2023 (expanded) World Cup in South Africa

jegga

Perhaps out Irish posters might like to address these comments from Rowan?
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://t2rugby.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=211&start=350'>http://t2rugby.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=211&start=350</a>
 
Should it go to Ireland, that would also mean, technically-speaking, that the United Kingdom were involved to some degree in hosting the event for the fifth time, given at least a few of the games would be staged north of the border
 
 think Ireland would be disastrous. Too small, too cold and wet, not enough decent stadiums, hotels, things to do,

Siam

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="554749" data-time="1453954029">
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Perhaps out Irish posters might like to address these comments from Rowan?
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://t2rugby.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=211&start=350'>http://t2rugby.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=211&start=350</a>
 
Should it go to Ireland, that would also mean, technically-speaking, that the United Kingdom were involved to some degree in hosting the event for the fifth time, given at least a few of the games would be staged north of the border
 
 think Ireland would be disastrous. Too small, too cold and wet, not enough decent stadiums, hotels, things to do,
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But given that England and France have never hosted it on their own, what makes you think that Ireland will?
 
There's just no evidence to suggest that any home union will host the thing solo - why argue differently?

antipodean

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="554689" data-time="1453940042">
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"There has been a Â£1â€‰billion direct cash injection into the UK economy, a boost of Â£2.5â€‰billion when taking into account knock-on effects and the retail sales rise of 1.9 per cent last month." <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/rugby-world-cup/11964535/Englands-Rugby-World-Cup-billion-pound-extravaganza-is-the-biggest-and-the-best-says-World-Rugby.html'>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/rugby-world-cup/11964535/Englands-Rugby-World-Cup-billion-pound-extravaganza-is-the-biggest-and-the-best-says-World-Rugby.html</a>
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Article provides no citation and the 'knock-on effects' is the usual ludicrous multiplier.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="554751" data-time="1453954498">
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But given that England and France have never hosted it on their own, what makes you think that Ireland will?
 
There's just no evidence to suggest that any home union will host the thing solo - why argue differently?
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</blockquote>
 
Rowan is claiming it wont all be in Ireland because some of the games will be played in Northern Ireland, not because they might be played in the England Scotland or Wales. Thats quite a different slant.

Derm McCrum

Some of the "creaking" "138 year old" stadia to be used:
 
Croke Park 83,000 - has been used before for two Six Nations Championships - opened in 1884. Complete redevelopment completed in 2005.
Lansdowne Road 53,000 - used for both rugby and soccer internationals (built 2010) 
Casement Park 32,000 - due to be upgraded to 40,000 as part of a current Â£138m stadium redevelopment programme in NI (completed 2017/18)
Windsor Park 20,000 - upgraded in 2015
Ravenhill - 18,000 upgrade in 2015
Pairc Ui Chaoimh - 53,000 upgrade ongoing - 2017
RDS, Dublin - 18,000 current - â‚¬20m upgrade starting in 2016 to 25,000
Thomond Park 25,000 - complete redevelopment finished in 2008
Pearse Stadium - Galway - 26,000
McHale Park, Castlebar - 49,000 completely redeveloped in 2011
Gaelic Grounds, Limerick - 49,500
Fitzgerald Stadium, Killarney - 43,000
 
An estimate has been put together upgrade the relevant stadia to include additional seating, media facilities, etc. All of the stadia are used regularly each year so no white elephants.
 
During the summer months, the GAA regularly gets in 1.5 million people attending games across various stadia each year. Last year in Dublin with the RWC warm up games and the top GAA matches, there were approx 850,000 attendances over 10 weeks. Regular occurrence.

Siam

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="554755" data-time="1453955082">
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Rowan is claiming it wont all be in Ireland because some of the games will be played in Northern Ireland, not because they might be played in the England Scotland or Wales. Thats quite a different slant.
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Ok thanks

Derm McCrum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="554749" data-time="1453954029">
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Perhaps out Irish posters might like to address these comments from Rowan?
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://t2rugby.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=211&start=350'>http://t2rugby.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=211&start=350</a>
 
Should it go to Ireland, that would also mean, technically-speaking, that the United Kingdom were involved to some degree in hosting the event for the fifth time, given at least a few of the games would be staged north of the border
 
 think Ireland would be disastrous. Too small, too cold and wet, not enough decent stadiums, hotels, things to do,
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Oh - lovely
 
Not enough decent stadiums - see above.
 
Too cold and wet - dealt with that.
 
Not enough hotels and things to do?
 
Hmmm
 
Some stats for Northern Ireland in 2014 - source (Tourism Statistics Branch, NISRA) - Northern Ireland is approximately one-sixth of the island of Ireland in size.
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in 2014 overnight trips by all visitors (domestic and external) stood at 4.5 million, up 11% on 2013. 
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in 2014 external (outside NI) overnight trips increased by 4% to 2.2m. 
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over 15 million visits were made to local visitor attractions in 2014, a 3% increase on 2013. The top attractions of Giantâ€™s Causeway (0.788 million visits) and Titanic Belfast (0.634 million visits) both experienced 5% increases; 
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hotel room occupancy stood at 65% up from 64% in 2013. In total 1.85 million hotel room nights were sold in 2014; 
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last year, 69 cruise ships docked with up to 121,000 passengers/crew on board. The number of cruise ships docking here has doubled over the last three years 
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2.2m foreign visitors in Northern Ireland. 7.7m in the Republic of Ireland (Tourism Ireland report) - projected to be 12.3m in 2024 by World Travel & Tourism Council
Total foreign visitors to South Africa in 2014 - 9.6m (Tourism Dept of SA) - projected to be 13.4m in 2024 (WTTC estimate)
 
I reckon there's sufficient numbers of tourists, capacity, bed occupancy and things to do.
 
 
 
 
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Derm McCrum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="554755" data-time="1453955082">
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Rowan is claiming it wont all be in Ireland because some of the games will be played in Northern Ireland, not because they might be played in the England Scotland or Wales. Thats quite a different slant.
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Not quite right Jegga. He says that Ireland will ship a good few of the games to Britain (eng/Sco/Wal) because they won't be able to cope with the numbers of teams and visitors and not enough stadia.
 
It is an all-island bid by the IRFU with the relevant authorities involved. I'm not going to get into the politics of NI. He's claiming that because NI are involved - well that really means the UK is hosting it again.
 
Hope that explains. Cheers

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Pot Hale" data-cid="554763" data-time="1453956865">
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Not quite right Jegga. He says that Ireland will ship a good few of the games to Britain (eng/Sco/Wal) because they won't be able to cope with the numbers of teams and visitors and not enough stadia.
 
It is an all-island bid by the IRFU with the relevant authorities involved. I'm not going to get into the politics of NI. He's claiming that because NI are involved - well that really means the UK is hosting it again.
 
Hope that explains. Cheers
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He's mentioned that a few times in other posts but h'es also trying to claim even if Ireland is a standalone bid it won't count as a one country rwc.Take a look at the bolded part , in this post he's talking about the Uk being involved because the games are north of the border in northern Ireland ,no mention of games outside Ireland.
 
 
Should it go to Ireland, that would also mean, technically-speaking, that the United Kingdom were involved to some degree in hosting the event for the fifth time, given at least a few of the games would be staged north of the border

Derm McCrum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="554765" data-time="1453957385">
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He's mentioned that a few times in other posts but h'es also trying to claim even if Ireland is a standalone bid it won't count as a one country rwc.Take a look at the bolded part , in this post he's talking about the Uk being involved because the games are north of the border in northern Ireland ,no mention of games outside Ireland.
 
 
Should it go to Ireland, that would also mean, technically-speaking, that the United Kingdom were involved to some degree in hosting the event for the fifth time, given at least a few of the games would be staged north of the border
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Yes I know - that's why I said I'm not going to get into NI politics. Rugby in Ireland operates on an all-island basis, as do most other sports, with the exception of soccer. Everyone knows that. The Ireland bid is making a point of saying that it is a joint bid between the two governments - ROI govt and NI local govt. That's the reality.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Pot Hale" data-cid="554772" data-time="1453958470">Yes I know - that's why I said I'm not going to get into NI politics. Rugby in Ireland operates on an all-island basis, as do most other sports, with the exception of soccer. Everyone knows that. The Ireland bid is making a point of saying that it is a joint bid between the two governments - ROI govt and NI local govt. That's the reality.</blockquote>
 
Fair enough , no Irish person I've ever met has ever wanted to go into those issues. As an outsider it's impressive that all of it can be put aside for sport though. Stinks you never got George Best in your soccer team though.

Derm McCrum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="554712" data-time="1453945667">
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The tournament is growing with every edition. But the controversy over the 5 team groups and unequal scheduling has not gone away. There were four perfectly successful World Cups with 4 team groups and equal scheduling - NO controversy.
 
Yes, we are discussing geographical size, not population. You seem to have confused the two. Ireland is a tiny country geographically, half the size of NZ's South Island. There just isnt room for a 20 team tournament, let alone the 24 team expanded model World Rugby is contemplating. That's why I had little doubt that, within hours of being awarded a World cup, Ireland would promptly announce that a substantial number of games would be shipped to Britain. We've been duped this way before, of course. As for stadiums and hotels, I'm not so confident personally, and when it comes to stadia I have already illustrated that South Africa's are bigger, more modern and vastly more plentiful. 
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Lastly this. No room for a 20 (or 24) team tournament?
 
In 2003, Ireland was awarded the hosting of the Special Olympics - the first time it was held outside of the USA.
 
7,000 athletes with their families from 130 different countries across 15 different sporting disciplines. Plus their fans.
 
177 towns and cities put together a Host Nation programme for each of the participating country teams and made them their own in each location right across the island.
 
The country has hosted Ryder Cups (40,000 visitors a day), the Solheim women's cup, Giro d'Italia stages, etc, etc. The numbers expected for a RWC in Ireland would be around 400,000 - that'll be about 3% of projected total annual visitors in 2023.
 
I don't think it would be beyond its capacity to host it. Sure there need to be some improvements - that's inevitable. But the picture you're attempting to paint is - shall we say - a little off the mark.

Unco

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="554712" data-time="1453945667">
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The tournament is growing with every edition. But the controversy over the 5 team groups and unequal scheduling has not gone away. There were four perfectly successful World Cups with 4 team groups and equal scheduling - NO controversy.
 
Yes, we are discussing geographical size, not population. You seem to have confused the two. Ireland is a tiny country geographically, half the size of NZ's South Island. There just isnt room for a 20 team tournament, let alone the 24 team expanded model World Rugby is contemplating. That's why I had little doubt that, within hours of being awarded a World cup, Ireland would promptly announce that a substantial number of games would be shipped to Britain. We've been duped this way before, of course. As for stadiums and hotels, I'm not so confident personally, and when it comes to stadia I have already illustrated that South Africa's are bigger, more modern and vastly more plentiful. 
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Growing in terms of money maybe, not the quality of the rugby. 2015 was by far the best yet in that regard, whereas 1999 and 2007 were the absolute worst and you can only try and blame one of those on 5 team groups.
 
As someone who was living in New Zealand during the 2011 RWC, I can assure you that 20 rugby teams didn't fill up the entire South Island or even the North Island, there was plenty of space left over. So don't worry your little head over that detail, Ireland isn't going to sink under the weight of 1000 odd rugby players, coaches and management.
 
What's your next argument? Dick measuring contest?

Derm McCrum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="554774" data-time="1453959344">
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Fair enough , no Irish person I've ever met has ever wanted to go into those issues. As an outsider it's impressive that all of it can be put aside for sport though. Stinks you never got George Best in your soccer team though.
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True. A lot of people don't think about the border at all. I've got family in both parts of the country, I travel and stay there regularly. I go to matches in Belfast as easily as I go to ones in Limerick or Galway - easier in some ways.
 
Rugby started out as one country team based on four provinces 130 odd years ago - it's been that way ever since. Doesn't stop the fairly strong rivalry between the provinces though

Derm McCrum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Unco" data-cid="554776" data-time="1453959796">
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Growing in terms of money maybe, not the quality of the rugby. 2015 was by far the best yet in that regard, whereas 1999 and 2007 were the absolute worst and you can only try and blame one of those on 5 team groups.
 
As someone who was living in New Zealand during the 2011 RWC, I can assure you that 20 rugby teams didn't fill up the entire South Island or even the North Island, there was plenty of space left over. So don't worry your little head over that detail, Ireland isn't going to sink under the weight of 1000 odd rugby players, coaches and management.
 
What's your next argument? Dick measuring contest?
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It's obviously a 'big' question in South Africa - <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://gq.co.za/2015/08/penis-size-gq-answer/'>http://gq.co.za/2015/08/penis-size-gq-answer/</a>
 
Think Ireland might have to give in on that one - we're learning to accept that size isn't everything.

mooshld

Its like Rowan thinks all these players will be shoulder to shoulder, bunking down 6 to a room. Forgetting that around 6 to 7 million people visit Ireland every year. If you can't find something to do in Ireland then your not trying very hard.
 
I feel like both countries would be suitable and its just down to who puts together the best proposal. 
 
In summation 
 
Stadiums.
Yes South Africa has more seating and its newer. But Ireland's is perfectly sufficient.
 
Weather.
Its rugby no one cares about the weather.
 
Geographical size.
Don't stress everyone will fit without anyone having to stand in the Irish sea. Some people prefer to tour in a more accessible country ( Read smaller ) some people like to travel hundreds of miles.
 
Geographical location.
Ireland is closer to where the money is.
 
So I am sorry Rowan its not a given that South Africa deserve this tournament. You will have to actually put the work in and go out and win it.

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="booboo" data-cid="554722" data-time="1453948354">
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1. 99 had 4 team pools and was an abortion 
2. Seriously with the size of the land mass? Weird
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I thought 99 was fine. Kiwis are perhaps still having nightmares about the semi. There was criticism, agreed, but it was about the second round playoff system which entail 6 teams playing for the remaining quarter final spots, while the five direct qualifiers sat around twiddling their thumbs. It had nothing to do with the 4-team pools. They were perfectly efficient at the first four World Cups, and the "abortion" arrived with 5-team groups and uneven scheduling.

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Pot Hale" data-cid="554726" data-time="1453948962">
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Rowan - let's start with your personal knowledge. 
Have you lived in South Africa and for how long? 
I was there for three weeks - once. In Cape Town. That's the total sum of my personal experience of the entire country. 
You say you've been to Ireland. For how long and what time of the year and where did you stay?
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I've been to southern Africa but not South Africa itself. I've been to Ireland, yes.

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Immenso Rapido" data-cid="554728" data-time="1453949341">
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Actually the Saffas v USA game would be an example of why expanding would be a good idea. USA put out their reserves due to a short turnaround because of the odd number of teams in a pool.
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Good observation

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="554751" data-time="1453954498">
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But given that England and France have never hosted it on their own, what makes you think that Ireland will?
 
There's just no evidence to suggest that any home union will host the thing solo - why argue differently?
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</blockquote>
 
No way Ireland would host it solo. They put that in their prospectus but it's more blatant than the Trojan horse.

The Silver Fern

2023 (expanded) World Cup in South Africa