Hawke's Bay rugby 2018
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Maybe it’s because HB had no room for Renton.
Club Rugby is pretty poor compared to other places, Marist beat everyone by 50 points. Big Gap between the top teams and bottom teams. Hopefully the outside players will lift the club Comp and bring others up to there standards -
I watched a lot of club rugby last year.
I agree with @footy01 it was poor.
The reaction of Havelock North and Taradale to importing players is more to do with their own poor seasons last year - they both missed the playoffs, Havelock North for the first time since 1994 and Taradale for the first time since 2005. "Can't allow that to happen again, mate - what will our sponsors do?"
As @Nepia correctly points out HBRU sponsorship and gate revenue dropped as the Magpies had a poor season. Sponsorship also drops for clubs when they have a poor season.
As with all clubs in NZ, Havelock North and Taradale are only interested in their own well-being. They don't get paid, or get an incentive for developing players for the provincial team. HB clubs resent losing their Magpies at the business end of the season when they get taken away into pre-NPC camp.
This is not exclusive to Hawke's Bay but is in the other Mitre 10 Cup provinces as well. Some of them have got around the second part (losing their rep players at the business end of the season because of pre-NPC) by starting their season earlier or reducing the number of premier clubs. Some like Counties Manukau start second week in March, but then you get criticism for starting too early. Some like Taranaki (I think) have reduced their number of premier clubs to eight to start at that normal time and still finish before end of July to keep their rep players for the playoffs.
Quantity and quality of talent coming through from the High Schools into club rugby is low. The stars get picked up by the HB Academy and usually go straight into Premier grade for a club. But their 1st XV team-mates that don't get picked up into the Academy might play colts grade and a lot just don't play at all because they're not with their mates anymore. Right there is the well known drop out rate.
A problem is with the schools themselves. The clubs and the HBRU (as with the other provinces) have to deal with school principals. School principals look at help, funding, and a balance sheet for their schools. This includes rugby, which in real terms is exclusively their first XV. The XV's below the first XV hardly get any consideration by comparison, which is another contribution to the well-known High Schools drop out rate - it's the first XV or nothing.
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@Number-10 Why have Marist become a Super Club just recently? There was always a decent competition between the top 4 or so teams. Does the competition setup issues you highlight contribute to this?
I don't think anyone has a problem with clubs importing players, as long as they're quality.
The Renton case is a weird one though, the Canes and the Magpies carried him while he was injured and then he's gone to Canterbury. that seems odd. Was there a falling out? Has he retired due to his injuries and just going down there for education?
I'm not sure I'm onboard with the schools stuff. HB only (really) has two schools to choose from and generally there's decent talent coming through one or the other. Hell, Manawatu were competitive (not top drawer, but accounted well fro themselves) with a team almost exclusively from PNBS (and the odd Fielding player) for a few years - TBF they had Rennie as coach and not Philpott. Uni must contribute to the drop out rate as well, but that is no different than normal though.
You sound like you've had some interactions with the principals?
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@stargazer said in Hawke's Bay rugby 2018:
@number-10 So now they're attracting players from outside the province for club rugby? It's bad enough that's it's necessary at NPC level, but aren't they now taking the place of potential Bay talent? Unless there's a shortage of club rugby talent, I'm not happy about it. These outsiders may stall the development of local players.
Do you know where they're from? I sincerely hope that after years of being flooded by Canterbury rejects, we're now not going to get an influx of Auckland rejects. Geez, I hope they're at least from the Hurricanes catchment, preferably the smaller Heartland unions.
I think there clearly is a shortage of talent in club rugby and outside imports are needed particularly for clubs like MAC and Tamatea.The new players shouldnt be guaranteed itm cup contracts,imo but should have to prove themselves in club rugby first.Surely a stronger and more even club competition is beneficial to everyone and ultimately hopefully the magpies.
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I only just now discovered that Joe Penitito is playing in France since October. He's with Club Sportif Beaunois, which competes in Pool 2 of Fédérale 2.
I read his interview on their website, and reading between the lines, he's there because he didn't get selected for the Magpies. So it looks like he won't be back to compete for a Magpies spot and that's a real shame. I rate the guy.
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@stargazer said in Hawke's Bay rugby 2018:
Club Sportif Beaunois
That is a somewhat obscure name. Any guess as to what sort of standard they could be rated against in NZ terms eg Mitre 10 Development sides, Heartland Champ etc? Still do not see what the former coach saw in that import guy that plays 7s for Samoa ahead of him.
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@higgins I always thought that Fédérale 1 is close to Heartland level, so Fédérale 2 should be below that. Maybe @mooshld can tell us?
Btw I think they brought Selesele in at a point that Penitito was injured. Wasn't he injured for about the whole 2016 NPC season? Or was that the year before? He should have been picked in 2017 though, no doubt about that!
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@nepia said in Hawke's Bay rugby 2018:
@Number-10 Why have Marist become a Super Club just recently? There was always a decent competition between the top 4 or so teams. Does the competition setup issues you highlight contribute to this?
I don't think anyone has a problem with clubs importing players, as long as they're quality.
The Renton case is a weird one though, the Canes and the Magpies carried him while he was injured and then he's gone to Canterbury. that seems odd. Was there a falling out? Has he retired due to his injuries and just going down there for education?
I'm not sure I'm onboard with the schools stuff. HB only (really) has two schools to choose from and generally there's decent talent coming through one or the other. Hell, Manawatu were competitive (not top drawer, but accounted well fro themselves) with a team almost exclusively from PNBS (and the odd Fielding player) for a few years - TBF they had Rennie as coach and not Philpott. Uni must contribute to the drop out rate as well, but that is no different than normal though.
You sound like you've had some interactions with the principals?
Napier OB Marist have had a very settled team in the last couple of years. In 2017 and 2016 combined they only lost three frontline players from the year before: David Benson (in 2017) and Fergus McCool and Dan Walker (both in 2016).
Also they must have a good coach in Craig Gowler who has been their premier coach since 2014. He is getting results and a contributory factor to that must be he also relates well to the players. By contrast, Clive were beaten finalists in last year's Maddison Trophy and have sacked their coach Blair Cross because the players didn't want him.
Don't know anything about Hugh Renton's decision to go to Canterbury. He obviously was off-contract with both Hurricanes and Hawke's Bay to do so. Apparently Magpies lock Tom Parsons, who went to Manawatu in 2015, is returning.
The schools in HB that produce the most rugby talent are Napier BHS (roll 1200), Hastings BHS (roll 750), Lindisfarne College (roll 400) and St Johns College (roll 350). It is not a coincidence that they are also boys-only schools.
All four now participate in North Island secondary school rugby competitions - but to do so requires (extra special) funding for their first XV's, which relates back to the earlier point I made in my previous post. School principals are happy to take help, whether it be financial, admin, coaching of their teams by clubs/provincial unions but there is no guarantee of anything in return to the clubs/provincial unions who might want to help.
The relationship is one-sided. First XV players that leave can go to another club. First XV players can go to other unions. Provincial RU academies don't want bulk players, literally have no room for them in in-take numbers or financially; they only want the best players anyway.
Taradale RC used to have such a relationship with Taradale HS, but I'm not certain they do now.
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@stargazer said in Hawke's Bay rugby 2018:
@higgins I always thought that Fédérale 1 is close to Heartland level, so Fédérale 2 should be below that. Maybe @mooshld can tell us?
Btw I think they brought Selesele in at a point that Penitito was injured. Wasn't he injured for about the whole 2016 NPC season? Or was that the year before? He should have been picked in 2017 though, no doubt about that!
Only the top 2 levels of Rugby in France are fully professional Fed 2 is Amateur club rugby. But there are over a 100 teams and they play in their local pools before progressing to a national comp. Anyway its normally amateur but you sometimes hear about semi pro setups.
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@stargazer
It would be around senior club level in NZ maybe a bit lower. -
@mooshld Geez, then Penitito is indeed taking a big gamble. He's a Mitre 10 Cup level player with the ambition to play professionally and leaves everything behind to play at that level in France, just hoping to be picked up by a professional club. Because we had an incompetent coach who didn't give him a contract, despite Penitito showing lots of promise for several years (but out with a serious injury for some time). I really hope he succeeds.
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@number-10 So basically he couldn't get a SR contract for 2018 and is now looking for a NZ province that wants him for NPC? Or is the situation in NZ club rugby so dire that Ozich and co. had to go looking overseas?
At least he's Auckland born and not another Aussie. I hope he didn't get a Magpies (dev) contract yet, but has to show via club rugby that he's worth a spot in the squad. At least, from what I remember, he isn't completely rubbish, although I can still clearly remember that dirty hit on Shaun Stevenson that earned him a red card and 5 weeks suspension.
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@number-10 It's good to have depth if these non-local players are indeed good enough, yes. That hasn't always been the case though. At least Taulagi has SR experience, so that's a plus. The proof will be in the pudding, I guess.
I'm fine with players from outside the region if they either have sufficiently proven their worth in NPC/SR, or if they have earned a spot by playing club rugby and proven to be better than the locals. They also shouldn't block the development of local young talent coming out of school, if these youngsters decide to stay in the province.
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@number-10 said in Hawke's Bay rugby 2018:
Wing/fullback JJ Taulagi
Queensland Reds 2014-2016
Sunwolves 2017
Samoa 1 test, 2017is in Hawke's Bay and will play for Tech OB.
I am hoping he will be good enough to get into the Texans 1st XV
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Renee Holmes (right photo in the tweet) is a young and very talented player, just out of Gisborne GHS, who played for the Hawke's Bay Tuis last year. Hopefully, she will stay for this year's Farah Palmer Cup and not be stolen by one of the other provinces or moving on to another sport. The Tuis have been woeful due to the lack of support from the union over the years (leading to good players going elsewhere - other provinces, league, netball etc), but the HBRU seems to have made some changes last year, so hopefully that will pay off. They definitely can use a talent like Holmes to lift the team.
