Fuck that.
Japan rugby showed no interest in the sunwolves, where is the evidence to suggest they are suddenly going to want to put multiple teams in Super rugby?
Adding a team from the pacific is equally crazy. It will be a commercial basket case.
If a return to a Super 15 round robin like was meant to happen is a no go and a 9-10 team trans Ta$man comp isn’t considered viable and Rugby Aotearoa also isn’t considered viable then i would think the best option would be a revamped NPC.
No more super franchises. Just take the top 8-10 Provinces and create a first division round robin. And make a second division with the remaining npc teams plus dome heartland sides and one or two from the pacific.
Have automatic promotion/relegation.But quite frankly, if the three options above (super 15, trans Ta$man or RAot) aren’t viable we are in trouble.
Chucking pacific islands teams or japanese teams in and allowing our players to freely drain away is going to be a bigger disaster than the over expanded, conference based mess super rugby had become already. -
@pukunui said in The future of NZ Rugby:
Just take the top 8-10 Provinces and create a first division round robin.
Not as easy as just doing that. How did that go last time?
The obvious unions to drop will try to delay with legal action and then go cap in hand to the NZRU asking to pay their legal bill. I agree it's the right option but I would want to see there is either a resolve from the NZRU to see it through or a way to avoid a protracted legal process.
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@rotated said in The future of NZ Rugby:
@pukunui said in The future of NZ Rugby:
Just take the top 8-10 Provinces and create a first division round robin.
Not as easy as just doing that. How did that go last time?
The obvious unions to drop will try to delay with legal action and then go cap in hand to the NZRU asking to pay their legal bill. I agree it's the right option but I would want to see there is either a resolve from the NZRU to see it through or a way to avoid a protracted legal process.
Yeah, definitely only plan D given the drastic restructure it would involve. But there don’t seem to be many easy options if we are moving away from super.
The other point I haven’t heard mentioned is that if we are all of a sudden creating new NZ Super teams, where are the players coming from? Of the players who are off contract i would think a large percentage would still be looking at signing for one of the 5 existing teams.
It will take years for the new team/teams to get established. In the mean time we will see some lop sided games and be back at square one. -
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Agreed. I don't know exactly how to do it, but it makes me laugh when kiwis bang on about having a great 8 team kiwi only competition.
Neat.
With 5 million ppl in the home market, and even on a sports forum quite a few don't bother paying for Sky, that's definitely a must have on every sports channel.
For better or worse, NZ needs to find some bigger markets they can tie up with.
A two-tiered competition (SRA + ____) would allow the best of both worlds, and allow a Southern club championship like the Heineken cup.
Or, they could go for a a two tiered Super competition. I don't know how, but I'm sure that a good solution doesn't have NZ going it alone.
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@rotated well if it is done properly, not on some manipulated figures for a predetermined outcome, it would be harder to argue against.
Similar to the way you bang the same drum about blaming the provinces that were under the gun without addressing the fact NZR failed to do the restructure transparently last time.
Was a hatchet job and was rightly pulled.
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@taniwharugby said in The future of NZ Rugby:
@rotated well if it is done properly, not on some manipulated figures for a predetermined outcome, it would be harder to argue against.
Similar to the way you bang the same drum about blaming the provinces that were under the gun without addressing the fact NZR failed to do the restructure transparently last time.
Was a hatchet job and was rightly pulled.
As @pukunui said 8-10 provinces. You could have the most an absolute meritocracy and crystal clear transparency and there is no way you are going to get 4-6 provinces to roll over when you could have two go quietly when about five were on financial life support a decade ago.
If you are making a radical change like restoring (a form of) the Mitre 10 Cup to the premier domestic competition then the decisions should be strategic anyway. There is no criteria that would see any of the Super bases miss out for example.
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South Auckland base for planned Pasifika super rugby side
A group of former All Blacks, including two-time World Cup winner Jerome Kaino, are behind the establishment of the first professional rugby union team in Hawaii.
Kanaloa Hawaii has had its bid to join America's Major League Rugby confirmed and is now in talks with New Zealand Rugby about joining a revamped Super Rugby competition.
It would be a separate team to the one that will play in the US, and would be based in South Auckland.
Kaino and fellow former All Blacks Joe Rokocoko, John Afoa, Benson Stanley, Anthony Tuitavake and Ben Atiga are in the Kanaloa Hawaii ownership group.
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The chief executive of Kanaloa Hawaii, Tracy Atiga, told RNZ Pacific, said they have already had discussions with New Zealand Rugby about the possibility of joining a new-look Super Rugby tournament.
New Zealand Rugby is currently examining the future make up of Super Rugby and the international Rugby Championship, with its Aratipu report due to go to the board next week.
"We would essentially set up our satellite programme which is here in south Auckland to accommodate a second team," said Atiga.
"So we are not talking about one team that plays in the MLR and then they come and play in Super Rugby - we are talking about two pro teams that would have equally competitive athletes at that level and we would own and operate them in co-ordination with each other," she said.
Former All Blacks and Wallabies skills coach Mick Byrne would be head coach with former All Black Tamati Ellison assistant coach.
South Auckland base for planned Pasifika super rugby side
A Pacific Islands Super Rugby team based in South Auckland is gaining traction.
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@pukunui said in The future of NZ Rugby:
@Kiwiwomble said in The future of NZ Rugby:
what ever they put forward, NZ needs to accept not being as dominant as we were for most of Super Rugby or we'll just end up killing the interest in places like Aus or Japan where Rugby isn't the No 1 sport...for NZ rugby to survive we need other countries markets...and for these markets to exist theyre going to need to win some games
I think a lot of true rugby fans forget that most supporter watch it for there team to win...most people dont watch games just hoping for some good rugby regardless of whos winning
Your two paragraphs don’t match up. You are suggesting diluting NZ teams to make them shitter to save NZ rugby.
But then saying people watch to see their teams be good and win.So lets turn away NZ fans in the hope that we make some Aussie bandwagon jumpers happy? Fuck that.
Japan rugby showed no interest in the sunwolves, where is the evidence to suggest they are suddenly going to want to put multiple teams in Super rugby?
Adding a team from the pacific is equally crazy. It will be a commercial basket case.
If a return to a Super 15 round robin like was meant to happen is a no go and a 9-10 team trans Ta$man comp isn’t considered viable and Rugby Aotearoa also isn’t considered viable then i would think the best option would be a revamped NPC.
No more super franchises. Just take the top 8-10 Provinces and create a first division round robin. And make a second division with the remaining npc teams plus dome heartland sides and one or two from the pacific.
Have automatic promotion/relegation.But quite frankly, if the three options above (super 15, trans Ta$man or RAot) aren’t viable we are in trouble.
Chucking pacific islands teams or japanese teams in and allowing our players to freely drain away is going to be a bigger disaster than the over expanded, conference based mess super rugby had become already.I was talking about new/potential/non NZ fans, they're not going to get invested if they just get thumped by the NZ teams every week
I agree with the NPC stuff you mention though
