2019 under 20's
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@98blueandgold said in 2019 under 20's:
Has been a dire under 20 campaign full stop. Seemed to me they looked arrogant like they are living on past glory of teams.
Will be interesting what comes out of this, if we want to compete we need to probably play more games like Sth A who do tours to NH. Can’t see us centralising system.
Every 3 or so years we will have great teams full of talent like 2015, 17 but I’m not sure how many of these players will kick on, as Mr Philpott says it should be judged on!
Australia making final they will be loving it and hopefully for them will kick on to national team.I don't get the "arrogant". Who was arrogant? Maybe the coaches, but I didn't see arrogance (or complacency, if that's what you really mean) from the players. I didn't see anyone "living on past glory". Can you give a few examples, because I haven't seen it?
I saw mostly ineptitude. First and foremost from the coaches, who didn't select the best possible team and didn't seem able to come up with a good game plan.
Also lack of skills and too many handling errors from players, which in the last game can be partially blamed on the wet weather, but can also be due to whatever they have been doing or not doing during training; and obviously, some players not being good enough. However, in this respect it must be pointed out that I have seen bad ball handling from players who have shown plenty of skill during last year's Mitre 10 Cup, like Tupaea, Proctor, Gregory etc.
What has been most noteworthy is the lack of game management. The team was without a pivot capable of changing things up when something didn't work. Why did Burke get so much game time? He can't steer the ship or kick. I haven't seen the rest of tonight's game yet, so don't know whether Reihana got game time, but if he has been injured for the last two games, why didn't they call up McClutchie (or Trask)? If this campaign was about developing NPC or SR players (and not about winning the tournament), the failure of reaching the top 4 isn't an excuse for not calling in reinforcements in case of injury.
There are also several players in this team who haven't lost the schoolboy habit of going for glory themselves instead of passing to team mates; I saw impatience and maybe lack of faith in fellow players (sometimes justified, but no excuse for impatience). Particularly Funaki and McLoad were guilty of this in the backline. That's a coaching issue, too!
My fellow Magpies supporters on the Fern will recognise what is happening from our dark years under Philpott. It was depressing, and visibly sapping the confidence out of players, who looked scared to take the field, particularly in 2017 (Philpott's last year). Fortunately, they stuck around and one season under a new, good coach worked a treat. I have no doubt that several of the players that didn't perform during this NZU20s campaign will end up playing NPC and SR. They'll bounce back and under the coaching of proper coaches and in well-oiled teams, they will improve their skills and the talent that they have will be further developed. And some players, who were picked without clearly having the talent, will either not play (much) Mitre 10 Cup and will hopefully moving on to a career outside rugby. They won't make it.
To finish with a response to @Steven-Harris comments and list, I don't know whether this year's group will reach the 45% strike rate.
Please, correct me if I made mistakes in this list. Of the current group I have bolded the names of players who have played SR or have SR contracts and italicized the names of players that have played Mitre 10 Cup:
Kaylum Boshier (Taranaki) – Vice-Captain (played for Taranaki in a "Heartland" Ranfurly Shield challenge, but IIRC no M10 Cup)
George Dyer (Waikato)
Samipeni Finau (Waikato)
Devan Flanders (Hawke's Bay)
Cullen Grace (Canterbury)
Kohan Herbert (Bay of Plenty)
Kianu Kereru Symes (Hawke's Bay) - Captain
Shilo Klein (Canterbury)
Jeriah Mua (Bay of Plenty)
Fletcher Newell (Canterbury)
Ollie Norris (Waikato)
Simon Parker (Waikato)
Taine Plumtree (Wellington)
Kaliopasi Uluilakepa (Wellington)
Tupou Vaa’i (Taranaki)
Tamaiti Williams (Canterbury)Fergus Burke (Canterbury)
Leroy Carter (Bay of Plenty)
Leicester Faingaanuku ( Ta$man/Crusaders)
Cole Forbes (Bay of Plenty)
Taufa Funaki (Auckland)
Scott Gregory (Northland/All Blacks Sevens)
Lalomilo Lalomilo (Bay of Plenty)
Dallas McLeod (Canterbury) – Vice-Captain
Billy Proctor (Wellington/Hurricanes)
Rivez Reihana (Waikato)
Etene Nanai-Seturo (Counties Manukau/Chiefs)
Quinn Tupaea (Waikato) - has a development contract at the ChiefsOf this list, I can see some players progressing to SR level (partially based on what I've seen during M10 Cup):
Kereru-Symes
Plumtree
Williams
Gregory
Tupaea
and maybe LalomiloIf this assessment is correct, that would be a strike rate of 36%.
A few more will make it to Mitre 10 Cup level, but clearly, not enough.
Now, just imagine if they had selected Trask, McClutchie and Toala instead of Burke, McLeod and Forbes. All three have played Mitre 10 Cup, one has played SR and the two others might play SR in future. That would have lifted the strike rate to ...46%. And their inclusion would likely have lifted the team to a better performance, too.
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@Stockcar86 said in 2019 under 20's:
I'm not sure of the structure or rules - is it possible we could be demoted and not have automatic entry to the next competition if we finish badly enough?
Every year, the lowest ranked team gets demoted to the WR U20 Trophy tournament, and the winner of the WR U20 Trophy tournament gets promoted to the WR U20 Championship. So this year, either Fiji or Scotland will get demoted. The WR U20 Trophy tournament takes place from 9 to 21 July 2019. Not sure whether the demoted team can already participate in that tournament or whether they have to wait until next year.
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@Stargazer what’s strikes me is some of the over the top headlines by a lot of sectors of our sports media, if they had done their home work ,the loss to Australia in the Oceania was slight pointer to where this team was heading not mention a few key unavailabilities along with an average pack..
And that without even mentioning the quality of the coach..
Poor journalism,all they look for is the sensational headline without looking deeper. -
@Stargazer said in 2019 under 20's:
Lalomilo Lalomilo
He has played Mitre 10 Cup for BOP I believe.
This might be too simplistic but to me it looks like this year's crop the issue seems to be a lack of talent in the forwards - with much of the talent (and missing talent not picked) coming in the backs?
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@KiwiMurph Yes and no. I think, with better coaching, also some of the forwards could have played much better. I'm particularly thinking of Boshier, Grace, Mua and maybe some of the props. Maybe they do have the talent.
I can also think of a one-cap Magpies prop (Tavita-Metcalfe) who wasn't picked. I don't know whether he'd fared better, but it will be interesting to see how he goes in NPC this year. Maybe also some other forwards missed out on selection, who should have been picked ahead of players that are in the squad.
But yeah, definitely less talent in the forwards than in the backs.
Edit: yes, you're right about Lalomilo.
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@Rapido No. Full time score: New Zealand 7 - 8 Wales
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From that match report, it also appears that Reihana came on for Lalomilo, when the latter got injured. So Reihana was fit and healthy, but they didn't play him at 10.
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@Stargazer said in 2019 under 20's:
@Rapido No. Full time score: New Zealand 7 - 8 Wales
World Rugby
The official site of World Rugby the governing body of Rugby Union with news, tournaments, fixtures, results, world rugby rankings, statistics, video, the Laws of the game, governance and contacts.
Very similar score to when we lost to Wales U20 in the tournament held in South Africa. (and sounds like similar wet conditions)
It's good for these young guys to get a lesson if they play innapropriate rugby to the conditions, as NZ rugby is so one dimensional these days they won't face a smart wet weather team in any domestics. Although sounds like this bunch can't hold to any weather excuses anyway as they've lost 3 matches in a year.
BTW, Do you need a paid Spark subscription to watch these? I downloaded the app (after I bought the RWC package) but was surprised to find I couldn't watch this tournament.
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@Rapido said in 2019 under 20's:
@Stargazer said in 2019 under 20's:
@Rapido No. Full time score: New Zealand 7 - 8 Wales
World Rugby
The official site of World Rugby the governing body of Rugby Union with news, tournaments, fixtures, results, world rugby rankings, statistics, video, the Laws of the game, governance and contacts.
BTW, Do you need a paid Spark subscription to watch these? I downloaded the app (after I bought the RWC package) but was surprised to find I couldn't watch this tournament.
Yes, you need a paid subscription to watch, but you can sign up for the 7-day free trial first. If you stop the subscription ($19.99/month) from kicking in after the free trial, you have just enough time to watch the final game against Ireland (on Sunday, 6.30am) and check the quality of the stream. You'll probably be able to watch the other games on demand, too.
https://www.sparksport.co.nz/signup/1
https://help.sparksport.co.nz/getting-started/about-free-trial/how-does-the-free-trial-work
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@Stockcar86 Interesting to note that teams associated with Mr. Philpott have the unfortunate habit of getting relegated.
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@NTA I hope Australia can go all the way! Always support our neighbours or other SH nations, if we're not in it ourselves.
Australia's squad has - as far as I know - players from the 2018 Australian Schools and U18 touring squad to Ireland and Scotland? Or was that only in the initial squad from early in the year? I wonder how much that extra experience of touring and more test games at that level have contributed to the success of this team.
I don't think the Junior Wallabies are stacked with Super Rugby players, are they? Unlike the French, who have many more professional players in their team, who have - of course - already played the U20 Six Nations earlier this year.
What I do know is that the Junior Wallabies have several NRC players, too (don't know how many).
The selection of the team has probably been a lot smarter than the NZ U20s. Having some big frontrowers and tall locks (including Nick Frost fresh out of the Crusaders academy) helps a lot of course. Will be watching the final with interest!
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@98blueandgold said in 2019 under 20's:
Will be interesting what comes out of this, if we want to compete we need to probably play more games like Sth A who do tours to NH. Can’t see us centralising system.
This year is the first time South Africa have had an extended U20 program though. They, along with Argentina, are the most geographically isolated major rugby nation so usually turn up under-cooked. This year they hosted a quad tournament with Argentina and Georgia U20s plus some sort of Namibian senior team, and then went to UK pre-tournament and played some friendlies.
I don't now how SAF have gone, from what I have read out of SAF they're not a particularly promising crop of U20s this year that they are particularly hopeful for anyway.
Anyway. I am advocating absolutely no changes to the NZ U20 fixtures structure. 3 games in an Oceania tournament is plenty of prep.
This tournament happens every year. It's not a once every 2 years or every 4 years thing The U20s play 3 Oceania games and 5 world champs games every year (until Philpott gets us relegated to the World Trophy which is only 4 games each ....)
8 U20 tests per year is plenty. In fact it's heaps. The 6N teams playing 10 U20s per year is just overkill. Better that our players also get some time to rub shoulders with those grizzly 22 year old veterans running around in club rugby (while there's still some 22 year old rugby players actually left in this country).
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@Rapido said in 2019 under 20's:
@98blueandgold said in 2019 under 20's:
Will be interesting what comes out of this, if we want to compete we need to probably play more games like Sth A who do tours to NH. Can’t see us centralising system.
This year is the first time South Africa have had an extended U20 program though. They, along with Argentina, are the most geographically isolated major rugby nation so usually turn up under-cooked. This year they hosted a quad tournament with Argentina and Georgia U20s plus some sort of Namibian senior team, and then went to UK pre-tournament and played some friendlies.
I don't now how SAF have gone, from what I have read out of SAF they're not a particularly promising crop of U20s this year that they are particularly hopeful for anyway.
Anyway. I am advocating absolutely no changes to the NZ U20 fixtures structure. 3 games in an Oceania tournament is plenty of prep.
This tournament happens every year. It's not a once every 2 years or every 4 years thing The U20s play 3 Oceania games and 5 world champs games every year (until Philpott gets us relegated to the World Trophy which is only 4 games each ....)
8 U20 tests per year is plenty. In fact it's heaps. The 6N teams playing 10 U20s per year is just overkill. Better that our players also get some time to rub shoulders with those grizzly 22 year old veterans running around in club rugby (while there's still some 22 year old rugby players actually left in this country).
I disagree with the Oceania Championship being a sufficient preparation. The only good team we're playing in that tournament is Australia. The other opponents, who seem to be different every year, are just not strong enough. Those 2 games are more opposed training runs than test matches. So bascially, NZU20s play one serious test match in preparation of the JWC.
S Africa played Georgia and Argentina (serious opposition; the Namibia XV game was opposed training game), and England and Wales. The travelling adds an extra dimension. Four test matches against good opposition.
South Africa has done well again this year. They'll be playing for bronze again.
Similarly, Argentina has also benefitted from their SA tour (IIRC they also played games against South American opponents, but not sure). Argentina is South Africa's opponent in the bronze final. Last year, they finished 6th (although, obviously home advantage may have helped a bit, too).I'd be happy if they would turn the Oceania Championship into an extended U20 Rugby Championship tournament, with NZ playing Australia, S Africa, Argentina and Fiji (and/or whichever other team from the South Pacific that has qualified for the WR U20 Championship and/or Trophy). At a different venue every year, alternating between S Africa, Argentina, Australia and New Zealand.
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So I’d suggest we are underdogs vs Ireland.
Which is not far off suggesting Trump has decided to a make the US a socialist state.
Some things you just don’t expect to read in your lifetime.
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@Stargazer said in 2019 under 20's:
@Rapido said in 2019 under 20's:
@98blueandgold said in 2019 under 20's:
Will be interesting what comes out of this, if we want to compete we need to probably play more games like Sth A who do tours to NH. Can’t see us centralising system.
This year is the first time South Africa have had an extended U20 program though. They, along with Argentina, are the most geographically isolated major rugby nation so usually turn up under-cooked. This year they hosted a quad tournament with Argentina and Georgia U20s plus some sort of Namibian senior team, and then went to UK pre-tournament and played some friendlies.
I don't now how SAF have gone, from what I have read out of SAF they're not a particularly promising crop of U20s this year that they are particularly hopeful for anyway.
Anyway. I am advocating absolutely no changes to the NZ U20 fixtures structure. 3 games in an Oceania tournament is plenty of prep.
This tournament happens every year. It's not a once every 2 years or every 4 years thing The U20s play 3 Oceania games and 5 world champs games every year (until Philpott gets us relegated to the World Trophy which is only 4 games each ....)
8 U20 tests per year is plenty. In fact it's heaps. The 6N teams playing 10 U20s per year is just overkill. Better that our players also get some time to rub shoulders with those grizzly 22 year old veterans running around in club rugby (while there's still some 22 year old rugby players actually left in this country).
I disagree with the Oceania Championship being a sufficient preparation. The only good team we're playing in that tournament is Australia. The other opponents, who seem to be different every year, are just not strong enough. Those 2 games are more opposed training runs than test matches. So bascially, NZU20s play one serious test match in preparation of the JWC.
S Africa played Georgia and Argentina (serious opposition; the Namibia XV game was opposed training game), and England and Wales. The travelling adds an extra dimension. Four test matches against good opposition.
South Africa has done well again this year. They'll be playing for bronze again.
Similarly, Argentina has also benefitted from their SA tour (IIRC they also played games against South American opponents, but not sure). Argentina is South Africa's opponent in the bronze final. Last year, they finished 6th (although, obviously home advantage may have helped a bit, too).I'd be happy if they would turn the Oceania Championship into an extended U20 Rugby Championship tournament, with NZ playing Australia, S Africa, Argentina and Fiji (and/or whichever other team from the South Pacific that has qualified for the WR U20 Championship and/or Trophy). At a different venue every year, alternating between S Africa, Argentina, Australia and New Zealand.
I just think we're losing perspective of what a JWC is all about. I don't want that much (monetary) resources allocated to prepping for an annual JWC.
3 games prep (1 hard match and 2 cake walks) . Then the pool stages of the actual JWC itself. If its a good year we'll win or come close to winning the JWC on that. If it's not we'll get taught some lessons. Even if that lesson is for those selecting the coach.
The problem, from my POV, is that in the year between finishing schools (and the schoolboy scrum laws etc ), there isn't enough good forwards coaching going on for the U19s so that when they reach U20s a Cron is having to be pulled into the camps to teach a crash course for the the forwards to try to learn how to forward.
Are there too many second-year 7ths (forwards) hanging around schoolboy rugby as 19 year olds .... ? Sort of a genuine question.
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@KiwiMurph They're doing fine, yes. But maybe they would have been much better with a few better matches during their preparation? Who knows? I just see a difference in preparation between NH and SH nations. We can't change the fact that a lot of those NH players are already playing professionally (and only a few of ours), but we can change the difference in preparation.
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I'm not really suggesting that the Oceania comp is sufficient preparation, but it's almost good enough. The better value IMO is getting everyone, not just an annointed 28 at U20 level, better prepared at domestic U19 level.
Because our young forwards are always shit.
At the moment we accept that this is low hanging fruit that can be caught up as the players move through the 20 to 22 aged bracket.
But, it may be time to re-assess. Starting to see some All Black packs get dominated on occasions the last 2 or 3 years.
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@Rapido said in 2019 under 20's:
I'm not really suggesting that the Oceania comp is sufficient preparation, but it's almost good enough. The better value IMO is getting everyone, not just an annointed 28 at U20 level, better prepared at domestic U19 level.
Because our young forwards are always shit.
At the moment we accept that this is low hanging fruit that can be caught up as the players move through the 20 to 22 aged bracket.
But, it may be time to re-assess. Starting to see some All Black packs get dominated o occasions the last 2 or 3 years.
Agree that our U19 youngsters, particularly forwards, aren't that good. I wonder whether that has to do with schools' preference for the big, fast-maturing (physically) boys, instead of the more skilled ones that bulk up later?
Also good to note that in the NH, there is an U18 Six Nations tournament. This year, it was played for the second time.
I also mentioned in an earlier post about Australia that their Australian and U18 Schools team toured the NH, late 2018.
The South African Schools team plays countries like England, Wales, France and Italy.
So even at those younger levels, they already play more test matches.
