RWC Final: England v Springboks
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@TeWaio said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
This modern trend of this trend of super mobile ball running props makes it easy to forget how absolutely important scrums are. You are screwed in a tight game if your scrum gets hammered: any dropped ball = youget ball back or a penalty, any penalty within 50m = chance for points. Same principle for the trend of selecting smaller locks who are brilliant in the loose (Itoje @ 1.95m) and two 7s - you are giving up second row power and it matters.
I get your point and respect it, but you also need to realise how good this tight five (ten, or is that eleven if you count PSDT) of South Africa is.
Beast might lack the subtly of Sinckler or the ball carrying of Vunipolu the fatter, but he is busy around the park clearing out and tackling hard. Marx, Kitshoff and (especially) Snyman are super slick ball in hand. Mostert is a lock sized human being (don't be fooled by how he looks next to his locking partners) with an engine like nobody's business.
Tribute to these guys for working their game to get it where it is. Beast started out as a blindside, yet today he is capable of winning a world cup final off the back of his scrummaging. Kitshoff started out as bit of pot plant prop, but his ball handling and carrying is truly world class.
One of the things in the build up that annoyed me was how often the British scribes pulled out the old cliches - South Africa is big/slow, will tire, lack skills, etc. It just seemed lazy and short sighted to base all the analysis on what was admittedly a poor performance against Wales.
***This post is not meant to deify the springbok team. They did/do have weaknesses - Marx and Mbonambi are prone to yips in the line-out. Beast and Etsebeth, despite the power and speed, are not great ball carriers. Du Toit's running game seems to have disappeared just as his defensive game has become the best in the world, etc etc.
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@SidBarret said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
@TeWaio said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
This modern trend of this trend of super mobile ball running props makes it easy to forget how absolutely important scrums are. You are screwed in a tight game if your scrum gets hammered: any dropped ball = youget ball back or a penalty, any penalty within 50m = chance for points. Same principle for the trend of selecting smaller locks who are brilliant in the loose (Itoje @ 1.95m) and two 7s - you are giving up second row power and it matters.
One of the things in the build up that annoyed me was how often the British scribes pulled out the old cliches - South Africa is big/slow, will tire, lack skills, etc. It just seemed lazy and short sighted to base all the analysis on what was admittedly a poor performance against Wales.
Tired cliches and overrating their team/underrating the opponent based on one game is the foundation of a lot of rugby journalism.
If there is a silver lining to our loss it might be giving them a false sense of their superiority that hurt their performance. If you were to read a lot of analysis prior, they were better man for man and only had to turn up.
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@Smuts said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
And then, 4 minutes after half time Rassie made an inspired double prop substitution searching for the penalty. That penalty took as 2 scores clear and the game was, for all intents and purposes, won.
I’m surprised more people haven’t highlighted the tactical significance of that substitution. That was genius.
Thanks mate
I am kinda whispering this - but had we lost I think that substitution would have been questioned a lot more.
Beast and Malherbe were well on top and leaving them another 10 minutes (they just had a fifteen minute sitdown) seemed to be more sensible to leave even fresher legs for the last ten minutes of the game.
That first scrum is also questioned by some on the basis that the english loosehead moved forward (while to my eyes at least their tighthead buckled in under presssure).
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@SidBarret Yeah somehow after that scrum, we lost dominance. No doubt we'll get a thorough analysis of the scrum battle in due course.
My point is specifically that Rassie made those substitutions to milk that penalty. And without the benefit of hindsight, at that stage, you would have backed Kitshoff and Koch to dial the pressure up rather than how it played out. I liked it at the time and still do, even though the Poms managed to craft an edge at the scrum afterward.
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Maro's balanced, humble take
'The Springboks straightened us' - Maro Itoje's take on England's loss
Pointing the finger of blame in the wake of losing the biggest match of your career is difficult but Maro Itoje believes England's penalty count hit them hard.
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Brian Moore would have made a difference on Saturday
Rugby union great tells Boris Johnson to f*** off for exploiting World Cup final – then doubles down
Brian Moore’s already-viral message to Johnson couldn’t have been pithier – and when challenged, he underscored it England rugby hero Brian Moore in his heyday England rugby great…
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And he is saying the right things - both to us South African supporters and the Englishmen at home. Good for him. I get the argument that "that under pressure the true you comes out" etc, but fuck it. As a springbok fan I don't need him to kneel down and kiss the ring.
He might act like a cock, but if it doesn't actually affect the game I am good fine with it. Don't want him to celebrate, don't give him a reason to.
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@Billy-Webb said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
So I'm finally ready to post some thoughts on this game.
To start, my commiserations to the England guys on TSF. Right now it won't feel fantastic, but you can be proud of your team's performance over the course of this RWC. You played some excellent rugby and were deserved finalists.
But as opposed to SA's semi against Wales where the Boks played not to lose, in the final England ran into a Bok team that actually played to win. In addition to the usual forward grunt, box kicks and swarming defence, the Boks decided to also run at the English. This, together with early good field position, the loss of Sinckler, the Bok scrum dominance and then the first 3 points, I think put the English on the back foot. And they never really recovered.
It was without a doubt the best game the Boks played the whole tournament. Hard, uncompromising, disciplined and smart. I couldn't be more proud of them. This feels at least as good as 1995. Maybe even better because there were no Luyt-like dickhead statements afterwards from SA officials - at least none that I have seen
Not on their watch, so to speak...
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Is Gavin Rich respected or the South African Stephen Jones?
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@jegga said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
Is Gavin Rich respected
I just read the article and the answer to your question is, no, not by me.
Comments like these:
"The Boks, with that magnificent pack, never looked like being outplayed."and yet they lost a match...(he is referring to the whole tournament there)
but apparently due to this v the ABs:
"it was really only some dubious refereeing"Twat.
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@Snowy said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
@jegga said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
Is Gavin Rich respected
I just read the article and the answer to your question is, no, not by me.
Comments like these:
"The Boks, with that magnificent pack, never looked like being outplayed."and yet they lost a match...(he is referring to the whole tournament there)
but apparently due to this v the ABs:
"it was really only some dubious refereeing"Twat.
Yeah he struck me as being a bit of a cock with some of the thrashwanking about the pool game . Bizarrely he actually admitted the boks weren’t the best team in 2007 and 1995 .
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I don't mind most of that article - the headline is a bit misleading. The bit that seems weird to me is this bit:
"The All Blacks knew that too, and perhaps that set them on the path to their calamitous semifinal no-show against England. Their coach Steve Hansen had said during the week that the All Blacks' main threat was the Boks. It was the line being peddled by the Kiwi media. It was the wrong thing to say and the wrong thing to think."
The only thing I heard Hansen saying was you've got to play well this week and if you play well enough to win you earn the right to play the following week. And if you don't you go home. Looking ahead to the Boks being the biggest threat would have been completely the opposite to anything I heard him saying (and I'm sure would have been widely reported in NZ media). I daresay there were some media people who thought the Boks would be the biggest threat. There were a lot more who thought we'd meet them in the final if we got there. Which would've been true.
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@Machpants said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
@booboo said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
Meh. We'll never know.
Boks didn't play the All Blacks.
Yes they did, All Blacks won.
Oh poor naive @Machpants , it was down to the ref . The boks were clearly the better team
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@jegga said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
@Machpants said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
@booboo said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
Meh. We'll never know.
Boks didn't play the All Blacks.
Yes they did, All Blacks won.
Oh poor naive @Machpants , it was down to the ref . The boks were clearly the better team
Correct. But we still won, evvn if it was a World Rugby fix!
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@Machpants said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
@jegga said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
@Machpants said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
@booboo said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
Meh. We'll never know.
Boks didn't play the All Blacks.
Yes they did, All Blacks won.
Oh poor naive @Machpants , it was down to the ref . The boks were clearly the better team
Correct. But we still won, evvn if it was a World Rugby fix!
If fucking Jaco Peyper had just gone back to his hotel....
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@jegga said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
Is Gavin Rich respected or the South African Stephen Jones?
Ugh.
It's this sort of revisionist, clever after the fact crap I was really hoping we wouldn't see.Stick with Rassie's post match press conference. We prepared well, we played well, but we also had our slice of luck.
While it is amazing to have won the title, the top 4 or 5 teams were all pretty close.
We could so easily have been playing for bronze and Wales competing for the title... -
@Billy-Webb said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
Ugh.
It's this sort of revisionist, clever after the fact crap I was really hoping we wouldn't see.Stick with Rassie's post match press conference. We prepared well, we played well, but we also had our slice of luck.
While it is amazing to have won the title, the top 4 or 5 teams were all pretty close.
We could so easily have been playing for bronze and Wales competing for the title...Don't stress. The headline is worse than the article, which one line aside, is a fairly balanced and decent one.
Twitter aside, the SA reaction to winning has been rather impressive and softened my stance of supporting England.
