Blues 2019
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@frank said in Blues 2019 - (New Head Coach):
@crucial
Are you implying Umaga was not one of the MAIN reasons for the failure of the Blues?I'd really prefer not go over a discussion that has been had over and over again, but put it this way...
The performance of any coach at the Blues over the past 10 years has been made much more difficult by factors over which they have little control. To point the finger at the coach is simply the easy target to go around the houses again.I have never said that Tana does not have failings, nor that he is free of blame or responsibility. I simply keep pointing out that the structure, depth and systems in NZ rugby at Super level mean that one team is always going to get into a rut and find it bloody hard to get out of it. Just like the on field players, that makes it very difficult to not get sucked into 'chasing a win' and digging the hole deeper.
My take has always been that the 'sack the coach' view is too simplistic until the damage is bad enough that they have no way out. Maybe the balance can swing enough with NZRU interference to get the Blues out of last place, but it will be at the cost of another franchise sliding down and copping all the recruitment issues, fan sniping etc etc that goes with that.
NOTE: I have never hid the fact that I give Tana more leeway than the Blues fans because of what he achieved as a player, captain and coaching my provincial team to a level not seen in over 30 years.
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@kirwan said in Blues 2019 - (New Head Coach):
@rotated said in Blues 2019 - (New Head Coach):
Wasn't a massive fan of MacDonald taking over from Tana the last time but I'll give this a chance...
But full credit for the Blues making a move. Tana has been an improvement on SJK and Lam but still ultimately was seemed outmatched and outclassed by other NZ franchise coaches. Still ultimately I would like to see a non-ex-AB coach though after now four on the trot.
In what way was Tana an improvement? He has a worse record than both those coaches, selected terrible squads and presided over some of the worst results in our history. 60fucking points conceded on Eden Park FFS.
To begin with Umaga has a better record than SJK just on pure numbers but it's much of a muchness and both have records between 40-46% as does Lam. They would rank as the three of the four worst coaches of NZ franchises in the 2010s - the argument would just be about order.
Kirwan is the easier one, under his tenure the Blues felt like the Melbourne Rebels. Where to start? The guy fundamentally didn't understand Super Rugby. Genuinely thought Benji Marshall would be able to play 10 at Super level? Personally exiled three future All Blacks and one Welsh international? Mick Byrne as an assistant coach? Captain Ali Williams? This year has proved yet again it must be bloody difficult to have Graham Henry full time on your staff and not be good. SJK achieved this.
Lam is a more debatable one. There were good times with Lam and for a period between 2010-11 I was of the opinion that with a quality 10 the Blues were title contenders. Of course, the solutions Lam came up with were underwhelming and bewildering to say the least. But it is fair to say in 2011 they played at a level that hasn't been reached under Umaga.
Going against him, Lam went 4-12 in 2012 with the best Blues squad since 2003. Allowed things to become so bad at the end that Woodcock felt compelled to leave. Lashing out at anonymous Blues fans for racist comments on talkback that were never located wasn't a high point. His selections were pretty odd at times, he had very little patience for some and blind loyalty to chaps like Brett. Lachie Munro marking up against Ioane on the wing for a semi-final?
Perhaps as a whole Lam was better than Umaga, but the 2012 season immediately preceding Kirwan was the worst of the bunch and the ripple effects from his tenure are still being felt today.
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@rotated I'm not sure Kirwan ever really wanted Benji, that seemed like a back room decision, with his insurance sponsorship etc.
Anyway, it remains to be seen whether Rangi can turn this around. After all, he's just like Tana coming in, ex AB with a decent amount of coaching experience and some success. He may succeed or he may have similar results.
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@nepia For Rangi to make a major difference, he's probably going to need some luck with injuries. Will also be helpful if Nonu can still play.
Blues can put out a decent enough First XV, but really their only MAJOR acquisition in the offseason, is Big Karl. They've acquired a few others that are "solid enough" - but, Karl's though only one I'd say definitely makes the starting XV - maybe Nonu or Aumua plays centre.
That said, the guys who have come in - as a group - look better than the guys who've been cleaned out. Nonetheless it would have been a lot better IMO if they'd signed Abel, Olmsted, Manu and Rayasi. Missing all of them is a misfire!
2019 changes:
Out: Bryn Gatland (Highlanders), Jerome Kaino (Toulouse), Pauliasi Manu (Hino, Japan), George Moala (Clement Auvergne), Glenn Preston, Kara Pryor, Isaac Salmon, Mike Tamoaieta, Murphy Taramai, Dan Kirkpatrick, Matt Johnson.
In: (Karl Tu'inukuafe (Chiefs), Ezekiel Lindenmuth (Blues Development - Auckland), Jacob Pierce (Blues Development – North Harbour), Ma'a Nonu (Toulon), Marcel Renata (Hurricanes), Hoskins Sotutu (Blues Development - Auckland), Harry Plummer (Blues Development – Auckland), Tanielu Tele'a (Blues Development – Auckland), Tom Robinson (Northland), Jed Brown ( Ta$man), Levi Aumua ( Ta$man).
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@nepia said in Blues 2019 - (New Head Coach):
@rotated I'm not sure Kirwan ever really wanted Benji, that seemed like a back room decision, with his insurance sponsorship etc.
He started him round 5 so he wasn't exactly shy about blooding him.
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@rotated said in Blues 2019 - (New Head Coach):
@nepia said in Blues 2019 - (New Head Coach):
@rotated I'm not sure Kirwan ever really wanted Benji, that seemed like a back room decision, with his insurance sponsorship etc.
He started him round 5 so he wasn't exactly shy about blooding him.
That's different from actively recruiting him as a 10.
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Re Lam, there was steady improvement in the first three seasons and the 2011 side was the last genuinely good Blues side.
In 2012 there was a crazy amount of injuries across multiple positions. The second row was the worst hit. We were starting the 8th choice lock because 7 better locks were out. The forward pack imploded and it was a shocking year in terms of results
It's disingenuous to judge Lam solely on 2012. -
@chris-b said in Blues 2019 - (New Head Coach):
@nepia For Rangi to make a major difference, he's probably going to need some luck with injuries. Will also be helpful if Nonu can still play.
Blues can put out a decent enough First XV, but really their only MAJOR acquisition in the offseason, is Big Karl. They've acquired a few others that are "solid enough" - but, Karl's though only one I'd say definitely makes the starting XV - maybe Nonu or Aumua plays centre.
That said, the guys who have come in - as a group - look better than the guys who've been cleaned out. Nonetheless it would have been a lot better IMO if they'd signed Abel, Olmsted, Manu and Rayasi. Missing all of them is a misfire!
2019 changes:
Out: Bryn Gatland (Highlanders), Jerome Kaino (Toulouse), Pauliasi Manu (Hino, Japan), George Moala (Clement Auvergne), Glenn Preston, Kara Pryor, Isaac Salmon, Mike Tamoaieta, Murphy Taramai, Dan Kirkpatrick, Matt Johnson.
In: (Karl Tu'inukuafe (Chiefs), Ezekiel Lindenmuth (Blues Development - Auckland), Jacob Pierce (Blues Development – North Harbour), Ma'a Nonu (Toulon), Marcel Renata (Hurricanes), Hoskins Sotutu (Blues Development - Auckland), Harry Plummer (Blues Development – Auckland), Tanielu Tele'a (Blues Development – Auckland), Tom Robinson (Northland), Jed Brown ( Ta$man), Levi Aumua ( Ta$man).
It will be interesting to see who he picks as captain - Gibson, Tuipulotu, Parsons, Pulu are the ones with some experience. Not many other options
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@rotated said in Blues 2019 - (New Head Coach):
@kirwan said in Blues 2019 - (New Head Coach):
@rotated said in Blues 2019 - (New Head Coach):
Wasn't a massive fan of MacDonald taking over from Tana the last time but I'll give this a chance...
But full credit for the Blues making a move. Tana has been an improvement on SJK and Lam but still ultimately was seemed outmatched and outclassed by other NZ franchise coaches. Still ultimately I would like to see a non-ex-AB coach though after now four on the trot.
In what way was Tana an improvement? He has a worse record than both those coaches, selected terrible squads and presided over some of the worst results in our history. 60fucking points conceded on Eden Park FFS.
To begin with Umaga has a better record than SJK just on pure numbers but it's much of a muchness and both have records between 40-46% as does Lam. They would rank as the three of the four worst coaches of NZ franchises in the 2010s - the argument would just be about order.
Kirwan is the easier one, under his tenure the Blues felt like the Melbourne Rebels. Where to start? The guy fundamentally didn't understand Super Rugby. Genuinely thought Benji Marshall would be able to play 10 at Super level? Personally exiled three future All Blacks and one Welsh international? Mick Byrne as an assistant coach? Captain Ali Williams? This year has proved yet again it must be bloody difficult to have Graham Henry full time on your staff and not be good. SJK achieved this.
Lam is a more debatable one. There were good times with Lam and for a period between 2010-11 I was of the opinion that with a quality 10 the Blues were title contenders. Of course, the solutions Lam came up with were underwhelming and bewildering to say the least. But it is fair to say in 2011 they played at a level that hasn't been reached under Umaga.
Going against him, Lam went 4-12 in 2012 with the best Blues squad since 2003. Allowed things to become so bad at the end that Woodcock felt compelled to leave. Lashing out at anonymous Blues fans for racist comments on talkback that were never located wasn't a high point. His selections were pretty odd at times, he had very little patience for some and blind loyalty to chaps like Brett. Lachie Munro marking up against Ioane on the wing for a semi-final?
Perhaps as a whole Lam was better than Umaga, but the 2012 season immediately preceding Kirwan was the worst of the bunch and the ripple effects from his tenure are still being felt today.
If you look at pure win/loss records in an unsophisticated way sure.
If you take into account that the Saffas and Oz team's form has fallen off a cliff, then the only fair measure is their results against other NZ teams where the standard across the board has been fairly consistent across the three coaches.
Tana's success rate by that measure is 5% over three years. 1 win out of 20 games.
Lam was easily the best out of the three, making the semi finals in his tenure. And with the restrictions of only been able to select from within the region, not getting the additional coaching support that both Kirwan and Tana got, and without the new training facilities to entice new players to the region.
Take away his injury plagued last season, and look at Lam's success since leaving the Blues I think his reputation ends up the best, quite easily.
Kirwan was poor, no doubt about it, almost as bad a selector as Tana although he didn't try to fill the team with second division "talent".
Tana is easily the worst coach the Blues have ever had, and was deservedly sacked. It says everything about the guy that after being sacked he doesn't have the class to leave as well. Pretty unbelievable really.
Must be a sweet paycheck. I wouldn't be surprised in a year if he just quietly moves on to stink up some other joint.
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@chris-b yep, needs to be someone that demands selection, and you'd think those 2 fit the bill. Could look to SBW or Nonu I guess as co-captains, but they are likely to play leadership roles anyway and neither likely to be about beyond 2019?
Gibson for all his talent, needs a decent period uninjured so best to just leave him to get on with it, maybe make him co-captain?
Tuipulotu doesnt strike me as a leader, Parsons, well he's lucky he has had minimal pressure on his position over the years and in the last 3 years coaches reluctant to use anyone else regardless of form; Pulu while may have the mana, but again, doesnt demand selection, isnt a solid player that turns up week in week out
Does Papali'i have leadership pedigree?
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@taniwharugby said in Blues 2019 - (New Head Coach):
@chris-b yep, needs to be someone that demands selection, and you'd think those 2 fit the bill. Could look to SBW or Nonu I guess as co-captains, but they are likely to play leadership roles anyway and neither likely to be about beyond 2019?
Gibson for all his talent, needs a decent period uninjured so best to just leave him to get on with it, maybe make him co-captain?
Tuipulotu doesnt strike me as a leader, Parsons, well he's lucky he has had minimal pressure on his position over the years and in the last 3 years coaches reluctant to use anyone else regardless of form; Pulu while may have the mana, but again, doesnt demand selection, isnt a solid player that turns up week in week out
Does Papali'i have leadership pedigree?
Must not make SBW or Nonu captain! Tana's captain needs to go as well. Gibson seems to have trouble staying on the park unfortunately, so he's probably not a great choice either.
Probably too early for Dalton, maybe Akira? Seems very well respected by the players, is a certain pick.
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@chris-b said in Blues 2019 - (New Head Coach):
@duluth I'd pick Gibson or Papali'i.
Parsons speaks well in the media, but for me he's mediocrity personified as a player. Well, that's a bit harsh, but he's not the future.
Get someone young and inspirational!
TJ Faiane!
Gibson is the obvious option. He did a good job for Auckland before breaking again.
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@duluth said in Blues 2019 - (New Head Coach):
@chris-b said in Blues 2019 - (New Head Coach):
@duluth I'd pick Gibson or Papali'i.
Parsons speaks well in the media, but for me he's mediocrity personified as a player. Well, that's a bit harsh, but he's not the future.
Get someone young and inspirational!
TJ Faiane!
Gibson is the obvious option. He did a good job for Auckland before breaking again.
I so wanted to put TJ down!
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@kirwan said in Blues 2019 - (New Head Coach):
@rotated said in Blues 2019 - (New Head Coach):
@kirwan said in Blues 2019 - (New Head Coach):
@rotated said in Blues 2019 - (New Head Coach):
Wasn't a massive fan of MacDonald taking over from Tana the last time but I'll give this a chance...
But full credit for the Blues making a move. Tana has been an improvement on SJK and Lam but still ultimately was seemed outmatched and outclassed by other NZ franchise coaches. Still ultimately I would like to see a non-ex-AB coach though after now four on the trot.
In what way was Tana an improvement? He has a worse record than both those coaches, selected terrible squads and presided over some of the worst results in our history. 60fucking points conceded on Eden Park FFS.
To begin with Umaga has a better record than SJK just on pure numbers but it's much of a muchness and both have records between 40-46% as does Lam. They would rank as the three of the four worst coaches of NZ franchises in the 2010s - the argument would just be about order.
Kirwan is the easier one, under his tenure the Blues felt like the Melbourne Rebels. Where to start? The guy fundamentally didn't understand Super Rugby. Genuinely thought Benji Marshall would be able to play 10 at Super level? Personally exiled three future All Blacks and one Welsh international? Mick Byrne as an assistant coach? Captain Ali Williams? This year has proved yet again it must be bloody difficult to have Graham Henry full time on your staff and not be good. SJK achieved this.
Lam is a more debatable one. There were good times with Lam and for a period between 2010-11 I was of the opinion that with a quality 10 the Blues were title contenders. Of course, the solutions Lam came up with were underwhelming and bewildering to say the least. But it is fair to say in 2011 they played at a level that hasn't been reached under Umaga.
Going against him, Lam went 4-12 in 2012 with the best Blues squad since 2003. Allowed things to become so bad at the end that Woodcock felt compelled to leave. Lashing out at anonymous Blues fans for racist comments on talkback that were never located wasn't a high point. His selections were pretty odd at times, he had very little patience for some and blind loyalty to chaps like Brett. Lachie Munro marking up against Ioane on the wing for a semi-final?
Perhaps as a whole Lam was better than Umaga, but the 2012 season immediately preceding Kirwan was the worst of the bunch and the ripple effects from his tenure are still being felt today.
Must be a sweet paycheck. I wouldn't be surprised in a year if he just quietly moves on to stink up some other joint.
I can't really read between the lines here? Are you happy that Umaga is no longer head coach?.........
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@duluth is def an option, but guess it all depends on how much time SBW and Nonu get (either not being broken or in SBW, not being rested)
Gibson probably most likely, just hope he doesnt break again, so expect co-captains?
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@taniwharugby said in Blues 2019 - (New Head Coach):
@duluth is def an option, but guess it all depends on how much time SBW and Nonu get (either not being broken or in SBW, not being rested)
Gibson probably most likely, just hope he doesnt break again, so expect co-captains?
Yeah a co-captain would make sense given Gibsons injury history.
I like Gibson based on the comments of the Auckland players in the media. Apparently he was blunt with team mates and enforced standards.
As for TJ I was mostly joking. However he is one of the players that MacDoanld should look to build the team around over the next few years - TJ, Papali'i, Goodhue, Ioanes, Plummer etc
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@taniwharugby said in Blues 2019 - (New Head Coach):
Does Papali'i have leadership pedigree?
Yes.
My view of Kirwan and Tana is they were both pretty poor and at a fairly similar level (well below Lam). Lam had one shocking season where he didnt have enough coaching support.
Tana had a woeful record vs NZ teams but Kirwan had a woeful away record. At least Kirwan was smart enough to bring in Henry and Byrne early on whereas Umaga's coaching assistants have been a big fail. On the other hand I appreciate that Tana generally avoided going after officials after losses whereas Kirwan came across as a whinger, meanwhile he picked Ali Williams as captain and wondered why his team's discipline was shit.
I don't mind Tana staying on in a defensive portfolio. Just because he didn't work as head coach doesn't mean he cant be good as an assistant coach (e.g. Nick White as head coach vs Nick White as a scrum coach). If they think Tana is the best coach they can have as the defensive coach then good - I'd rather he be there than just getting rid of him to replace him with a lesser defensive coach (cutting your nose off to spite your face).
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There is going to be a TSF meltdown when Collins is named captain.
Coventry was happy to have Parsons as his NH captain, while he was Umaga's captain too. So MacDonald will need to make the decision as the head coach. Why not Ofa as one of the co-captains?
