CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh
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@dogmeat said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
Yeah which is why I tried to give it some context by only including their spells bowling 1 or 2.
The sample is pretty similar - the results are not.
So for me the choice is between Henry bowling at the start of the innings and picking up a couple of cheap wickets while keeping the run rate under control versus Southee who is much more hit and miss. Great to have in the right conditions and will give his all but I don't recall him bowling us out of a hole that often recently.
He is a death bowling option which Henry isn't but he seems to be worse bowling at the top of the innings and I don't think he's that great at the end either.
All I'm saying is Henry is doing the job he has been for at the moment and doing it well so Southee shouldn't just walk back into the side 0- as he would have done four years ago. He remains an option but only that.
Boults the only bowling certainty
Fair enough. I did add a post above ytours which acknowledged a lot of what you said. And you are not wrong in your analysis, it comes down to what you value, and I think if the pitches flatten but you need a bowler with a bit more than what what Henry offers at the top. Southees variations are miles ahead of Henrys.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback Flat and / or slow pitches and I think we are pretty fucked whoever supports Boult unless we have a shed load of runs to defend
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback The warm up game against the WI showed Henry at his worst IIRC. He was chucking pies and they tonked us all over the park. As you say he is a good opening bowler in favourable conditions, but can't bowl on flat tracks with no assistance or at the death
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@dogmeat said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback Flat and / or slow pitches and I think we are pretty fucked whoever supports Boult unless we have a shed load of runs to defend
Ahh but it is degrees of fucked-ness. Southee with his variations and willingness is miles ahead of Henry in that situation.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@MN5 said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@dogmeat said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
You raise some valid points
According to Statsguru since the last World Cup Southee and Henry have the following stats opening the bowling in ODI's
Southee
Mat 39
Inns 39
Overs 334.3
Mdns 20
Runs 1912
Wkts 45
BBI 6/65
Ave 42.48
Econ 5.71
SR 44.6
4 7
5 2Henry
Mat 35
Overs 317.0
Mdns 18
Runs 1714
Wkts 70
BBI 5/30
Ave 24.48
Econ 5.40
SR 27.1
4 6
5 2I haven't the time to go bone deep into who the opposition were but giving it as much context as I ca easily both guys have bowled a similar number of overs. Henry has taken a lot more wickets with a slightly better economy rate and a much better strike rate.
Given cricket is a game of statistics I certainly think there is an argument to use Henry as a strike bowler at the start of an innings, even though I concede I wouldn't want to see him bowling at the death.
Massive difference. Southees stats are horrific for someone who is basically living off reputation.
Also his Economy rate is higher.
Henry is averaging two wickets a match. I’ll take that thanks, that outweighs any shortcomings, real or imagined.
As i said. Context matters. Southee often bowls at tough times. Henry never does. Have you ever seen Henry bowl us out of a hole? Or even be asked to?
Well no, but to quote Eddie Murphy...."What has Southee done for us lately ?"
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@canefan said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
As you mentioned previous BSG (I think?) Wagner in the squad would be a good point of difference, in the way the Mitch McClenaghan was able to make something happen with pure aggression
Yeah I love Wag, no idea why he hasn't played any ODIs. His List A stats are very good.
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@MN5 said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@canefan said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
As you mentioned previous BSG (I think?) Wagner in the squad would be a good point of difference, in the way the Mitch McClenaghan was able to make something happen with pure aggression
Yeah I love Wag, no idea why he hasn't played any ODIs. His List A stats are very good.
And his batting isn't that much worse than Henry or Southee
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@MN5 said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@MN5 said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@dogmeat said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
You raise some valid points
According to Statsguru since the last World Cup Southee and Henry have the following stats opening the bowling in ODI's
Southee
Mat 39
Inns 39
Overs 334.3
Mdns 20
Runs 1912
Wkts 45
BBI 6/65
Ave 42.48
Econ 5.71
SR 44.6
4 7
5 2Henry
Mat 35
Overs 317.0
Mdns 18
Runs 1714
Wkts 70
BBI 5/30
Ave 24.48
Econ 5.40
SR 27.1
4 6
5 2I haven't the time to go bone deep into who the opposition were but giving it as much context as I ca easily both guys have bowled a similar number of overs. Henry has taken a lot more wickets with a slightly better economy rate and a much better strike rate.
Given cricket is a game of statistics I certainly think there is an argument to use Henry as a strike bowler at the start of an innings, even though I concede I wouldn't want to see him bowling at the death.
Massive difference. Southees stats are horrific for someone who is basically living off reputation.
Also his Economy rate is higher.
Henry is averaging two wickets a match. I’ll take that thanks, that outweighs any shortcomings, real or imagined.
As i said. Context matters. Southee often bowls at tough times. Henry never does. Have you ever seen Henry bowl us out of a hole? Or even be asked to?
Well no, but to quote Eddie Murphy...."What has Southee done for us lately ?"
At the death and in hard spots? A lot more than henry.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@MN5 said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@MN5 said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@dogmeat said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
You raise some valid points
According to Statsguru since the last World Cup Southee and Henry have the following stats opening the bowling in ODI's
Southee
Mat 39
Inns 39
Overs 334.3
Mdns 20
Runs 1912
Wkts 45
BBI 6/65
Ave 42.48
Econ 5.71
SR 44.6
4 7
5 2Henry
Mat 35
Overs 317.0
Mdns 18
Runs 1714
Wkts 70
BBI 5/30
Ave 24.48
Econ 5.40
SR 27.1
4 6
5 2I haven't the time to go bone deep into who the opposition were but giving it as much context as I ca easily both guys have bowled a similar number of overs. Henry has taken a lot more wickets with a slightly better economy rate and a much better strike rate.
Given cricket is a game of statistics I certainly think there is an argument to use Henry as a strike bowler at the start of an innings, even though I concede I wouldn't want to see him bowling at the death.
Massive difference. Southees stats are horrific for someone who is basically living off reputation.
Also his Economy rate is higher.
Henry is averaging two wickets a match. I’ll take that thanks, that outweighs any shortcomings, real or imagined.
As i said. Context matters. Southee often bowls at tough times. Henry never does. Have you ever seen Henry bowl us out of a hole? Or even be asked to?
Well no, but to quote Eddie Murphy...."What has Southee done for us lately ?"
At the death and in hard spots? A lot more than henry.
Can you give us some specific examples please ? cos from where I'm sitting Henrys stats speak for themselves in comparison, namely getting wickets at nearly twenty runs cheaper each time.
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@MN5 said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@MN5 said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@MN5 said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@dogmeat said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
You raise some valid points
According to Statsguru since the last World Cup Southee and Henry have the following stats opening the bowling in ODI's
Southee
Mat 39
Inns 39
Overs 334.3
Mdns 20
Runs 1912
Wkts 45
BBI 6/65
Ave 42.48
Econ 5.71
SR 44.6
4 7
5 2Henry
Mat 35
Overs 317.0
Mdns 18
Runs 1714
Wkts 70
BBI 5/30
Ave 24.48
Econ 5.40
SR 27.1
4 6
5 2I haven't the time to go bone deep into who the opposition were but giving it as much context as I ca easily both guys have bowled a similar number of overs. Henry has taken a lot more wickets with a slightly better economy rate and a much better strike rate.
Given cricket is a game of statistics I certainly think there is an argument to use Henry as a strike bowler at the start of an innings, even though I concede I wouldn't want to see him bowling at the death.
Massive difference. Southees stats are horrific for someone who is basically living off reputation.
Also his Economy rate is higher.
Henry is averaging two wickets a match. I’ll take that thanks, that outweighs any shortcomings, real or imagined.
As i said. Context matters. Southee often bowls at tough times. Henry never does. Have you ever seen Henry bowl us out of a hole? Or even be asked to?
Well no, but to quote Eddie Murphy...."What has Southee done for us lately ?"
At the death and in hard spots? A lot more than henry.
Can you give us some specific examples please ? cos from where I'm sitting Henrys stats speak for themselves in comparison, namely getting wickets at nearly twenty runs cheaper each time.
I have already addressed the stats argument.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@MN5 said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@MN5 said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@MN5 said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@dogmeat said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
You raise some valid points
According to Statsguru since the last World Cup Southee and Henry have the following stats opening the bowling in ODI's
Southee
Mat 39
Inns 39
Overs 334.3
Mdns 20
Runs 1912
Wkts 45
BBI 6/65
Ave 42.48
Econ 5.71
SR 44.6
4 7
5 2Henry
Mat 35
Overs 317.0
Mdns 18
Runs 1714
Wkts 70
BBI 5/30
Ave 24.48
Econ 5.40
SR 27.1
4 6
5 2I haven't the time to go bone deep into who the opposition were but giving it as much context as I ca easily both guys have bowled a similar number of overs. Henry has taken a lot more wickets with a slightly better economy rate and a much better strike rate.
Given cricket is a game of statistics I certainly think there is an argument to use Henry as a strike bowler at the start of an innings, even though I concede I wouldn't want to see him bowling at the death.
Massive difference. Southees stats are horrific for someone who is basically living off reputation.
Also his Economy rate is higher.
Henry is averaging two wickets a match. I’ll take that thanks, that outweighs any shortcomings, real or imagined.
As i said. Context matters. Southee often bowls at tough times. Henry never does. Have you ever seen Henry bowl us out of a hole? Or even be asked to?
Well no, but to quote Eddie Murphy...."What has Southee done for us lately ?"
At the death and in hard spots? A lot more than henry.
Can you give us some specific examples please ? cos from where I'm sitting Henrys stats speak for themselves in comparison, namely getting wickets at nearly twenty runs cheaper each time.
I have already addressed the stats argument.
That's not what I asked though. Just seems to me you're pumping a guy who's best years are behind him.
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@MN5 said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@MN5 said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@MN5 said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@MN5 said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@dogmeat said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
You raise some valid points
According to Statsguru since the last World Cup Southee and Henry have the following stats opening the bowling in ODI's
Southee
Mat 39
Inns 39
Overs 334.3
Mdns 20
Runs 1912
Wkts 45
BBI 6/65
Ave 42.48
Econ 5.71
SR 44.6
4 7
5 2Henry
Mat 35
Overs 317.0
Mdns 18
Runs 1714
Wkts 70
BBI 5/30
Ave 24.48
Econ 5.40
SR 27.1
4 6
5 2I haven't the time to go bone deep into who the opposition were but giving it as much context as I ca easily both guys have bowled a similar number of overs. Henry has taken a lot more wickets with a slightly better economy rate and a much better strike rate.
Given cricket is a game of statistics I certainly think there is an argument to use Henry as a strike bowler at the start of an innings, even though I concede I wouldn't want to see him bowling at the death.
Massive difference. Southees stats are horrific for someone who is basically living off reputation.
Also his Economy rate is higher.
Henry is averaging two wickets a match. I’ll take that thanks, that outweighs any shortcomings, real or imagined.
As i said. Context matters. Southee often bowls at tough times. Henry never does. Have you ever seen Henry bowl us out of a hole? Or even be asked to?
Well no, but to quote Eddie Murphy...."What has Southee done for us lately ?"
At the death and in hard spots? A lot more than henry.
Can you give us some specific examples please ? cos from where I'm sitting Henrys stats speak for themselves in comparison, namely getting wickets at nearly twenty runs cheaper each time.
I have already addressed the stats argument.
That's not what I asked though. Just seems to me you're pumping a guy who's best years are behind him.
Yes I am sure that is how it appears to you. Luckily you are not really my target of discussion.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@MN5 said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@MN5 said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@MN5 said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@MN5 said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@dogmeat said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
You raise some valid points
According to Statsguru since the last World Cup Southee and Henry have the following stats opening the bowling in ODI's
Southee
Mat 39
Inns 39
Overs 334.3
Mdns 20
Runs 1912
Wkts 45
BBI 6/65
Ave 42.48
Econ 5.71
SR 44.6
4 7
5 2Henry
Mat 35
Overs 317.0
Mdns 18
Runs 1714
Wkts 70
BBI 5/30
Ave 24.48
Econ 5.40
SR 27.1
4 6
5 2I haven't the time to go bone deep into who the opposition were but giving it as much context as I ca easily both guys have bowled a similar number of overs. Henry has taken a lot more wickets with a slightly better economy rate and a much better strike rate.
Given cricket is a game of statistics I certainly think there is an argument to use Henry as a strike bowler at the start of an innings, even though I concede I wouldn't want to see him bowling at the death.
Massive difference. Southees stats are horrific for someone who is basically living off reputation.
Also his Economy rate is higher.
Henry is averaging two wickets a match. I’ll take that thanks, that outweighs any shortcomings, real or imagined.
As i said. Context matters. Southee often bowls at tough times. Henry never does. Have you ever seen Henry bowl us out of a hole? Or even be asked to?
Well no, but to quote Eddie Murphy...."What has Southee done for us lately ?"
At the death and in hard spots? A lot more than henry.
Can you give us some specific examples please ? cos from where I'm sitting Henrys stats speak for themselves in comparison, namely getting wickets at nearly twenty runs cheaper each time.
I have already addressed the stats argument.
That's not what I asked though. Just seems to me you're pumping a guy who's best years are behind him.
Yes I am sure that is how it appears to you. Luckily you are not really my target of discussion.
Well you do get like that when people don't agree with you aye
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@MN5 said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@MN5 said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@MN5 said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@MN5 said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@MN5 said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@dogmeat said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
You raise some valid points
According to Statsguru since the last World Cup Southee and Henry have the following stats opening the bowling in ODI's
Southee
Mat 39
Inns 39
Overs 334.3
Mdns 20
Runs 1912
Wkts 45
BBI 6/65
Ave 42.48
Econ 5.71
SR 44.6
4 7
5 2Henry
Mat 35
Overs 317.0
Mdns 18
Runs 1714
Wkts 70
BBI 5/30
Ave 24.48
Econ 5.40
SR 27.1
4 6
5 2I haven't the time to go bone deep into who the opposition were but giving it as much context as I ca easily both guys have bowled a similar number of overs. Henry has taken a lot more wickets with a slightly better economy rate and a much better strike rate.
Given cricket is a game of statistics I certainly think there is an argument to use Henry as a strike bowler at the start of an innings, even though I concede I wouldn't want to see him bowling at the death.
Massive difference. Southees stats are horrific for someone who is basically living off reputation.
Also his Economy rate is higher.
Henry is averaging two wickets a match. I’ll take that thanks, that outweighs any shortcomings, real or imagined.
As i said. Context matters. Southee often bowls at tough times. Henry never does. Have you ever seen Henry bowl us out of a hole? Or even be asked to?
Well no, but to quote Eddie Murphy...."What has Southee done for us lately ?"
At the death and in hard spots? A lot more than henry.
Can you give us some specific examples please ? cos from where I'm sitting Henrys stats speak for themselves in comparison, namely getting wickets at nearly twenty runs cheaper each time.
I have already addressed the stats argument.
That's not what I asked though. Just seems to me you're pumping a guy who's best years are behind him.
Yes I am sure that is how it appears to you. Luckily you are not really my target of discussion.
Well you do get like that when people don't agree with you aye
Nope, @dogmeat didn't agree with me, it is mainly the facile nature of your points that doesnt interest me.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@MN5 said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@MN5 said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@MN5 said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@MN5 said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@MN5 said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@dogmeat said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
You raise some valid points
According to Statsguru since the last World Cup Southee and Henry have the following stats opening the bowling in ODI's
Southee
Mat 39
Inns 39
Overs 334.3
Mdns 20
Runs 1912
Wkts 45
BBI 6/65
Ave 42.48
Econ 5.71
SR 44.6
4 7
5 2Henry
Mat 35
Overs 317.0
Mdns 18
Runs 1714
Wkts 70
BBI 5/30
Ave 24.48
Econ 5.40
SR 27.1
4 6
5 2I haven't the time to go bone deep into who the opposition were but giving it as much context as I ca easily both guys have bowled a similar number of overs. Henry has taken a lot more wickets with a slightly better economy rate and a much better strike rate.
Given cricket is a game of statistics I certainly think there is an argument to use Henry as a strike bowler at the start of an innings, even though I concede I wouldn't want to see him bowling at the death.
Massive difference. Southees stats are horrific for someone who is basically living off reputation.
Also his Economy rate is higher.
Henry is averaging two wickets a match. I’ll take that thanks, that outweighs any shortcomings, real or imagined.
As i said. Context matters. Southee often bowls at tough times. Henry never does. Have you ever seen Henry bowl us out of a hole? Or even be asked to?
Well no, but to quote Eddie Murphy...."What has Southee done for us lately ?"
At the death and in hard spots? A lot more than henry.
Can you give us some specific examples please ? cos from where I'm sitting Henrys stats speak for themselves in comparison, namely getting wickets at nearly twenty runs cheaper each time.
I have already addressed the stats argument.
That's not what I asked though. Just seems to me you're pumping a guy who's best years are behind him.
Yes I am sure that is how it appears to you. Luckily you are not really my target of discussion.
Well you do get like that when people don't agree with you aye
Nope, @dogmeat didn't agree with me, it is mainly the facile nature of your points that doesnt interest me.
Using stats and results to illustrate a point ?
Well there goes any cricket related conversations on here then !
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback I agree with you on the context part. Henry's death bowling is a problem, and is the key reason he hasn't been a mainstay in the side despite his stats.
It's a case of Henry's opening spells vs Southee's later innings spells (with a focus on keeping the RPO down in the later stages).
At this point I prefer we go hard at the top and knock off their best players early - that's our best chance IMO. Because despite Southee's superior range of variations, I don't think it will be enough to stop Aus 2 down in the 40th over from posting an ungettable total.
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@No-Quarter said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback I agree with you on the context part. Henry's death bowling is a problem, and is the key reason he hasn't been a mainstay in the side despite his stats.
It's a case of Henry's opening spells vs Southee's later innings spells (with a focus on keeping the RPO down in the later stages).
At this point I prefer we go hard at the top and knock off their best players early - that's our best chance IMO. Because despite Southee's superior range of variations, I don't think it will be enough to stop Aus 2 down in the 40th over from posting an ungettable total.
I don't disagree Henry has his faults and this conversation probably wouldn't even be happening four years ago but promoting Southee over him for a few intangibles just doesn't seem the answer.
If Henry bowls out 10 on the trot and grabs a couple or three wickets as he has done then what is the problem ?
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If it really comes down to it, most of the time Southee is going to be of quite a bit more use to us than de Grandhomme.
It's sort of nice having Colin sitting low in the batting order and thinking "he can ice this" or "this run rate's not beyond Colin", but when push comes to shove and we really need him, he's probably about as likely to pull a Coulter Nile as a latter day Luke Ronchi.
So maybe we should just play Timmy AND Matt.
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@Chris-B said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
If it really comes down to it, most of the time Southee is going to be of quite a bit more use to us than de Grandhomme.
It's sort of nice having Colin sitting low in the batting order and thinking "he can ice this" or "this run rate's not beyond Colin", but when push comes to shove and we really need him, he's probably about as likely to pull a Coulter Nile as a latter day Luke Ronchi.
So maybe we should just play Timmy AND Matt.
( shudders )
