NZ All Time XI
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@hooroo said in NZ All Time Test XI:
@donsteppa said in NZ All Time Test XI:
A big argument just to decide which of the two gets the new ball with Hadlee.
I'm increasingly thinking I wouldn't play a spinner in the all time NZ XI - unless we're playing in the subcontinent. I'd probably go with 6 batsmen, Watling/Smith for keeping, and Hadlee, Boult, Bond, plus Jack Cowie.
Cowie perhaps swapped out for Collinge if playing against Boycott, or swapped out for Nash if playing at Lords.
I reckon an all time NZ XI would go pretty well against their counterparts. None of this defeatist stuff. It reminds me of the line Lee Grant used to take when Oz rugby was doing well. Other nations might have the depth to pick eight amazing all time teams, but they can only play one of them at the top.
Our third XI might get smashed by their opposites, but NZ has produced a few all time greats.
Gee, I have McCullum Captain and Keeper. I truly think he is the reason we are what we are today (along with Hesson of course)
I agree too that we wouldn't need a spinner
I haven't put a lot of thought into the captaincy, but @SynicBast makes some good points about Crowe.
For keeping it's probably a close call between Watling, Smith, and McCullum, depending on the preferred balance, views on keeping/keeper-batsmen I guess.
Thinking of the Aaron Hopa thread and 'what might have been' - another candidate for keeper might have been Ken Wadsworth, but sadly we'll never fully know. Hadlee spoke very highly of him, which is a good sign.
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I don't think Smith has a claim anymore. Baz and Watling are both clearly ahead of him. Watling is number one on performances as a keeper only and Baz ahead on whole career summary. To be honest I think Smith and Parore are pretty evenly matched.
I don't think the difference in work between the stumps would be noticeable between the three of them.
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@donsteppa said in NZ All Time Test XI:
A big argument just to decide which of the two gets the new ball with Hadlee.
I'm increasingly thinking I wouldn't play a spinner in the all time NZ XI - unless we're playing in the subcontinent. I'd probably go with 6 batsmen, Watling/Smith for keeping, and Hadlee, Boult, Bond, plus Jack Cowie.
Cowie perhaps swapped out for Collinge if playing against Boycott, or swapped out for Nash if playing at Lords.
I reckon an all time NZ XI would go pretty well against their counterparts. None of this defeatist stuff. It reminds me of the line Lee Grant used to take when Oz rugby was doing well. Other nations might have the depth to pick eight amazing all time teams, but they can only play one of them at the top.
Our third XI might get smashed by their opposites, but NZ has produced a few all time greats.
Chiming in on the captain's argument. As Hooroo said, Macca had a major part in a highly successful period for NZC, and in part the era we are in now. He was far more pro-active than many of his predecessors (I thought Flem was a very good tactician) and despite BJ being the better keeper/batsman you could make an argument for Macca to be in as wicketkeeper/batsman/Captain
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@cyclops said in NZ All Time Test XI:
I don't think Smith has a claim anymore. Baz and Watling are both clearly ahead of him. Watling is number one on performances as a keeper only and Baz ahead on whole career summary. To be honest I think Smith and Parore are pretty evenly matched.
I don't think the difference in work between the stumps would be noticeable between the three of them.
Fair call, from memory Parore went a huge amount of runs/overs without conceding a bye at one stage too.
Watling has certainly risen up the ranks. Watling batting with the bowlers in my side might grind out a few more runs on the board. McCullum batting all guns blazing with Hadlee swatting away at the other end would also be great lower order entertainment!
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@donsteppa said in NZ All Time Test XI:
@cyclops said in NZ All Time Test XI:
I don't think Smith has a claim anymore. Baz and Watling are both clearly ahead of him. Watling is number one on performances as a keeper only and Baz ahead on whole career summary. To be honest I think Smith and Parore are pretty evenly matched.
I don't think the difference in work between the stumps would be noticeable between the three of them.
Fair call, from memory Parore went a huge amount of runs/overs without conceding a bye at one stage.
Watling has certainly risen up the ranks. Watling batting with the bowlers in my side might grind out a few more runs on the board. McCullum batting all guns blazing with Hadlee swatting away at the other end would also be great lower order entertainment!
Or he just whips up another 300.....
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@hooroo said in NZ All Time Test XI:
@donsteppa said in NZ All Time Test XI:
A big argument just to decide which of the two gets the new ball with Hadlee.
I'm increasingly thinking I wouldn't play a spinner in the all time NZ XI - unless we're playing in the subcontinent. I'd probably go with 6 batsmen, Watling/Smith for keeping, and Hadlee, Boult, Bond, plus Jack Cowie.
Cowie perhaps swapped out for Collinge if playing against Boycott, or swapped out for Nash if playing at Lords.
I reckon an all time NZ XI would go pretty well against their counterparts. None of this defeatist stuff. It reminds me of the line Lee Grant used to take when Oz rugby was doing well. Other nations might have the depth to pick eight amazing all time teams, but they can only play one of them at the top.
Our third XI might get smashed by their opposites, but NZ has produced a few all time greats.
Gee, I have McCullum Captain and Keeper. I truly think he is the reason we are what we are today (along with Hesson of course)
I agree too that we wouldn't need a spinner
We have always picked a spinner because picking a spinner is the thing to do.
Vettori was always one of my favourite players, gave everything, improved heaps with the bat, excellent captain and a good long career but for NZs best ever spinner he isn't a patch on some of the guys that other teams can produce.
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@mn5 said in NZ All Time Test XI:
@hooroo said in NZ All Time Test XI:
@donsteppa said in NZ All Time Test XI:
A big argument just to decide which of the two gets the new ball with Hadlee.
I'm increasingly thinking I wouldn't play a spinner in the all time NZ XI - unless we're playing in the subcontinent. I'd probably go with 6 batsmen, Watling/Smith for keeping, and Hadlee, Boult, Bond, plus Jack Cowie.
Cowie perhaps swapped out for Collinge if playing against Boycott, or swapped out for Nash if playing at Lords.
I reckon an all time NZ XI would go pretty well against their counterparts. None of this defeatist stuff. It reminds me of the line Lee Grant used to take when Oz rugby was doing well. Other nations might have the depth to pick eight amazing all time teams, but they can only play one of them at the top.
Our third XI might get smashed by their opposites, but NZ has produced a few all time greats.
Gee, I have McCullum Captain and Keeper. I truly think he is the reason we are what we are today (along with Hesson of course)
I agree too that we wouldn't need a spinner
We have always picked a spinner because picking a spinner is the thing to do.
Vettori was always one of my favourite players, gave everything, improved heaps with the bat, excellent captain and a good long career but for NZs best ever spinner he isn't a patch on some of the guys that other teams can produce.
You were concerned about Border and S Waugh earlier? Just need to pick John Bracewell
http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/16825/scorecard/63423/new-zealand-vs-australia-3rd-test-australia-tour-of-new-zealand-1985-86We got there just as Chats got Zoehrer. The name stood out for some reason.
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@donsteppa said in NZ All Time Test XI:
@mn5 said in NZ All Time Test XI:
@hooroo said in NZ All Time Test XI:
@donsteppa said in NZ All Time Test XI:
A big argument just to decide which of the two gets the new ball with Hadlee.
I'm increasingly thinking I wouldn't play a spinner in the all time NZ XI - unless we're playing in the subcontinent. I'd probably go with 6 batsmen, Watling/Smith for keeping, and Hadlee, Boult, Bond, plus Jack Cowie.
Cowie perhaps swapped out for Collinge if playing against Boycott, or swapped out for Nash if playing at Lords.
I reckon an all time NZ XI would go pretty well against their counterparts. None of this defeatist stuff. It reminds me of the line Lee Grant used to take when Oz rugby was doing well. Other nations might have the depth to pick eight amazing all time teams, but they can only play one of them at the top.
Our third XI might get smashed by their opposites, but NZ has produced a few all time greats.
Gee, I have McCullum Captain and Keeper. I truly think he is the reason we are what we are today (along with Hesson of course)
I agree too that we wouldn't need a spinner
We have always picked a spinner because picking a spinner is the thing to do.
Vettori was always one of my favourite players, gave everything, improved heaps with the bat, excellent captain and a good long career but for NZs best ever spinner he isn't a patch on some of the guys that other teams can produce.
You were concerned about Border and S Waugh earlier? Just need to pick John Bracewell
http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/16825/scorecard/63423/new-zealand-vs-australia-3rd-test-australia-tour-of-new-zealand-1985-86We got there just as Chats bowled Zoehrer. The name stood out for some reason.
That was a great series. I remember Bracewell owned Border the whole series, he was on fire
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Just a week ago on another forum, I statsgurued NZ's all time statistical 11 based on the following position/role criteria:
ā¢ Batting position by batting average (minimum 1000 runs): Openers, 3, 4, 5 , 6
ā¢ Wicket Keeper: by dismissals per innings (as designated keeper), (min 20 tests as keeper).
ā¢ 2 x Opening bowlers: by bowling average in innings as new ball bowlers (minimum 50 wickets).
ā¢ 1 x '3rd/4th seamer': by bowling average (minimum 50 wickets).
ā¢ Spinner: by bowling average in 3rd and 4th innings only (minimum 50 wickets).
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At the time I originally did the above, J F Reid was NZ's greatest statistical number 3. But Kane's 100 and 80 in the next test put him above him.
Watling has both the best batting average for a designated keeper and the highest Dismissal /Innings average.
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Great work @Rapido, I'm pretty happy with that team TBH. All well and good having three spearhead bowlers, but the value of Wagner in a real-life test match situation cannot really be overstated - he's an awesome 3rd seamer and his record backs that up.
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Also, I love that we've had this exact discussion and these exact same arguments nearly every year but nobody gives a fuck and everyone just piles in. This is what makes the Fern great. Awesome thread lads.
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Thought this was of note. McCullum is NZ's:
- best Number 5.
- 4th best opener
- second best keeper by D/I
- second best keeper-batsman by batting average (also second best number 7 by batting average)
And subjective. One of NZ's best captain's. Where exactly he ranks can be left to personal choice.
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@kiwipie said in NZ All Time Test XI:
In our imaginary team, are we picking at the peak of their powers or on any random day at any time in their career? Vettori was a totally different bowler before his back problems forced him to become a steadier,canny bowler. He had turn and dip and all of that good left arm spin stuff - just watch footage from the tour of England in 1999. His back issues were when he was fairly young so he is remembered for his later style (still an amazing test record of averaging over 40 with the bat at 8).
Boult is arguably not the bowler he was before his back problems - likewise the Bond of early 2000s was not the same as the Bond of later years.
Along the same lines for a player like Cairns there was a very brief period during 99/00 where he was a legitimate test strike bowler and reliable batsmen at the same time. If you get Cairns at his peak as a bolwer and batsmen in the same player he is a compelling selection - if you get an average Chris Cairns performance then Vettori is a better selection as the all rounder with four genuine quicks selected.
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@rapido said in NZ All Time Test XI:
Thought this was of note. McCullum is NZ's:
- best Number 5.
- 4th best opener
- second best keeper by D/I
- second best keeper-batsman by batting average (also second best number 7 by batting average)
And subjective. One of NZ's best captain's. Where exactly he ranks can be left to personal choice.
NZ cricket should have made him captain after Flem and passed over Vettori. I reckon we'd be in a better place now if we had.
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@rapido said in NZ All Time Test XI:
Thought this was of note. McCullum is NZ's:
- best Number 5.
- 4th best opener
- second best keeper by D/I
- second best keeper-batsman by batting average (also second best number 7 by batting average)
And subjective. One of NZ's best captain's. Where exactly he ranks can be left to personal choice.
The reason I call him our greatest captain is because he was 'despised' at the beginning for effectively ousting Taylor who most thought to be the 'correct' captain. Then went to SA and got pumped.
Then turned the team culture around and modelled a great team to watch. One with a spine and one getting great results.
Created a team to be truly proud of. He helped me rekindle my love for NZ cricket where for a long while I would look forward to The Ashes or Oz v SA etc rather than watch our clowns fumble around for a battlers win every once in a blue moon.
I love our Cricket team at the moment
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@cyclops said in NZ All Time Test XI:
NZ cricket should have made him captain after Flem and passed over Vettori. I reckon we'd be in a better place now if we had.
The Vettori period was a complete shit show.
The period of Taylor's captaincy under Wright IMO was strong and the away wins in Australia and Sri Lanka point to that. We played very sensible cricket and had an edge in the test game I hadn't seen for years. Regardless of the merit of McCullum or Taylor as captains NZ's fortunes were going to change around that time because we stumbled into a legitimate a World Class batsman and three legitimate test quality quicks.
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@no-quarter said in NZ All Time Test XI:
Great work @Rapido, I'm pretty happy with that team TBH. All well and good having three spearhead bowlers, but the value of Wagner in a real-life test match situation cannot really be overstated - he's an awesome 3rd seamer and his record backs that up.
Wagner has a strangely large difference in his record as a 3rd seamer or 4th seamer. I have pretty much dismissed this as a coincidence - and therefore combined the 3rd seamer role in my stats above into a '3rd/4th seamer'.
But its interesting.
3rd seamer is the toughest (most unrecognised) job in cricket.
Lowering the threshold to minimum 25 wickets. These are NZ's best 3rd/4th seamers:
Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com
