Indian Cricket Tour of NZ 2020

Gunner

@Chris-B said in Indian Cricket Tour of NZ 2020:

And I'd be tempted to play without a spinner.

Hahaha, wishful thinking.

We've been banging on about this ever since ol' Danny boy retired....

We've got to have that defensive spinner in the side who can keep it tight at one end, because NONE of our other bowlers are capable of that.....

Chris B.

@Gunner More than likely (wishful thinking).

But, I'm wondering whether we might have learned something from that 2nd ODI where we won without a spinner.

Heard Hesson discussing the topic during the last ODI and he said he'd have picked Astle, but Astle's retired. Thinks Santner will be down on confidence and Ish isn't consistent enough - but didn't endorse either of Ajaz or Someville.

Also said they're planning/expecting to leave some grass on the pitches to help defuse the Indian spinners - so if we're avoiding anything remotely spin friendly (and we should be), I reckon play 4 specialist seamers plus CdG. (And I'm going to say Boult, Wagner, Ferguson and Jamieson).

dogmeat

@Gunner said in Indian Cricket Tour of NZ 2020:

because NONE of our other bowlers are capable of that.....

Wags consistently does that more effectively than any of our spin options and has proved he can bounce back from bowling 40 overs in an innings. The Big fella can also do it when conditions suit.

@Chris-B said in Indian Cricket Tour of NZ 2020:

I'm going to say Boult, Wagner, Ferguson and Jamieson

Not saying I disagree but that's a real shit or bust option. Don't think Steads got the cojones for that call. Boult, Timmee, Wagner, Santner unless injury forces his hand. Cue much grinding of teeth.

canefan

@Chris-B said in Indian Cricket Tour of NZ 2020:

@Gunner More than likely (wishful thinking).

But, I'm wondering whether we might have learned something from that 2nd ODI where we won without a spinner.

Heard Hesson discussing the topic during the last ODI and he said he'd have picked Astle, but Astle's retired. Thinks Santner will be down on confidence and Ish isn't consistent enough - but didn't endorse either of Ajaz or Someville.

Also said they're planning/expecting to leave some grass on the pitches to help defuse the Indian spinners - so if we're avoiding anything remotely spin friendly (and we should be), I reckon play 4 specialist seamers plus CdG. (And I'm going to say Boult, Wagner, Ferguson and Jamieson).

If they do that, Little Kane has to suck it up and bowl some overs if they need a little spin as a variation. Jeet too, he has to make himself useful for something (if he makes it into the side that is). Is Ferg fit? He has a question mark on his durability after the Oz tour. If Boult is fit he will go with him, Timmy and Wags. Henry is the boring final choice, Jamieson would be a big leap from ODI, or maybe Neesh who has shown himself to be a good test batting all rounder who can bowl a bit

Chris B.

@dogmeat said in Indian Cricket Tour of NZ 2020:

@Chris-B said in Indian Cricket Tour of NZ 2020:

I'm going to say Boult, Wagner, Ferguson and Jamieson

Not saying I disagree but that's a real shit or bust option. Don't think Steads got the cojones for that call. Boult, Timmee, Wagner, Santner unless injury forces his hand. Cue much grinding of teeth.

My question for Stead and Larsen is, "How many wickets per test have NZ spinners taken in home tests in the last five seasons"? With supplementary questions relating to the sort of pitches we're planning to play the world's best players of spin bowling on.

I really can't see much point in a spinner.

I think most likely they would play Timmy ahead of Jamieson - but, with a five-pronged seam attack, I'd go for the differences that Ferg and Jamieson can bring over Tim's experience.

Gunner

Might be pretty risky picking both Boult & Ferguson (if he's fit), considering they're both coming off injury lay offs...

I think Boult, Southee and Wagner will be lock ins. They're our best ever bowling combination.

The 4th bowling spot comes down to injuries and whether or not they have the kahunas to ditch a spinner.... If Ferguson is not 100% fit, I'd go with Jamieson. But knowing the conservative nature of the selectors they'll go with Henry despite the fact he has failed to deliver in the chances he's had with the red ball.

shark

The stats re spinners taking test wickets in NZ, and particularly NZ spinners, were trotted out this arvo on RS. And they're fucking abysmal. The most any single spinner has taken in NZ in the last decade is 25. 25!!! In many other countries that's a good series!

I was already thinking we're better off not playing a spinner and the stats I heard today completely reaffirmed that for me. I'd play three specialist seamers plus CDG and Neesham, assuming he's up for the bowling.

Gunner

@shark that’s also a good option, one I hadn’t really thought of.

Strengthens the batting and will probably take more wickets than a spinner, so why not...

Godder

The Fleming model - when our options for the 4th and 5th bowler were weak, he opted for more batsmen who could roll the arm over, so players like Astle, Oram, McMillan and Styris.

nzzp

@shark said in Indian Cricket Tour of NZ 2020:

I was already thinking we're better off not playing a spinner and the stats I heard today completely reaffirmed that for me. I'd play three specialist seamers plus CDG and Neesham, assuming he's up for the bowling.

I'm not opposed to that, but I really really want a part timer to throw down a few overs. Otherwise the batsmen get set and don't have to deal with different pace; just medium/medium fast all day, mostly right arm. If you can deal with 3 top bowlers, is a part timer really going to get you out or stop up an end more than a spinner? Ashleigh Giles built a career on being a trundling half decent number 8.

Not fundamentally opposed to no spinner, but I'd probably pad the batting, and also have an answer to the captain looking around for something different halfway through the third or fourth session

canefan

@nzzp said in Indian Cricket Tour of NZ 2020:

@shark said in Indian Cricket Tour of NZ 2020:

I was already thinking we're better off not playing a spinner and the stats I heard today completely reaffirmed that for me. I'd play three specialist seamers plus CDG and Neesham, assuming he's up for the bowling.

I'm not opposed to that, but I really really want a part timer to throw down a few overs. Otherwise the batsmen get set and don't have to deal with different pace; just medium/medium fast all day, mostly right arm. If you can deal with 3 top bowlers, is a part timer really going to get you out or stop up an end more than a spinner? Ashleigh Giles built a career on being a trundling half decent number 8.

Not fundamentally opposed to no spinner, but I'd probably pad the batting, and also have an answer to the captain looking around for something different halfway through the third or fourth session

Kane will have to be our part time spinner. Unless Jeet makes the team

Chris B.

I'm more in the camp of CdG OR Neesham - and it's CdG. Neesh bowling 5th change isn't bringing anything much new - just a bit more loose.

My theory is that history tells us that whichever spinner we throw the ball to won't take a wicket when we need them to - so you just don't bother. Between Boult, Wagner, Ferg, Jamieson and CdG there's plenty of style variation so back them to do the job.

If Kane is willing to roll the arm over at 350/2 then he can bring himself on, but if he's not keen on bowling then that's not part of my equation. Chuck the ball to Wags for a bit more chin music!

Hooroo

Santner get the Spanish Archer

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/cricket/black-caps/119564134/new-zealand-vs-india-ajaz-patel-returns-kyle-jamieson-pushes-for-debut

Chris B.

@Hooroo Pleased with that team.

Would have liked to see Ferguson picked, as well (probably instead of Mitchell) - but, he'll probably be a bit underdone.

Now just need the selectors to do what they did last time in Wellington and play without a spinner.

One thing that seems really odd to me is Astle's retirement - mid-season - from playing test cricket. As this article mentions - he'd have probably had the inside running to play these tests. I guess he must have decided he doesn't like playing test cricket - or, was he given some word that he wasn't going to be picked again?

Rapido

@canefan said in Indian Cricket Tour of NZ 2020:

@nzzp said in Indian Cricket Tour of NZ 2020:

@shark said in Indian Cricket Tour of NZ 2020:

I was already thinking we're better off not playing a spinner and the stats I heard today completely reaffirmed that for me. I'd play three specialist seamers plus CDG and Neesham, assuming he's up for the bowling.

I'm not opposed to that, but I really really want a part timer to throw down a few overs. Otherwise the batsmen get set and don't have to deal with different pace; just medium/medium fast all day, mostly right arm. If you can deal with 3 top bowlers, is a part timer really going to get you out or stop up an end more than a spinner? Ashleigh Giles built a career on being a trundling half decent number 8.

Not fundamentally opposed to no spinner, but I'd probably pad the batting, and also have an answer to the captain looking around for something different halfway through the third or fourth session

Kane will have to be our part time spinner. Unless Jeet makes the team

How is his shoulder injury? Kane won't be bowling.

canefan

@Rapido said in Indian Cricket Tour of NZ 2020:

@canefan said in Indian Cricket Tour of NZ 2020:

@nzzp said in Indian Cricket Tour of NZ 2020:

@shark said in Indian Cricket Tour of NZ 2020:

I was already thinking we're better off not playing a spinner and the stats I heard today completely reaffirmed that for me. I'd play three specialist seamers plus CDG and Neesham, assuming he's up for the bowling.

I'm not opposed to that, but I really really want a part timer to throw down a few overs. Otherwise the batsmen get set and don't have to deal with different pace; just medium/medium fast all day, mostly right arm. If you can deal with 3 top bowlers, is a part timer really going to get you out or stop up an end more than a spinner? Ashleigh Giles built a career on being a trundling half decent number 8.

Not fundamentally opposed to no spinner, but I'd probably pad the batting, and also have an answer to the captain looking around for something different halfway through the third or fourth session

Kane will have to be our part time spinner. Unless Jeet makes the team

How is his shoulder injury? Kane won't be bowling.

It's the basin, do we even need a spinner? Boult, Tim, Wags, Jamieson and CdG

Rapido

@shark said in Indian Cricket Tour of NZ 2020:

The stats re spinners taking test wickets in NZ, and particularly NZ spinners, were trotted out this arvo on RS. And they're fucking abysmal. The most any single spinner has taken in NZ in the last decade is 25. 25!!! In many other countries that's a good series!

I was already thinking we're better off not playing a spinner and the stats I heard today completely reaffirmed that for me. I'd play three specialist seamers plus CDG and Neesham, assuming he's up for the bowling.

Did RS compare the NZ spinner stats v NZ seamers bowling 2nd or 3rd change?

I think you'll find Santner has been surprisingly good.

As 4th change or lower: Wagner, head, shoulders, about 10 more heads and shoulders. Then probably Santner. A fit Doug Bracewell I'd back as a Santner replacement. But Neesham, Henry, Mitchell etc I'd think would be less effective. Although Neesham's bowling does look improved. I mean Matt Henry with a new ball has much worse record than Santner, imagine giving him an old ball?

I'm not fussed if Santner gets dropped. Not because of his bowling, though. I'd prefer to be more convinced by his batting in his role.

For me, either replace him with a spinner or a batsman. Dont see what a 5th seamer adds. There are young batsmen around who can bowl part time spin. But that doesn't solve the immediate problem.

Other solution is NZ grounsdmen stop producing such boring wickets....

Must do a statsguru query to back up my hunches/observations, when i have the time.

Godder

I'd pick Neesham over Santner, but hopefully a better bowler comes along.

Apparently this will be Taylor's 100th test match, making him the first player to play 100 internationals in T20, ODIs and tests. Hopefully Kane passes him, but currently our greatest ever batsman.