CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh
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@dogmeat said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@MN5 Southee I hope not. He just doesn't offer what Henry and Ferg do. He's the back up if they go tits up.
Nicholls I hope so. Munro has great hand/eye but is the epitome of flat track bully. Nicholls is not world class but he's more reliable, less exposed to brain farts and we need someone else the stroke makers can play around.
More likely to see Latham open and Blundell come in at 6 and take over the gloves.
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@dogmeat said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@MN5 Southee I hope not. He just doesn't offer what Henry and Ferg do. He's the back up if they go tits up.
Nicholls I hope so. Munro has great hand/eye but is the epitome of flat track bully. Nicholls is not world class but he's more reliable, less exposed to brain farts and we need someone else the stroke makers can play around.
Definite potential to be one of our best across the different formats though. His improvements have been remarkable.
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@No-Quarter said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@Hooroo said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
What happened with the non run out? The commentators kept mentioning it
The keeper tried to take the ball in front of the stumps and drag it back on (which is a fairly new technique for effecting run-outs), but knocked the bails off before he had the ball.
To make matters worse it wasn't even close so there was no need to take it in front of the stumps, and also the ball was going to hit the stumps anyway so he didn't need to catch it at all.
Bangladesh used to be called East Pakistan.
Just saying.
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@booboo said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@No-Quarter said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@Hooroo said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
What happened with the non run out? The commentators kept mentioning it
The keeper tried to take the ball in front of the stumps and drag it back on (which is a fairly new technique for effecting run-outs), but knocked the bails off before he had the ball.
To make matters worse it wasn't even close so there was no need to take it in front of the stumps, and also the ball was going to hit the stumps anyway so he didn't need to catch it at all.
Bangladesh used to be called East Pakistan.
Just saying.
sounds like the keeper should be called Brahad Shahaddin.
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@Sneakdefreak said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@dogmeat said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@MN5 Southee I hope not. He just doesn't offer what Henry and Ferg do. He's the back up if they go tits up.
Nicholls I hope so. Munro has great hand/eye but is the epitome of flat track bully. Nicholls is not world class but he's more reliable, less exposed to brain farts and we need someone else the stroke makers can play around.
More likely to see Latham open and Blundell come in at 6 and take over the gloves.
That's the option I'd prefer, because neither Nicholls nor Latham have any batting form to speak of, whereas Blundell has taken his opportunities vs Oz and Windies with open arms. I'm doubtful that we should play two guys in the top six with no runs under their belts.
Unfortunately, it's not looking likely.
But, definitely Nicholls over Munro vs Afghanistan. Colin has shown repeatedly against the top teams that he's not the answer and Nicholls needs a chance to find some form.
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@dogmeat said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@MN5 Southee I hope not. He just doesn't offer what Henry and Ferg do. He's the back up if they go tits up.
Nicholls I hope so. Munro has great hand/eye but is the epitome of flat track bully. Nicholls is not world class but he's more reliable, less exposed to brain farts and we need someone else the stroke makers can play around.
I think Henry is a flat track bully equivalent of a bowler. He has no chance of running through a decent batting line up. Southee has that ability and has proven it.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@dogmeat said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@MN5 Southee I hope not. He just doesn't offer what Henry and Ferg do. He's the back up if they go tits up.
Nicholls I hope so. Munro has great hand/eye but is the epitome of flat track bully. Nicholls is not world class but he's more reliable, less exposed to brain farts and we need someone else the stroke makers can play around.
I think Henry is a flat track bully equivalent of a bowler. He has no chance of running through a decent batting line up. Southee has that ability and has proven it.
Southee hasn't shown that ability in a long time now.
I think you'll also find your perception is not completely accurate. For example vs India, the premier batting side in the world, he has 11 wickets at 19, with a best bowling of 4/35. He has similar numbers against Pakistan and Sri Lanka, and has 12 wickets at 30 against Australia.
You don't take 85 wickets at 24 when you're nothing more than a flat track bully. Sure he has had some bad games, but if we're comparing him to Southee then he's had far fewer over the past 4 years. In fact if you take Southee's last 4 years he fits the mould of flat track bully far better - a 41 average including 75 vs Australia, 79 vs England, 56 vs South Africa but helped by averaging just 17 against Bangladesh.
Southee is a good experienced backup to have in the squad, but I'd be loathe to start him ahead of Henry on the back of those numbers.
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@No-Quarter said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@dogmeat said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@MN5 Southee I hope not. He just doesn't offer what Henry and Ferg do. He's the back up if they go tits up.
Nicholls I hope so. Munro has great hand/eye but is the epitome of flat track bully. Nicholls is not world class but he's more reliable, less exposed to brain farts and we need someone else the stroke makers can play around.
I think Henry is a flat track bully equivalent of a bowler. He has no chance of running through a decent batting line up. Southee has that ability and has proven it.
Southee hasn't shown that ability in a long time now.
I think you'll also find your perception is not completely accurate. For example vs India, the premier batting side in the world, he has 11 wickets at 19, with a best bowling of 4/35. He has similar numbers against Pakistan and Sri Lanka, and has 12 wickets at 30 against Australia.
You don't take 85 wickets at 24 when you're nothing more than a flat track bully. Sure he has had some bad games, but if we're comparing him to Southee then he's had far fewer over the past 4 years. In fact if you take Southee's last 4 years he fits the mould of flat track bully far better - a 41 average including 75 vs Australia, 79 vs England, 56 vs South Africa but helped by averaging just 17 against Bangladesh.
Southee is a good experienced backup to have in the squad, but I'd be loathe to start him ahead of Henry on the back of those numbers.
85 at 24.........either that's nothing but flat tracks or that's a great record. I'm kinda picking the latter.
I loved Southees 7 fer as much as the next guy but that was a long time ago now.
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@No-Quarter Yeah - as I've noted before, Henry is in the all-time top 10 for career strike rate in ODIs - though it might say something about the pitches we play on or the opposition we mainly play that Boult and Ferguson (and look at Corey Anderson!) are also high on that list.
Whatever else you might think about Henry (I particularly don't like that he's a poor death bowling option), he does seem to have a golden arm.
ODI matches | Bowling records | Best career strike rate | ESPNcricinfo
Find records of Best career strike rate in ODI matches only on ESPNcricinfo.
I'm not sure I particularly disagree with the Baron about the likelihood of Henry running through a top line-up. I just don't see Timmy doing any better unless the ball happens to be hooping around. If we expect that, get him in there!
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@Chris-B the only bowler we have that can run through a top batting lineup is Boult. The lack of swing for him thus far makes me think Southee is likely to be cannon fodder for the top teams. Of course Henry may be the same, but his numbers the past few years have been impressive; when he's in a good rhythm he's an extremely dangerous new ball bowler.
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@Chris-B @Baron-Silas-Greenback
My preference for Henry is based fundamentally on his record in England particularly England in the early part of the season.
Southee has done it and at his best will likely always be a better bowler than Henry but as has been said his best is too long ago.
Southee reminds me quite a bit of late career Botham - although obviously he's kept himself in much better nick. What I mean is both seemed unable to recognise that the glory days were pretty much gone and tried for the miracle ball too often instead of recognising the march of time and bowling within themselves - as they have/had the skill to do.
It's actually a great position for BC to be in. I can't remember a previous era where someone like Southee wouldn't have been rushed into the team niggly injury or not. I just think on balance Henry has to play himself out of the team - and if he does Southees a great back up option.
Although as Chris says if it looks like its swinging like the 60's chuck him the ball.
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I don't buy the argument that Southee is a better bowler than Henry in the shorter forms. Southee has had the majority of his best performances in the test arena, which is a completely different kettle of fish.
Henry's stats in the shorter form are significantly better than Southee's at every level.
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Stats are bullshit when it comes to bowlers in the short form. Henry never gets bought back in when the batsmen are set and we need a wicket... cause he sucks at that. He never bowls at the death when the bats are swinging. Context matters.
Henry gets the bulk of his overs at the best possible time to bowl.
You imagine Warner at Smith batting, Aus are 167/2 after 25 overs. You think Henry is ever going to bowl in that situation, and if he does, make any difference. Hell no.Get back to me when Henry actually performs when we are in the shit and need a difference maker. Get back to me when he is capable of bowling at the death with effect.
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You raise some valid points
According to Statsguru since the last World Cup Southee and Henry have the following stats opening the bowling in ODI's
Southee
Mat 39
Inns 39
Overs 334.3
Mdns 20
Runs 1912
Wkts 45
BBI 6/65
Ave 42.48
Econ 5.71
SR 44.6
4 7
5 2Henry
Mat 35
Overs 317.0
Mdns 18
Runs 1714
Wkts 70
BBI 5/30
Ave 24.48
Econ 5.40
SR 27.1
4 6
5 2I haven't the time to go bone deep into who the opposition were but giving it as much context as I ca easily both guys have bowled a similar number of overs. Henry has taken a lot more wickets with a slightly better economy rate and a much better strike rate.
Given cricket is a game of statistics I certainly think there is an argument to use Henry as a strike bowler at the start of an innings, even though I concede I wouldn't want to see him bowling at the death.
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@dogmeat said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
You raise some valid points
According to Statsguru since the last World Cup Southee and Henry have the following stats opening the bowling in ODI's
Southee
Mat 39
Inns 39
Overs 334.3
Mdns 20
Runs 1912
Wkts 45
BBI 6/65
Ave 42.48
Econ 5.71
SR 44.6
4 7
5 2Henry
Mat 35
Overs 317.0
Mdns 18
Runs 1714
Wkts 70
BBI 5/30
Ave 24.48
Econ 5.40
SR 27.1
4 6
5 2I haven't the time to go bone deep into who the opposition were but giving it as much context as I ca easily both guys have bowled a similar number of overs. Henry has taken a lot more wickets with a slightly better economy rate and a much better strike rate.
Given cricket is a game of statistics I certainly think there is an argument to use Henry as a strike bowler at the start of an innings, even though I concede I wouldn't want to see him bowling at the death.
Massive difference. Southees stats are horrific for someone who is basically living off reputation.
Also his Economy rate is higher.
Henry is averaging two wickets a match. I’ll take that thanks, that outweighs any shortcomings, real or imagined.
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@MN5 said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@dogmeat said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
You raise some valid points
According to Statsguru since the last World Cup Southee and Henry have the following stats opening the bowling in ODI's
Southee
Mat 39
Inns 39
Overs 334.3
Mdns 20
Runs 1912
Wkts 45
BBI 6/65
Ave 42.48
Econ 5.71
SR 44.6
4 7
5 2Henry
Mat 35
Overs 317.0
Mdns 18
Runs 1714
Wkts 70
BBI 5/30
Ave 24.48
Econ 5.40
SR 27.1
4 6
5 2I haven't the time to go bone deep into who the opposition were but giving it as much context as I ca easily both guys have bowled a similar number of overs. Henry has taken a lot more wickets with a slightly better economy rate and a much better strike rate.
Given cricket is a game of statistics I certainly think there is an argument to use Henry as a strike bowler at the start of an innings, even though I concede I wouldn't want to see him bowling at the death.
Massive difference. Southees stats are horrific for someone who is basically living off reputation.
Also his Economy rate is higher.
Henry is averaging two wickets a match. I’ll take that thanks, that outweighs any shortcomings, real or imagined.
As i said. Context matters. Southee often bowls at tough times. Henry never does. Have you ever seen Henry bowl us out of a hole? Or even be asked to?
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@MN5 said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@dogmeat said in CWC Game #2 Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
You raise some valid points
According to Statsguru since the last World Cup Southee and Henry have the following stats opening the bowling in ODI's
Southee
Mat 39
Inns 39
Overs 334.3
Mdns 20
Runs 1912
Wkts 45
BBI 6/65
Ave 42.48
Econ 5.71
SR 44.6
4 7
5 2Henry
Mat 35
Overs 317.0
Mdns 18
Runs 1714
Wkts 70
BBI 5/30
Ave 24.48
Econ 5.40
SR 27.1
4 6
5 2I haven't the time to go bone deep into who the opposition were but giving it as much context as I ca easily both guys have bowled a similar number of overs. Henry has taken a lot more wickets with a slightly better economy rate and a much better strike rate.
Given cricket is a game of statistics I certainly think there is an argument to use Henry as a strike bowler at the start of an innings, even though I concede I wouldn't want to see him bowling at the death.
Massive difference. Southees stats are horrific for someone who is basically living off reputation.
Also his Economy rate is higher.
Henry is averaging two wickets a match. I’ll take that thanks, that outweighs any shortcomings, real or imagined.
As i said. Context matters. Southee often bowls at tough times. Henry never does. Have you ever seen Henry bowl us out of a hole? Or even be asked to?
In defense of Henry over Southee, I think henry is more likely to keep the foot on their throat. If we have a tea,m that is battling I simply dont trust Southee to not bowl a few shite overs and let them get momentum, sometimes his thirst for a wicket is detrimental and he is to clever for his own good.
But overall, Henry is also able to bowl some pies, and he just cannot be trusted to perform in any meaningful way when the opposition is on top, and that matters.... alot.
