Northland Rugby
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@taniwharugby said in Northland vs BOP:
@Nath-Jac said in Northland vs BOP:
said that the word going around was northland shd would be better off in heartland rugby, now if this kind of talk is happening then its time that the place has a big shake up as Northland are better than that
sadly, there have been some with that view for many years, even @J77 old mate with the Northland age, he has been banging that drum for over a decade. (does he even still write, or did he get sacked?)
Dropping down would make it even worse, club footy already has issues, with the disparity in quality form the top to bottom, if we dropped, the top quality would drop, and with that, overall level does too.
We need to work on the junior grades too, keep kids here, or ensure there is a pathway back...I know of a few talented Year 9 kids heading to top Auckland schools next year, chances are, they wont be back,plus the ones who started high school in auckland year 9...I only know of the ones in this grade as its the one I coach in, so I expect there will be some year 8s off to Auckland schools, year 10s getting nabbed too.
While WBHS has improved in being part of the North Harbour comp, and I understand they are getting majority of thier boys back, the 1st 15 comp in Northland otherwise, is all but non-existent, this to me is worrying.
He still writes, and he’s still a prized knob.
Heartland is definitely not the place for us. Can’t believe people are still suggesting that.
Like others have said here, I just think we need better leadership off the paddock (coaches, trainers, board, sponsors). We have the stock, but it’s almost as if our system is stuck in a time warp.
As @muddyriver suggested the years of 2017 and 2018 were underachieved. We had the team to have a decent crack at the final at least, but just limped into the semis only to get thumped.
The team we’re playing this week, BOP is a good example of we could be achieving. Well coached, good systems in place and the desire to go all the way.
I hope we pull one out of the bag this week, as we usually do well against BOP, but it’ll take a massive effort to do so. Fingers crossed.
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@J77 starting another union in the far North won’t hide the fact that even though there are many talented players they will still rock up with skill issues ,wether it be simple draw and pass or playing to a game plan and with intensity required to go to another level ..
I have heard some club games in the far North tend to mirror a game of league with forwards continuously smashing into contact ,not looking to pass..so you have got to question some of the coaching ,now I could be totally off the mark here, but you do wonder..
I have known and seen many talented players , but sometimes it’s the little things that require Zero talent sets the ones that go further
Here’s 10 of them ..Zero talent required..1.Being on time
2.Work ethic
3.Effort
4.Body Language
5.Energy
6.Attitude
7.Passion
8.Being coachable
9.Doing Extras
10.Being Prepared -
@Steven-Harris said in Northland vs BOP:
@J77 starting another union in the far North won’t hide the fact that even though there are many talented players they will still rock up with skill issues ,wether it be simple draw and pass or playing to a game plan and with intensity required to go to another level ..
Going on evidence of Far North club rugby, a Heartland side based there would get drilled even in that competition. You would be relying on the likes of Kerikeri and Moerewa to provide most players.
Don’t even like imagining that scenario anyway, Northland is one province from south to north and will always remain that way.
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@muddyriver you make some good points, I can’t help feel that we suffer with the quality of our club rugby, sure you might get the odd game where you have intensity for 80 minutes, but it would be fair to say there’s some average stuff out there..
I have always noticed ,some of the boys over the years that have played in the Auckland club comp always seem to bring an extra bit of intensity to the Taniwha ..
The Pryor boys,even though Kara was frustrating with the amount of penalties he gave away..Tom Robinson and Matt Matich ..just seem to play with an intensity which they gained playing in the Auckland comp..be interested to get your thoughts..
I like your point about Ranger, he adds so much attacking knowledge to a team and I think Debreczini looks to or 3 steps ahead of the rest of the backs with the way he views the game.. -
Hmmm...yeah...a Heartland side in the far north...nah. Maybe if the Northland side was going gangbusters you might think about it, and then say nah! The only heartland expansion I can see, and a bit surprised it hasn't all ready, is a Canterbury Country team. North Canterbury that is. They would be very competitive from kick off.
Northland should look south. I'd love to see the Mahurangi club prised away from North Harbour union. Kaipara Flats, Warkworth and Omaha were part of the North Auckland union for decades. Might be wrong, but I dont think they have ever won a North Harbour title. They would be a power house in the Northland comp, give the local club scene a boost.
As for schools. Well. I went to school in Ta$man, so I always compare what goes on there with here. Ta$man; 2 boys (& 2 girls) schools, 5 high schools, 4 area schools. Similar to Northland. Nelson College has become a perennial contender for the Crusaders and South Island titles, and feeds a steady stream of players into the Mako and Super rugby. Schools rugby has definitely kicked on in Ta$man, but seems to have regressed in the North. The Moascar Cup actually bounced around in the north (and far north) for a decade. So the situation has been different. Whangarei BHS to North Harbour is a good move. Ta$man also have a combined schools team in the Crusaders comp, maybe Northland could do something similar. Combine the rest of the Whangarei schools, or the Bay of Islands schools and send them into the North Harbour comp as well.
Now for the Taniwha. Apart from 12 and 13 the raw material actually looks ok. While not dominant, the forwards look allright, set piece ok, go forward ok. But back play is dire. And fitness questionable. These are coaching and development issues to me. Witcombe and Konia cant be happy. So the real problems are off field. I think about everyone agrees on that. They need to get some humility at Northland HQ and go and have a very close look at what similar provinces are doing. The likes of Hawke's Bay, Taranaki, Bay of Plenty. Northland rank about 9th in the NPC demographics table. This suggests that Championship play-offs every season is not an unreasonable expectation.
Finally. I noticed the game broadcast on the weekend used Te Tai Tokerau name as well as Northland. Not wanting to upset anyone, but the Northland name has never had much mana for me. What do we think about an official name change? I'm pakeha, if you were wondering
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@mohikamo said in Northland vs BOP:
Whangarei BHS to North Harbour is a good move.
I pretty much agree with what you have said, except probably this part, while I am not against it as it is good for WBHS, I also feel this has affected the 1st 15 comp in Whangarei and Northland.
I know it is years ago now, but when I played 1st 15, there were guys from all over Northland that went on to play professional rugby and league, some right to the highest level, but Northland wide, the comp was strong, even if we still got dusted up by bigger (physically) Auckland schools more often than not, not alot changed there.
My understanding is NRU had been looking at trying to push kids back into schools for thier rugby and away from clubs (there is part of me that agrees, part that disagrees with this) however the only way this works is if they in turn force WBHS to come back and play locally, which in itself would create an issue, particularly the furst few years until other schools got thier programs back and improved.
That said, how many parents of kids at WBHS would then send thier kids to an Auckland school for that bigger exposure?
Plenty of Northland kids end up in the Auckland school system, some go in year 9, some year 10 and others later, and you know some will thrive in the environment playing a higher level week in week out.
Are a few names I will be watching in the future though, if they stick with it, they will play provincial rugby for sure and maybe higher again.
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@taniwharugby Dead against the move of WBHS into North Harbour competition. We don’t want to encourage boys playing in Auckland rather than at Home, or boys playing for WBHS rather than their local school. The long term game is a better Northland competition. Anything that detracts from that is an issue.
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@kev northland have tried to get the 18s going and south of whangarei there is enough players to make this happen, the issue tho are some clubs wont support it as they need these kids to make up the reserves team which ends up pushing the kids that cant match the phisical aspects of prem rugby out of the game. The reserves comp i feel is the comp that needs to be targeted for improvment, the 4 clubs each year that make the playoffs in prem rugby are always big in numbers, reserve team is usually competative, as everything flows back into trainings etc, the clubs that struggle have no numbers and rely on our young kids to make up the numbers. By end of season only the brave are left trying to hold the fort.
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@Nath-Jac Its a great point -those ages between school and being physically mature enough for Prems is where players are lost to rugby. As TR mentioned, pushing boys back to school rugby teams is having a big impact on survival of Club rugby. At the very least there should be a school / club affiliation. Maybe some type of joint register of interested players with a Northland development programme (online tools supported by local coaches) provided based on assessments of where the individual is at - and aimed at everyone rather than just elite. Not sure what we do now?
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@kev they had an U14 development day a few weeks back, where all boys born after 01/01/2005 were invited.
It included a trial of sorts for the Northland U14 team, that I believe has a 'warm up' game against a central NI team, before thier 'proper' U14 game against an Auckland team I think.
Many boys who are no where near 'elite' were able to attend, but what I do like in that case, particularly when I think of my son...they get a different coach teaching them.
Sure the basic fundamentals might be the same, but often delivered differently or just a different voice can have an affect on how the boys receive the coaching.
I guess the other issue Northland has is the number of kids, with no U15 or U17 team, which fills that gap before they are able to go to Seniors, although I think they are only allowed 2 players eligible for U18 on the field for Seniors?
I hate the Prem/Reserves both must field a team otherwise both default crap...that does not help.
Sure the basic premise is more clubs, more teams, but if a team cant field 2 senior sides, then they are at risk of fines.
I dont have any ideas on fixing the problems, I just know there are many, that I assume are faced by Provinces all over NZ.
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@taniwharugby i think fielding 2 teams has to be done to preserve the comp but a simple switch of playing the prem game first could imptove the issue, it would mean we get a prem team with full reserves then a reserve team that is backed up by prem players, it could also sort out the front row issues for the struggling clubs, then at times a club could travel with limited numbers and compete in both games.
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@Nath-Jac yeah I understand why they do it, but it puts undue pressure on the clubs when they are struggling for numbers anyway.
YOur idea makes sense, but with everything geared toward the Prem side, I doubt it'd get off the ground as they wouldnt have prems playing at 12.30 or reserves k/o at 4pm.
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@taniwharugby said in Northland vs BOP:
@mohikamo said in Northland vs BOP:
Whangarei BHS to North Harbour is a good move.
I pretty much agree with what you have said, except probably this part, while I am not against it as it is good for WBHS, I also feel this has affected the 1st 15 comp in Whangarei and Northland.
I know it is years ago now, but when I played 1st 15, there were guys from all over Northland that went on to play professional rugby and league, some right to the highest level, but Northland wide, the comp was strong, even if we still got dusted up by bigger (physically) Auckland schools more often than not, not alot changed there.
My understanding is NRU had been looking at trying to push kids back into schools for thier rugby and away from clubs (there is part of me that agrees, part that disagrees with this) however the only way this works is if they in turn force WBHS to come back and play locally, which in itself would create an issue, particularly the furst few years until other schools got thier programs back and improved.
That said, how many parents of kids at WBHS would then send thier kids to an Auckland school for that bigger exposure?
Plenty of Northland kids end up in the Auckland school system, some go in year 9, some year 10 and others later, and you know some will thrive in the environment playing a higher level week in week out.
Are a few names I will be watching in the future though, if they stick with it, they will play provincial rugby for sure and maybe higher again.
The problem with the WBHS 1stXV in a Northland Comp was competition. I was in the Sports Dept when this was going through, and all that NRU could organise was 5 Wednesday afternoon games, the other schools were struggling to get a 1st XV, and WBHS wouldn't have any 2nd XV games (no comp). Now Our 2nd XV plays vs the other schools, with top ups from the 1sts, and is competitive. The major problem with all this was other schools struggling for players.
But best thing for the individual is go to a big AKL school, but WBHS in NH is perfect for the school. The competition level is right, and we get our 2nds playing as well.
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@Machpants yeah appreciate all that, but as I said, from what I gather NRU is trying to push the rugby side of things back on schools, but without WBHS I dont think that can ever happen successfully...and I cant see WBHS wanting to come back into the local comp.
I mean Kamo High is a good example, they have an ex Northland dev team Coach, a current Northland Dev team player and an ex-Northland/Waikato player on thier staff and they dont have a 1st 15 program (well nothing significant that I am aware of anyway)
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@taniwharugby that was a cool initiative with the 14 year old teams. Like to see that sort of thing with a bit more structure for the boys from 14 - 18, not too young.
The question I have about school boy rugby in Northland is what are the NRU doing? When I played in Waikato ( after being brought up playing club rugby in Northland ) I got the sense of tradition and how important school rugby was. Long time ago now but is sounds like nothing has changed back home. It we can’t create the tradition, maybe they create a sub union level competition?
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@kev as I said above, they were sounding clubs out about pushing things back to school, but not sure how that would look.
I mean this season there were 8 U14 teams, MId Northern, Marist, Kamo, City, Tikpunga, Northern Wairoa, Otamatea and Hora Hora...
so thats 6 teams in Whangarei, how do they push that many back into Boys HIgh and Kamo, without going down the 'elite' type scenario they are trying to avoid these days?
PLus, if kids leave clubs (as the odd ones are forced to do depending on age/weights) it detracts from fostering strong ties to clubs.
As above, there is no U15 grade for the kids to move into next year, straight to U16, Marist already fell apart in U14 this year, no idea what has happened to those boys.
I know Kamo will probably struggle to field an U16 team due to half thier team being small enough to play U14 again next year, and some parents already indicated that they would keep thier boys down.
City were pretty well resourced, although I think they have had a couple of thier better players head to Auckland schools, Mid NOrthern will be lucky in that half thier team this year were the older kids under the weight limit to stay down this year, so they should all move through to U16 easily enough.
Apparently there were 4 teams in the NOrth Zone, Kaitaia, Aupori, Te Rarawa and KeriKeri so played one another 4 times.
Apparently one option next year is to open it up NOrthland wide for U16, where there will be 10 teams at best, probably 9 as I reckon Tikipunga will drop out too.
For me, U14 and U16 are hugely important, these are the ages kids are dropping out and the one NZR and all these sports administrators are saying we need to do more to keep involved, but I dont know how, and neither do anyone else I dont think.
TR JNr has said if he doesnt grow much over summer (and is too big to stay in U14) he wont be playing U16....so he might not be leaving for the reasons of elitism and so on we keep hearing, but it is still a reason why other kids leave...although I think he will be fine and end up playing
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@taniwharugby to be honest I prefer the Club rugby setup. More inclusive and less elite.
But those drop offs in numbers are huge. Do the boys play touch during summer? Keep them with the club and in the system. That’s the way we need to think. Keep them in contact with the club ( sports club rather just rugby club ) building skills and fitness for life. A broad base will give the best results.
I always played weight restricted rugby at club level, didn’t play in 6th form, then first fifteen, didn’t play at varsity, then played under 77kgs in Auckland rugby which is now under 85kg. Our team played touch during summer and then morphed into cricket when we got older. But that grade kept me in rugby, sport etc.
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@Machpants At the end of the day sport should be fun. All the kids should want to participate just because of that. What is sports participation like now in schools? I know devices have changed all our habits, and work pushing into weekends and nights for parents means less time for structured community activities like clubs.
