NZ All Time XI
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@synicbast yeah I’ve met him a couple of times through work since he’s retired and he seems like a decent guy that doesn’t mind having a laugh or chat.
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If I can just mention keepers re dismissals...
Keepers don't create dismissals. Bowlers do. Keepers just take catches ... mostly.
Stumpings are awesome, and are more a measure of how good a keeper you are than overall dismissals, most of which are catches.
But you're not going to get them unless you have spinners on spinners' decks.
My measure as to how well I kept was how tidy I was (ie no dropsies to routine deliveries), and no byes, absolutely no byes.
Having said all that Smithy was my hero growing up (along with SRH & MDC). One of my favourite memories was his ton v England at Eden Park to ensure we drew and won the series in 1984.
Especially being a keeper myself back in those days.
And a huge fan of BMac recently. His triple hundy and his various doubles.
But I've just got to go with Watling as my keeper. Super tidy and just a rock in that lower middle ordsr.
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@booboo said in NZ All Time Test XI:
My measure as to how well I kept was how tidy I was (ie no dropsies to routine deliveries), and no byes, absolutely no byes.
I'm not sure you can use byes as a measure of the ability of a keeper with the umpires interpretation of a bye. For example, a fast bowler bowls a short-pitched delivery that goes over the batsmen's head and is also too high for the keeper to catch. They are called byes when they should be called wides.
I agree with conceding byes to spinners but the scorecard doesn't make that distinction.
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@act-crusader said in NZ All Time Test XI:
@mn5 said in NZ All Time Test XI:
@kiwipie said in NZ All Time Test XI:
@synicbast said in NZ All Time Test XI:
Kane just broke the 900 point barrier on the ICC rankings...absofuckinglutely sensational.
Places him 27th on the list of batsmen ordered by their highest ever ranking. Top 5 is Bradman, Smith, Hutton, Ponting, Hobbs. Immediately after KW are Lara, Pietersen, Amla, Chanderpaul, Clarke, Tendulkar, Hammond, Flower, S Waugh, Dravid which is a pretty fine 9 to be above you have to admit. Now all we need is a double hundred from him this weekend and he can go above Barrington, Headley, Gavaskar, Compton, Root ....
Shit, some brilliant names there....Off the top of my head no Richards, Chappell, Kallis, Sobers, Border....in any case it's amazing seeing one of our boys on the list.
Three Aussies and two Poms in the top 5. You forget how good Ponting was at his peak but without being churlish I'd argue he is not a guaranteed pick for an all time Australian XI
Ponting makes my Aussie all-time XI every day of the week. Couldn’t stand the guy but a phenomenal batsman that had arrogance and will to win since he was hitting balls as a teenager in the CA academy.
I said I'd argue and to me he's not 100% locked in. When you consider Bradman is a certainty for 3 or 4 then he's competing with the likes of Greg Chappell, Steve Waugh, Border, Doug Walters, Smith.....some of those legends have to miss out.....
Guys as good as Clarke, Hussey, M Waugh, Langer, Taylor, Slats, Boon etc have absolutely no chance which is scary.
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@booboo Watling's batting record as a keeper is the reverse of Baz, who only really scored big runs after giving up the gloves, though back problems played a part there.
Myself a former keeper as well I'm pretty amazed by the way Watling digs in, as keeping is physically exhausting. To have the levels of concentration he shows is pretty amazing, must be super fit.
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@no-quarter said in NZ All Time Test XI:
@booboo Watling's batting record as a keeper is the reverse of Baz, who only really scored big runs after giving up the gloves, though back problems played a part there.
Myself a former keeper as well I'm pretty amazed by the way Watling digs in, as keeping is physically exhausting. To have the levels of concentration he shows is pretty amazing, must be super fit.
Do you reckon the age of the awesome batsman who happens to keep ( started with Alec Stewart and continued with Gilly, Flower and Sangakara ) has meant a decline in keeping quality?
I remember Ian Smith being brilliant but that might be rose tinted memories.
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@mariner4life said in NZ All Time Test XI:
there were super passionate arguments for Flem, Dempster, Wright, Congdon, Rig and my personal favourite Andrew Jones for that last spot.
Congdon was a true amateur, wasn't he?
Remember chatting to an old-timer at Lord's a few years ago (ex-England player) who opined that Congdon would be one of the true greats of his era if he'd gone professional
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@mn5 said in NZ All Time Test XI:
I remember Ian Smith being brilliant but that might be rose tinted memories.
He WAS bloody good. Still think the mid-80's team was the best we've had.
Fleming's '99 team was pretty special and the current Black Caps look seriously good - could well become the best ever.
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@mn5 said in NZ All Time Test XI:
@no-quarter said in NZ All Time Test XI:
@booboo Watling's batting record as a keeper is the reverse of Baz, who only really scored big runs after giving up the gloves, though back problems played a part there.
Myself a former keeper as well I'm pretty amazed by the way Watling digs in, as keeping is physically exhausting. To have the levels of concentration he shows is pretty amazing, must be super fit.
Do you reckon the age of the awesome batsman who happens to keep ( started with Alec Stewart and continued with Gilly, Flower and Sangakara ) has meant a decline in keeping quality?
I remember Ian Smith being brilliant but that might be rose tinted memories.
There is an expectation that keepers are all-rounders today, so those that are purely keepers are probably not making the pro teams anymore.
I don't have any clear memories of watching Smith, but I reckon Baz in his prime was one of the best keepers I've ever seen. Unbelievably athletic, some of the catches he took wouldn't even go down as chances for other less mobile keepers.
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Liked Ponting. Great player, hard bastard but never a cheat.
Bought his book as well. Found it as boring as hell, sadly.
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@mn5 Absolutely you could argue he wouldn't make it - Wisden chose Bradman Greg Chappell and Border from the following list of contenders:
Don Bradman, Allan Border, Steve Waugh, Greg Chappell, Ricky Ponting, Stan McCabe, David Boon, Charles Macartney,
Neil Harvey, Mark Waugh.Personally I think Pontings achievements post 2009 when this exercise was conducted puts him ahead of Border (who I wouldn't have had anyway - I'd have gone Harvey or McCabe)
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@victor-meldrew said in NZ All Time Test XI:
Liked Ponting. Great player, hard bastard but never a cheat.
Bought his book as well. Found it as boring as hell, sadly.
Ponting and his two predecessors were some of my absolute favourite cricketers. Real 'wish they were Black Caps' type guys.
Clarke was a cock though
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@mn5 said in NZ All Time Test XI:
@act-crusader said in NZ All Time Test XI:
@mn5 said in NZ All Time Test XI:
@kiwipie said in NZ All Time Test XI:
@synicbast said in NZ All Time Test XI:
Kane just broke the 900 point barrier on the ICC rankings...absofuckinglutely sensational.
Places him 27th on the list of batsmen ordered by their highest ever ranking. Top 5 is Bradman, Smith, Hutton, Ponting, Hobbs. Immediately after KW are Lara, Pietersen, Amla, Chanderpaul, Clarke, Tendulkar, Hammond, Flower, S Waugh, Dravid which is a pretty fine 9 to be above you have to admit. Now all we need is a double hundred from him this weekend and he can go above Barrington, Headley, Gavaskar, Compton, Root ....
Shit, some brilliant names there....Off the top of my head no Richards, Chappell, Kallis, Sobers, Border....in any case it's amazing seeing one of our boys on the list.
Three Aussies and two Poms in the top 5. You forget how good Ponting was at his peak but without being churlish I'd argue he is not a guaranteed pick for an all time Australian XI
Ponting makes my Aussie all-time XI every day of the week. Couldn’t stand the guy but a phenomenal batsman that had arrogance and will to win since he was hitting balls as a teenager in the CA academy.
I said I'd argue and to me he's not 100% locked in. When you consider Bradman is a certainty for 3 or 4 then he's competing with the likes of Greg Chappell, Steve Waugh, Border, Doug Walters, Smith.....some of those legends have to miss out.....
Doug Walters? Nowhere near sorry.
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@kiwipie said in NZ All Time Test XI:
@synicbast said in NZ All Time Test XI:
Kane just broke the 900 point barrier on the ICC rankings...absofuckinglutely sensational.
Places him 27th on the list of batsmen ordered by their highest ever ranking. Top 5 is Bradman, Smith, Hutton, Ponting, Hobbs. Immediately after KW are Lara, Pietersen, Amla, Chanderpaul, Clarke, Tendulkar, Hammond, Flower, S Waugh, Dravid which is a pretty fine 9 to be above you have to admit. Now all we need is a double hundred from him this weekend and he can go above Barrington, Headley, Gavaskar, Compton, Root ....
Most interesting thing about that list is that four NZers make it and joining Little Kane, Rossco, and Turner is not one M.D. Crowe, nor Andrew Jones, nor John F. Reid, nor Mark Richardson....but one Geoffrey Howarth!
Based, I guess on this purple patch...
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@act-crusader said in NZ All Time Test XI:
Crowe used a GM earlier on before the switch to DF.
He used GM at the end of his career. Post 1992 World Cup. We were at some coaching clinic in 1993 and he let a couple of us use his bat (a GM) for a drill. It was wasted in my hands, to be fair.
He was using DF in 1982, judging by this pic:
And here he is in 1993 with the GM:
Apologies if this has been clarified earlier in the thread...
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It might be common knowledge but usually these guys have 1 bat maker who makes all their bats and then the stickers change as sponsorship changes.
In the past it was John Newbery and Walsop from England but there are more guys in India now.
Perhaps I told the story of being with a young bloke in Perth who was doing some bucket bongs and the phone rang, conversation ensued and when he got off, ( no pun intended) he told me that was Mark Taylor commenting that the new handle he put in was great! Back to the bucket...
It's a bizarre world the batmakers
There's a master bat maker in the Hawkes bay who can whip you up the best bats money can buy, John Laver from Laver and Wood
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@victor-meldrew said in NZ All Time Test XI:
Liked Ponting. Great player, hard bastard but never a cheat.
Didn't watch the '07/08 Indian series then?
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@victor-meldrew said in NZ All Time Test XI:
Fleming's '99 team was pretty special and the current Black Caps look seriously good - could well become the best ever.
Really? I reckon it was more a case of that '99 England team of being real shit. Yes we did organize ourself enough to get out of our own way but honestly I feel the '94 team that preceded it and the '04 team that followed were superior to the '99 team that managed to win.
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@rotated Wasn't the 0-4 team hyped as the best to ever leave NZ?
XI v Eng @ Lords
1994
Young
Pocock
Rutherford
Crowe
Fleming
Thompson
Parore
Hart
Nash
Pringle1999
Horne
Bell
Fleming
Astle
Twose
McMillan
Vettori
Parore
Cairns
Nash
Allott2004
Richardson
Fleming
Astle
Styris
McMillan
Oram
Tuffey
Cairns
McCullum
Vettori
MartinSorry but that 2004 team is pretty crap Top order sucks as do the openers from 99 . 94 Crowe was broken Fleming green and Rudders not much chop. Not much between 99 and 04 for me.
04 batted much deeper than 94 but 99 had Nash at 10 FFS.
94 Bowling - bit of an exaggeration to call it an attack. 99 and 04 - well both had plenty of part time options to throw in if the main strike bowlers didn't work their magic. So its Nash/Allott v Martin/Tuffey. Prob give it to 04 mainly because of the injury issues with the 99 pair but I don't know that is a foregone conclusion that 04 would beat 99. I do think both would have the measure though of 94
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That's a reasonable opinion - certainly wouldn't be the farm on '94 beating '99. The '04 side went into day 4 in every test at about evens and screwed it all up on Sunday. That England side went onto win back the Ashes a summer later, so obviously a pretty respectable result. I think you are being overly harsh on the '04 top order - Fleming/Richardson was probably our best opening combo in two decades and for England conditions Rig is the best bat (at the time of the tour) in those three teams sans Crowe.
The 1994 side was way more snakebit in terms of injuries that '99 (Gavin Larsen needing to make his test debut because they couldn't find anyone else). But based on the Lords' test XV for each tour I would say the '94 side had the best bat and best quick; Crowe and healthy Nash which goes a long way in England.
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