Chiefs 2020
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@mariner4life said in Chiefs 2020:
@Crucial said in Chiefs 2020:
@Yeetyaah said in Chiefs 2020:
@Crucial experience, yes. Skills, debatable.
I said solid skills not outstanding skills.
I think that our high standards in looking for the exceptional in players in NZ often make us blind or overly critical to players with very good basic skill levels that would be welcome in many clubs around the world.
Anscombe and Gopperth are a couple of examples of guys that have done much better for themselves finding an environment that desires basics rather than pushing too hard for the exceptional.that is a fair point, we, as fans, have gone away from valuing "glue" players. If a bloke isn't a potential AB, we are already looking for the replacement.
True. Look at MMac's play for the Chiefs last year. He was the best option they had and once the style was adjusted so that it didn't rely on creativity from 10 they did Ok. He steered them around and sat back when the tempo increased so that others could take advantage.
A better option than throwing a green youngster with potential into the critical position. -
MMac's major problem is the talent wasn't evenly distributed in his family.
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@mariner4life said in Chiefs 2020:
@gt12 said in Chiefs 2020:
@mariner4life said in Chiefs 2020:
@Crucial said in Chiefs 2020:
@Yeetyaah said in Chiefs 2020:
@Crucial experience, yes. Skills, debatable.
I said solid skills not outstanding skills.
I think that our high standards in looking for the exceptional in players in NZ often make us blind or overly critical to players with very good basic skill levels that would be welcome in many clubs around the world.
Anscombe and Gopperth are a couple of examples of guys that have done much better for themselves finding an environment that desires basics rather than pushing too hard for the exceptional.that is a fair point, we, as fans, have gone away from valuing "glue" players. If a bloke isn't a potential AB, we are already looking for the replacement.
He wasn’t an Andrew Horrell though, that’s exactly the problem with him - reasonable goal kicking aside, he has short distance kicking with the boot, is slow as fuck, and is not a great passer - making him the perfect back up first five for Chiefs rugby. Thanks Colin!
we had more holes than just Marty. Our squad was pretty ordinary.
Agreed, but he just wasn’t quite good enough.
My personal feeling is that beyond the star power he had (Cruden, SBW, Cane, Messam, then Retallick), it was the squad selections by Rennie and his team that paid off. Horrell, Tiks, Sona, Robinson (fitting given that they are cousins) were all players who could come in and fill a role in alignment with strategy.
With Cooper it seemed to be, I know him from Taranaki, good man, that’ll do. I hope that lesson has been learned....
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@gt12 said in Chiefs 2020:
@mariner4life said in Chiefs 2020:
@gt12 said in Chiefs 2020:
@mariner4life said in Chiefs 2020:
@Crucial said in Chiefs 2020:
@Yeetyaah said in Chiefs 2020:
@Crucial experience, yes. Skills, debatable.
I said solid skills not outstanding skills.
I think that our high standards in looking for the exceptional in players in NZ often make us blind or overly critical to players with very good basic skill levels that would be welcome in many clubs around the world.
Anscombe and Gopperth are a couple of examples of guys that have done much better for themselves finding an environment that desires basics rather than pushing too hard for the exceptional.that is a fair point, we, as fans, have gone away from valuing "glue" players. If a bloke isn't a potential AB, we are already looking for the replacement.
He wasn’t an Andrew Horrell though, that’s exactly the problem with him - reasonable goal kicking aside, he has short distance kicking with the boot, is slow as fuck, and is not a great passer - making him the perfect back up first five for Chiefs rugby. Thanks Colin!
we had more holes than just Marty. Our squad was pretty ordinary.
Agreed, but he just wasn’t quite good enough.
My personal feeling is that beyond the star power he had (Cruden, SBW, Cane, then Retallick), it was the squad selections by Rennie and his team that paid off. Horrell, Tiks, Sona, Robinson (fitting given that they are cousins) were all players who could come in and fill a rule in alignment with strategy.
With Cooper it seemed to be, I know him from Taranaki, good man, that’ll do. I hope that lesson has been learned....
Rennie was pretty good at getting guys to play above themselves as well. Gave them a role in the side, and focused them on being really good at that
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@gt12 said in Chiefs 2020:
@mariner4life said in Chiefs 2020:
@gt12 said in Chiefs 2020:
@mariner4life said in Chiefs 2020:
@Crucial said in Chiefs 2020:
@Yeetyaah said in Chiefs 2020:
@Crucial experience, yes. Skills, debatable.
I said solid skills not outstanding skills.
I think that our high standards in looking for the exceptional in players in NZ often make us blind or overly critical to players with very good basic skill levels that would be welcome in many clubs around the world.
Anscombe and Gopperth are a couple of examples of guys that have done much better for themselves finding an environment that desires basics rather than pushing too hard for the exceptional.that is a fair point, we, as fans, have gone away from valuing "glue" players. If a bloke isn't a potential AB, we are already looking for the replacement.
He wasn’t an Andrew Horrell though, that’s exactly the problem with him - reasonable goal kicking aside, he has short distance kicking with the boot, is slow as fuck, and is not a great passer - making him the perfect back up first five for Chiefs rugby. Thanks Colin!
we had more holes than just Marty. Our squad was pretty ordinary.
Agreed, but he just wasn’t quite good enough.
With Cooper it seemed to be, I know him from Taranaki, good man, that’ll do. I hope that lesson has been learned....
What lesson? He was a squad filler and a fallback, not predicted to be a starter or main component.
The point I was trying to make was that this type of player is quickly dissed around here but what is the alternative you offer? Where is the queue of gun 10s that will set the tournament alight? The ones that Cooper should have added to the squad instead of MMac?
They had the young guys in there for development but they got injured and the 'safety' option had to be deployed. He was a good option in that situation is all I am saying. I don't think anyone, including Cooper, has ever seen him as a gun.
In retrospect the Blues, with their perennial issues in the position probably could have done with a 'glue' 10 and built the style around that. Get into position then strike instead of expecting a flaky 'skills' option to create a win for you. Would it have won them titles? No, but it probably would have won them more games than searching for something that wasn't there. -
@gt12 said in Chiefs 2020:
I guess the other thing about those teams were that we had AB or close to AB quality in key positions: Hooker, lock, flankers (2), hb, first five, midfield, and fb.
I’ll look forward to seeing who they roll out today.
it was a seriously good side, especially at loose forward.
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@Crucial Agree with that summary. In the Chiefs first game Cooper started Leger at 1st 5 because all the other options were injured. Debreczeni would have been their choice to play there when DMac was moved but he had a couple of false starts too.
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@Crucial said in Chiefs 2020:
@gt12 said in Chiefs 2020:
@mariner4life said in Chiefs 2020:
@gt12 said in Chiefs 2020:
@mariner4life said in Chiefs 2020:
@Crucial said in Chiefs 2020:
@Yeetyaah said in Chiefs 2020:
@Crucial experience, yes. Skills, debatable.
I said solid skills not outstanding skills.
I think that our high standards in looking for the exceptional in players in NZ often make us blind or overly critical to players with very good basic skill levels that would be welcome in many clubs around the world.
Anscombe and Gopperth are a couple of examples of guys that have done much better for themselves finding an environment that desires basics rather than pushing too hard for the exceptional.that is a fair point, we, as fans, have gone away from valuing "glue" players. If a bloke isn't a potential AB, we are already looking for the replacement.
He wasn’t an Andrew Horrell though, that’s exactly the problem with him - reasonable goal kicking aside, he has short distance kicking with the boot, is slow as fuck, and is not a great passer - making him the perfect back up first five for Chiefs rugby. Thanks Colin!
we had more holes than just Marty. Our squad was pretty ordinary.
Agreed, but he just wasn’t quite good enough.
With Cooper it seemed to be, I know him from Taranaki, good man, that’ll do. I hope that lesson has been learned....
What lesson? He was a squad filler and a fallback, not predicted to be a starter or main component.
The point I was trying to make was that this type of player is quickly dissed around here but what is the alternative you offer? Where is the queue of gun 10s that will set the tournament alight? The ones that Cooper should have added to the squad instead of MMac?
They had the young guys in there for development but they got injured and the 'safety' option had to be deployed. He was a good option in that situation is all I am saying. I don't think anyone, including Cooper, has ever seen him as a gun.
In retrospect the Blues, with their perennial issues in the position probably could have done with a 'glue' 10 and built the style around that. Get into position then strike instead of expecting a flaky 'skills' option to create a win for you. Would it have won them titles? No, but it probably would have won them more games than searching for something that wasn't there.You do like to move the goal posts don't you? I'm not looking for a 'gun' and that wasn't my argument; I'm asking the coaches to sign and look at guys beyond the ones they know and like.
MMac was picked (again) in 2018 as the third first five, which isn't so bad, until you consider that the Crusaders got rid of him and signed Mike Delany instead.
So, we brought back their cast off and didn't pursue other options, such as Hayden Parker, who was coming back from injury and wasn't re-signed (at that point, I believe), so went overseas.
He could have been an AB had we invested in him then.
The landers also had Fletcher Smith, who would end up behind Sopoaga and Josh Ioane.
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@gt12 said in Chiefs 2020:
@Crucial said in Chiefs 2020:
@gt12 said in Chiefs 2020:
@mariner4life said in Chiefs 2020:
@gt12 said in Chiefs 2020:
@mariner4life said in Chiefs 2020:
@Crucial said in Chiefs 2020:
@Yeetyaah said in Chiefs 2020:
@Crucial experience, yes. Skills, debatable.
I said solid skills not outstanding skills.
I think that our high standards in looking for the exceptional in players in NZ often make us blind or overly critical to players with very good basic skill levels that would be welcome in many clubs around the world.
Anscombe and Gopperth are a couple of examples of guys that have done much better for themselves finding an environment that desires basics rather than pushing too hard for the exceptional.that is a fair point, we, as fans, have gone away from valuing "glue" players. If a bloke isn't a potential AB, we are already looking for the replacement.
He wasn’t an Andrew Horrell though, that’s exactly the problem with him - reasonable goal kicking aside, he has short distance kicking with the boot, is slow as fuck, and is not a great passer - making him the perfect back up first five for Chiefs rugby. Thanks Colin!
we had more holes than just Marty. Our squad was pretty ordinary.
Agreed, but he just wasn’t quite good enough.
With Cooper it seemed to be, I know him from Taranaki, good man, that’ll do. I hope that lesson has been learned....
What lesson? He was a squad filler and a fallback, not predicted to be a starter or main component.
The point I was trying to make was that this type of player is quickly dissed around here but what is the alternative you offer? Where is the queue of gun 10s that will set the tournament alight? The ones that Cooper should have added to the squad instead of MMac?
They had the young guys in there for development but they got injured and the 'safety' option had to be deployed. He was a good option in that situation is all I am saying. I don't think anyone, including Cooper, has ever seen him as a gun.
In retrospect the Blues, with their perennial issues in the position probably could have done with a 'glue' 10 and built the style around that. Get into position then strike instead of expecting a flaky 'skills' option to create a win for you. Would it have won them titles? No, but it probably would have won them more games than searching for something that wasn't there.You do like to move the goal posts don't you? I'm not looking for a 'gun' and that wasn't my argument; I'm asking the coaches to sign and look at guys beyond the ones they know and like.
MMac was picked (again) in 2018 as the third first five, which isn't so bad, until you consider that the Crusaders got rid of him and signed Mike Delany instead.
So, we brought back their cast off and didn't pursue other options, such as Hayden Parker, who was coming back from injury and wasn't re-signed (at that point, I believe), so went overseas.
He could have been an AB had we invested in him then.
The landers also had Fletcher Smith, who would end up behind Sopoaga and Josh Ioane.
A lot of assumption there. You know what happened in the recruiting? I don't.
There is also this thing (and it will come out again tonight) where players are viewed as commodities like a US pro sport. If you want them, you can get them, with no choice from the player.
Who is to say that Fletcher Smith wasn't approached but weighed up staying around his family and friends to be backup in a team with a development pathway already in place for him against moving to the unknown?
I'd probably choose Delany over MMac as well, but there isn't much in it and Delany was way more likely to go to a strong contender than be third choice elsewhere.As for Parker, again you are guessing that he was shopping around at the right time with the right people just to make your point.
My point was that MMac wasn't a massively bad option given what else was out there and you have hardly proved otherwise. I understand that one of the reasons he was picked was the training value that he adds. Apparently he is a good coach in the making and has a really good rapport with the others meaning that he makes a great conduit between the coaches and players.Do coaches have to select someone they don't know just to please your concept of favouritism when they are deliberately selecting someone they know because of proven attributes they can bring to the table?
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@Crucial said in Chiefs 2020:
@gt12 said in Chiefs 2020:
@Crucial said in Chiefs 2020:
@gt12 said in Chiefs 2020:
@mariner4life said in Chiefs 2020:
@gt12 said in Chiefs 2020:
@mariner4life said in Chiefs 2020:
@Crucial said in Chiefs 2020:
@Yeetyaah said in Chiefs 2020:
@Crucial experience, yes. Skills, debatable.
I said solid skills not outstanding skills.
I think that our high standards in looking for the exceptional in players in NZ often make us blind or overly critical to players with very good basic skill levels that would be welcome in many clubs around the world.
Anscombe and Gopperth are a couple of examples of guys that have done much better for themselves finding an environment that desires basics rather than pushing too hard for the exceptional.that is a fair point, we, as fans, have gone away from valuing "glue" players. If a bloke isn't a potential AB, we are already looking for the replacement.
He wasn’t an Andrew Horrell though, that’s exactly the problem with him - reasonable goal kicking aside, he has short distance kicking with the boot, is slow as fuck, and is not a great passer - making him the perfect back up first five for Chiefs rugby. Thanks Colin!
we had more holes than just Marty. Our squad was pretty ordinary.
Agreed, but he just wasn’t quite good enough.
With Cooper it seemed to be, I know him from Taranaki, good man, that’ll do. I hope that lesson has been learned....
What lesson? He was a squad filler and a fallback, not predicted to be a starter or main component.
The point I was trying to make was that this type of player is quickly dissed around here but what is the alternative you offer? Where is the queue of gun 10s that will set the tournament alight? The ones that Cooper should have added to the squad instead of MMac?
They had the young guys in there for development but they got injured and the 'safety' option had to be deployed. He was a good option in that situation is all I am saying. I don't think anyone, including Cooper, has ever seen him as a gun.
In retrospect the Blues, with their perennial issues in the position probably could have done with a 'glue' 10 and built the style around that. Get into position then strike instead of expecting a flaky 'skills' option to create a win for you. Would it have won them titles? No, but it probably would have won them more games than searching for something that wasn't there.You do like to move the goal posts don't you? I'm not looking for a 'gun' and that wasn't my argument; I'm asking the coaches to sign and look at guys beyond the ones they know and like.
MMac was picked (again) in 2018 as the third first five, which isn't so bad, until you consider that the Crusaders got rid of him and signed Mike Delany instead.
So, we brought back their cast off and didn't pursue other options, such as Hayden Parker, who was coming back from injury and wasn't re-signed (at that point, I believe), so went overseas.
He could have been an AB had we invested in him then.
The landers also had Fletcher Smith, who would end up behind Sopoaga and Josh Ioane.
A lot of assumption there. You know what happened in the recruiting? I don't.
There is also this thing (and it will come out again tonight) where players are viewed as commodities like a US pro sport. If you want them, you can get them, with no choice from the player.
Who is to say that Fletcher Smith wasn't approached but weighed up staying around his family and friends to be backup in a team with a development pathway already in place for him against moving to the unknown?
I'd probably choose Delany over MMac as well, but there isn't much in it and Delany was way more likely to go to a strong contender than be third choice elsewhere.As for Parker, again you are guessing that he was shopping around at the right time with the right people just to make your point.
My point was that MMac wasn't a massively bad option given what else was out there and you have hardly proved otherwise. I understand that one of the reasons he was picked was the training value that he adds. Apparently he is a good coach in the making and has a really good rapport with the others meaning that he makes a great conduit between the coaches and players.Do coaches have to select someone they don't know just to please your concept of favouritism when they are deliberately selecting someone they know because of proven attributes they can bring to the table?
He had been tried and found wanting by the previous coaches - then let go - but was brought back - by his provincial coach - while, other, better, players had to look overseas (quote below from Dec 9, 2017, and it's worth noting that Cooper was appointed in Dec 2016):
Parker said with nothing on the horizon for next season — he missed out on the Highlanders — the Sunwolves had got in touch through his agent and he took up the offer.
"I had a bit of a decision to make. Should I stay or should I go? But in the end I decided to go over. I have just signed the one-year contract," he said.
Parker looking forward to getting on field for Sunwolves
Hayden Parker just wants to get back on the field and may have headed overseas regardless of the injuries that have plagued his career. Parker was...
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@gt12 said in Chiefs 2020:
@Crucial said in Chiefs 2020:
@gt12 said in Chiefs 2020:
@Crucial said in Chiefs 2020:
@gt12 said in Chiefs 2020:
@mariner4life said in Chiefs 2020:
@gt12 said in Chiefs 2020:
@mariner4life said in Chiefs 2020:
@Crucial said in Chiefs 2020:
@Yeetyaah said in Chiefs 2020:
@Crucial experience, yes. Skills, debatable.
I said solid skills not outstanding skills.
I think that our high standards in looking for the exceptional in players in NZ often make us blind or overly critical to players with very good basic skill levels that would be welcome in many clubs around the world.
Anscombe and Gopperth are a couple of examples of guys that have done much better for themselves finding an environment that desires basics rather than pushing too hard for the exceptional.that is a fair point, we, as fans, have gone away from valuing "glue" players. If a bloke isn't a potential AB, we are already looking for the replacement.
He wasn’t an Andrew Horrell though, that’s exactly the problem with him - reasonable goal kicking aside, he has short distance kicking with the boot, is slow as fuck, and is not a great passer - making him the perfect back up first five for Chiefs rugby. Thanks Colin!
we had more holes than just Marty. Our squad was pretty ordinary.
Agreed, but he just wasn’t quite good enough.
With Cooper it seemed to be, I know him from Taranaki, good man, that’ll do. I hope that lesson has been learned....
What lesson? He was a squad filler and a fallback, not predicted to be a starter or main component.
The point I was trying to make was that this type of player is quickly dissed around here but what is the alternative you offer? Where is the queue of gun 10s that will set the tournament alight? The ones that Cooper should have added to the squad instead of MMac?
They had the young guys in there for development but they got injured and the 'safety' option had to be deployed. He was a good option in that situation is all I am saying. I don't think anyone, including Cooper, has ever seen him as a gun.
In retrospect the Blues, with their perennial issues in the position probably could have done with a 'glue' 10 and built the style around that. Get into position then strike instead of expecting a flaky 'skills' option to create a win for you. Would it have won them titles? No, but it probably would have won them more games than searching for something that wasn't there.You do like to move the goal posts don't you? I'm not looking for a 'gun' and that wasn't my argument; I'm asking the coaches to sign and look at guys beyond the ones they know and like.
MMac was picked (again) in 2018 as the third first five, which isn't so bad, until you consider that the Crusaders got rid of him and signed Mike Delany instead.
So, we brought back their cast off and didn't pursue other options, such as Hayden Parker, who was coming back from injury and wasn't re-signed (at that point, I believe), so went overseas.
He could have been an AB had we invested in him then.
The landers also had Fletcher Smith, who would end up behind Sopoaga and Josh Ioane.
A lot of assumption there. You know what happened in the recruiting? I don't.
There is also this thing (and it will come out again tonight) where players are viewed as commodities like a US pro sport. If you want them, you can get them, with no choice from the player.
Who is to say that Fletcher Smith wasn't approached but weighed up staying around his family and friends to be backup in a team with a development pathway already in place for him against moving to the unknown?
I'd probably choose Delany over MMac as well, but there isn't much in it and Delany was way more likely to go to a strong contender than be third choice elsewhere.As for Parker, again you are guessing that he was shopping around at the right time with the right people just to make your point.
My point was that MMac wasn't a massively bad option given what else was out there and you have hardly proved otherwise. I understand that one of the reasons he was picked was the training value that he adds. Apparently he is a good coach in the making and has a really good rapport with the others meaning that he makes a great conduit between the coaches and players.Do coaches have to select someone they don't know just to please your concept of favouritism when they are deliberately selecting someone they know because of proven attributes they can bring to the table?
He had been tried and found wanting by the previous coaches - then let go - but was brought back - by his provincial coach - while, other, better, players had to look overseas (quote below from Dec 9, 2017, and it's worth noting that Cooper was appointed in Dec 2016):
Parker said with nothing on the horizon for next season — he missed out on the Highlanders — the Sunwolves had got in touch through his agent and he took up the offer.
"I had a bit of a decision to make. Should I stay or should I go? But in the end I decided to go over. I have just signed the one-year contract," he said.
Parker looking forward to getting on field for Sunwolves
Hayden Parker just wants to get back on the field and may have headed overseas regardless of the injuries that have plagued his career. Parker was...
And at that stage Parker was considered an average signing (just as MMac was).
Love your hindsight BTW. Can we now go back and fix the RWC team selections as well? -
CHIEFS 2020 SQUAD (first full-time contract with the Chiefs)
FORWARDS: Nathan Harris, Bradley Slater, Samisoni Taukei'aho, Ryan Coxon, Nepo Laulala, Atunaisa Moli, Reuben O'Neill, Aidan Ross, Angus Ta'avao, Naitoa Ah Kuoi, Tyler Ardron, Michael Allardice, Laghlan McWhannell, Lachlan Boshier, Mitchell Brown, Sam Cane, Pita Gus Sowakula, Luke Jacobson, Mitchell Karpik, Dylan Nel.
BACKS: Lisati Milo-Harris, Te Toiroa Tahuriorangi, Brad Weber, Aaron Cruden, Tiaan Falcon, Damian McKenzie, Kaleb Trask, Orbyn Leger, Anton Lienert-Brown, Tumua Manu, Alex Nankivell, Bailyn Sullivan, Solomon Alaimalo, Sam McNicol, Kini Naholo, Etene Nanai-Seturo, Shaun Stevenson, Quinn Tupaea, Sean Wainui. -
@Stargazer McNicol is in the Chiefs squad.
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