Crusaders 2018
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@sammyc said in Crusaders 2018:
@booboo said in Crusaders 2018:
@sammyc said in Crusaders 2018:
@gt12 said in Crusaders 2018:
@african-monkey said in Crusaders 2018:
Oli Jager used to dominate at club level from what I saw of him last season. In most games the Brighton front row would get the upper hand over their oppsing scrums.
Great, but why are the Saders developing a future Irish player? He's on record as saying he sees himself as Irish and wants to play for them.
(Assumes trump voice) "Send him home!"
Maybe complain about the Chiefs picking Michael Leitch or that useless Japanese prop instead.
Oh I've done that.
How about "as well". Or can't we complain about anything Canterbury?
My point is that those guys are mercenaries, other than playing for the Chiefs they don't contribute anything to NZ rugby.
Jager came here as an 18 year old, had to find work outside of rugby, probably holds New Zealand residency, lives in Christchurch for the whole year, plays regular club rugby, contributes greatly to the Brighton club and community I'm told, and has worked his way up through the grades.
I'm happy for someone like that to be given an opportunity.
He seems to like the place. He first headed down when he was 14 for a month long training stint. Went back when he was 17 and did a stint in HIgh Performance unit. And got asked back again after he turned 18. Been there since. And now locked in till 2020. It'll be interesting to see how it goes. He's an interesting
projecterrr I mean prospect. -
@sammyc said in Crusaders 2018:
@cgrant said in Crusaders 2018:
I would add Fidow to this list.
What list? This is the crusaders 2018 thread
I was replying to akan004 who was citing Franks, Laulala, Moli and Lomax.
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@sammyc said in Crusaders 2018:
@booboo said in Crusaders 2018:
@sammyc said in Crusaders 2018:
@gt12 said in Crusaders 2018:
@african-monkey said in Crusaders 2018:
Oli Jager used to dominate at club level from what I saw of him last season. In most games the Brighton front row would get the upper hand over their oppsing scrums.
Great, but why are the Saders developing a future Irish player? He's on record as saying he sees himself as Irish and wants to play for them.
(Assumes trump voice) "Send him home!"
Maybe complain about the Chiefs picking Michael Leitch or that useless Japanese prop instead.
Oh I've done that.
How about "as well". Or can't we complain about anything Canterbury?
My point is that those guys are mercenaries, other than playing for the Chiefs they don't contribute anything to NZ rugby.
Jager came here as an 18 year old, had to find work outside of rugby, probably holds New Zealand residency, lives in Christchurch for the whole year, plays regular club rugby, contributes greatly to the Brighton club and community I'm told, and has worked his way up through the grades.
I'm happy for someone like that to be given an opportunity.
Leitch is a NZer. Now, I know you're in a everybody is picking on Canterbury mood but don't you think it's odd the amount of Australian players on the Crusaders books this year and next? That's not to say other franchises don't do it as well (the Chiefs enticing that young Australian is equally idiotic). A few years back when the Canes couldn't find a 10 the NZRU wouldn't let them select Brock James from the NPC - now we have at least three Aussie qualified players in one franchise in positions we're either well served in NZ (wing, loose forward) or need to have our own players develop with the top guys (prop).
A couple of spots reserved for PIs is all good with me, as I said below - any tier one countries does my head in though.
Anyway, your earlier comments on this thread about Blackadder and Hansen/Tew suggests you value Crusaders rugby over NZ rugby - which might explain why you're getting some grief over this. I want the Chiefs to win Super rugby, but not to the detriment of NZ rugby and the ABs success and basically any player we pay from another tier one country is to the detriment of NZ rugby.
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@nepia said in Crusaders 2018:
@sammyc said in Crusaders 2018:
@booboo said in Crusaders 2018:
@sammyc said in Crusaders 2018:
@gt12 said in Crusaders 2018:
@african-monkey said in Crusaders 2018:
Oli Jager used to dominate at club level from what I saw of him last season. In most games the Brighton front row would get the upper hand over their oppsing scrums.
Great, but why are the Saders developing a future Irish player? He's on record as saying he sees himself as Irish and wants to play for them.
(Assumes trump voice) "Send him home!"
Maybe complain about the Chiefs picking Michael Leitch or that useless Japanese prop instead.
Oh I've done that.
How about "as well". Or can't we complain about anything Canterbury?
My point is that those guys are mercenaries, other than playing for the Chiefs they don't contribute anything to NZ rugby.
Jager came here as an 18 year old, had to find work outside of rugby, probably holds New Zealand residency, lives in Christchurch for the whole year, plays regular club rugby, contributes greatly to the Brighton club and community I'm told, and has worked his way up through the grades.
I'm happy for someone like that to be given an opportunity.
Leitch is a NZer. Now, I know you're in a everybody is picking on Canterbury mood but don't you think it's odd the amount of Australian players on the Crusaders books this year and next? That's not to say other franchises don't do it as well (the Chiefs enticing that young Australian is equally idiotic). A few years back when the Canes couldn't find a 10 the NZRU wouldn't let them select Brock James from the NPC - now we have at least three Aussie qualified players in one franchise in positions we're either well served in NZ (wing, loose forward) or need to have our own players develop with the top guys (prop).
A couple of spots reserved for PIs is all good with me, as I said below - any tier one countries does my head in though.
Anyway, your earlier comments on this thread about Blackadder and Hansen/Tew suggests you value Crusaders rugby over NZ rugby - which might explain why you're getting some grief over this. I want the Chiefs to win Super rugby, but not to the detriment of NZ rugby and the ABs success and basically any player we pay from another tier one country is to the detriment of NZ rugby.
Leitch plays for Japan and doesnt contribute anything to NZ rugby other than playing for the Chiefs.
I 100% value Crusaders/ Canterbury success over AB success. I know I'm in a minority here but I've never made that a secret. I hardly ever post on All Blacks threads because I don't care that much.
I'd probably even rank local club rugby (community sport in general actually) as more important than the Abs. Sport is for the local communty and I think the ABs have lost that in search of profit in recent years.
So yes, I want the Crusaders to play the best team possible,
I think that because he's come over here and played through the grades, he's actually benefited NZ rugby at grassroots level. Rugby isnt only about the professional side (although I can understand a NZer living in Sydney having a different view on this)
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@nepia I'm tending to agree - which goes against the grain.
I guess, under the three year residency rule, probably all of Macilai, Jager and Samu are already eligible for NZ. And Alaalatoa is probably more two years towards it. All of which begs the question of whether any of these guys should be picked for the ABs - to my mind, none of them are primarily New Zealanders - though the precedent is already set, including by their team-mate Tamanivalu. Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if, given the choice, all of them have a preference to be ABs over their home countries.
Ioane is sort of the odd man out, in that he's never going to be eligible for NZ - but, on the other hand, he's seemingly unlikely ever to feature for Oz again either.
Strangest thing is that all of these Australian guys are good players who would have benefited the under-strength Australian teams - especially Ioane, who was a known quantity and probably hasn't been greatly improved by coaching in NZ - compared with Samu and Alaalatoa.
On Sammy's side of the ledger - I'm glad we had them, because they all contributed to a long overdue Super title, but I'd like to see us now working towards thinning them out - and, in fact, thinning out a few more that don't play NPC rugby in the Crusaders' region (without being completely anal about this).
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@chris-b are the ‘regions’ still relevant given the direct contracting and player movement we see. I didn’t think the ‘protected’ players system existed anymore like years past.
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@act-crusader It doesn't.
I'd just like to see us - as much as possible - developing people who are playing for Canterbury and Ta$man, rather than developing people who play for other provinces.
But, we can't be anal about this. As I saw Jeff Wilson pointing out in regard to people saying that the Blues have the largest catchment in NZ -"You don't. The other franchises are recruiting from the whole of NZ!"
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@sammyc said in Crusaders 2018:
... I think the ABs have lost that in search of profit in recent years.
Whilst I respect your opinion and your right to wrong (
) the thing about that is the AB's profit is that it funds Super Rugby including the Crusaders and a good proportion of Rugby in general.Super Rugby including the Saders will not fund themsleves.
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@booboo said in Crusaders 2018:
@sammyc said in Crusaders 2018:
... I think the ABs have lost that in search of profit in recent years.
Whilst I respect your opinion and your right to wrong (
) the thing about that is the AB's profit is that it funds Super Rugby including the Crusaders and a good proportion of Rugby in general.Super Rugby including the Saders will not fund themsleves.
There's a balance to that though.. 4 tests in aickland this year is too many in my opinion.
The match at Albany stadium only had 30k didn't it? You're not sacrificing a lot of money to share games like that around the country
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@chris-b Macilai has said he wants to play for the ABs if the opportunity arises, but was selected in the 2015 WTG for Fiji RWC (didn't make the squad) at the suggestion of Nadolo.
For me, Super rugby is rugby I like to watch, no real connection to any team, plus it has been to the detriment of true provincial rugby.
I follow those teams more closely with a Northland player in there, as Northland is at the top of the tree, I get more upset (which is more frequent unfortunately) when we lose than when the ABs do, but realize the shop window that is the ABs helps drive all that is good about NPC
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@taniwharugby said in Crusaders 2018:
I get more upset (which is more frequent unfortunately) when we lose than when the ABs do
I'm more annoyed these days when the Crusaders or Ta$man lose than the ABs, but I think that's largely because the ABs have built up such a stock of credit that a loss is pretty much an aberration - and most losses are pretty inconsequential.
We've only lost 20 times in the Henry-Hansen era. By far the most consequential defeat was the 2007 QF defeat and I'd be surprised if that one didn't gut you more than any Northland loss of recent times.
Losing to Ireland was annoying, but "always going to happen eventually given the number of times we play them".
Losing to the Lions was annoying, but "We woulda won easily except for that dumb fuck Sonny-Bill and wait till the third test...".
...and so it goes.
Even if we don't win the next RWC, I think most of us will be fairly philosophical about it. You really have to go back to the Hart/Smith/Mitchell (Eales!) era of for a sustained period of gutting AB losses (aside from the four yearly RWC debacles)!
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@sammyc said in Crusaders 2018:
@nepia said in Crusaders 2018:
@sammyc said in Crusaders 2018:
@booboo said in Crusaders 2018:
@sammyc said in Crusaders 2018:
@gt12 said in Crusaders 2018:
@african-monkey said in Crusaders 2018:
Oli Jager used to dominate at club level from what I saw of him last season. In most games the Brighton front row would get the upper hand over their oppsing scrums.
Great, but why are the Saders developing a future Irish player? He's on record as saying he sees himself as Irish and wants to play for them.
(Assumes trump voice) "Send him home!"
Maybe complain about the Chiefs picking Michael Leitch or that useless Japanese prop instead.
Oh I've done that.
How about "as well". Or can't we complain about anything Canterbury?
My point is that those guys are mercenaries, other than playing for the Chiefs they don't contribute anything to NZ rugby.
Jager came here as an 18 year old, had to find work outside of rugby, probably holds New Zealand residency, lives in Christchurch for the whole year, plays regular club rugby, contributes greatly to the Brighton club and community I'm told, and has worked his way up through the grades.
I'm happy for someone like that to be given an opportunity.
Leitch is a NZer. Now, I know you're in a everybody is picking on Canterbury mood but don't you think it's odd the amount of Australian players on the Crusaders books this year and next? That's not to say other franchises don't do it as well (the Chiefs enticing that young Australian is equally idiotic). A few years back when the Canes couldn't find a 10 the NZRU wouldn't let them select Brock James from the NPC - now we have at least three Aussie qualified players in one franchise in positions we're either well served in NZ (wing, loose forward) or need to have our own players develop with the top guys (prop).
A couple of spots reserved for PIs is all good with me, as I said below - any tier one countries does my head in though.
Anyway, your earlier comments on this thread about Blackadder and Hansen/Tew suggests you value Crusaders rugby over NZ rugby - which might explain why you're getting some grief over this. I want the Chiefs to win Super rugby, but not to the detriment of NZ rugby and the ABs success and basically any player we pay from another tier one country is to the detriment of NZ rugby.
Leitch plays for Japan and doesnt contribute anything to NZ rugby other than playing for the Chiefs.
I 100% value Crusaders/ Canterbury success over AB success. I know I'm in a minority here but I've never made that a secret. I hardly ever post on All Blacks threads because I don't care that much.
I'd probably even rank local club rugby (community sport in general actually) as more important than the Abs. Sport is for the local communty and I think the ABs have lost that in search of profit in recent years.
So yes, I want the Crusaders to play the best team possible,
I think that because he's come over here and played through the grades, he's actually benefited NZ rugby at grassroots level. Rugby isnt only about the professional side (although I can understand a NZer living in Sydney having a different view on this)
Holy fuck, I don't really know where to start with this - but here goes. You're welcome to support who you support, but ...
the Crusaders are funded by the NZRU, until they fund themselves then they can play "the best team possible". You may not love the ABs and the NZRU, but they're the shop front that allows the Crusaders to exist, to contract players from outside of the region, which filters down to the Canterbury NPC team and with younger players to the club competition as well.
How has Pete Samu and Digby Ioane benefitted NZ rugby? How did Ben Volavolva? They're not of that much of a higher standard than similar NZ players yet they suck up decent sums of money that could be spent on NZers. Those guys are mercenaries too if you're throwing that accusation around. Leitch may be a Japanese international player, but you brought holding NZ residency into the equation, so NZ citizenship is on the table as well.
Jager has benefitted himself by coming here too, and if he decides to return to the NHs then he's taken up academy time and specialist training that could have been given to a NZer.
As for your last petulant comment in brackets, seriously WTF does where I live have to do with anything?
@Chris-B I'm not too bothered if these players are near meeting residency requirements, the fact is we don't need to be qualifying players via residency. I think there can be a little bit of leeway for players who come here for school, but adults arriving specifically to play rugby gets on my goat (Tamanivalu included). We don't need to import players.
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@taniwharugby @Chris-B Obviously, due to the past two years of Magpies ineptitude I care way more when the ABs lose now. I'd be an emotional wreck teetering on the edge of sanity if I cared too much about the Magpies results. Ah, but there will be a new broom next year (hopefully) so all will be right.
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@nepia said in Crusaders 2018:
As for your last petulant comment in brackets, seriously WTF does where I live have to do with anything?
It wasn't petulant (are you a 65 year old woman? because you sound like my mother) .......It's relevent, I was talking about community sport and club rugby. I doubt you follow either with much passion given you live in another country and never comment on those type of threads on here.
I do apologise if you've kept up your memberships to the local hawkes bay athletics, rugby or cricket club etc whilst living in Australia, however I think I'm pretty safe in assuming you haven't.
My comments were specifically about Oli Jager, I know for a fact he's made a big contribution to the local community and deserves his place.
I know you'd love to make this into a Canterbury v everyone else argument, find someone else to have that discussion with, I can't be bothered doing it for the 700th time with you.
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@sammyc said in Crusaders 2018:
@nepia said in Crusaders 2018:
As for your last petulant comment in brackets, seriously WTF does where I live have to do with anything?
It wasn't petulant (are you a 65 year old woman? because you sound like my mother) .......It's relevent, I was talking about community sport and club rugby. I doubt you follow either with much passion given you live in another country and never comment on those type of threads on here.
I do apologise if you've kept up your memberships to the local hawkes bay athletics, rugby or cricket club etc whilst living in Australia, however I think I'm pretty safe in assuming you haven't.
My comments were specifically about Oli Jager, I know for a fact he's made a big contribution to the local community and deserves his place.
I know you'd love to make this into a Canterbury v everyone else argument, find someone else to have that discussion with, I can't be bothered doing it for the 700th time with you.
Give it a rest, I follow as much rugby as I can at all levels (I've even been to the odd Sydney club match this year) and keep up with HB club and schools rugby via the Magpies pages on here and in discussions with friends and family back home.
FFS, unless you've posted as someone else on here I can barely remember having arguments over Canterbury/Crusaders with you - there's barely been any of those arguments since the pre-Blackadder days. Also, this is a thread about the Crusaders, why would we not be discussing Canterbury in this context?
Also, the discussion about overseas players in NZ is not just limited to this thread, it's a bit of a hot topic, we're not going to avoid discussing the Crusaders role in this because some of you guys can't handle criticism of Crusaders/Canterbury even if other franchises (e.g the Chiefs) are getting the same criticism.
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@nepia said in Crusaders 2018:
@sammyc said in Crusaders 2018:
@nepia said in Crusaders 2018:
Also, the discussion about overseas players in NZ is not just limited to this thread, it's a bit of a hot topic, we're not going to avoid discussing the Crusaders role in this because some of you guys can't handle criticism of Crusaders/Canterbury even if other franchises (e.g the Chiefs) are getting the same criticism.
Again you try to make an argument that doesn't exist.....
I can definitely handle criticism of the Crusaders...... I'm pretty sure I was one of their biggest critics on here during the Blackadder years. I was constantly calling for Blackadder and Riach to be fired, I also (very much wrongly) gave frank and honest opinions about my lack of faith in the Robertson appointment .
Can I make myself any clearer... I'm talking about Oli Jager. I think his case, for reasons posted above, is different to the other players you keep mentioning to make your point.
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In negotiations with the Crusaders to return for another season, the 30-year-old midfielder could present a lengthy highlight reel from this year's Mitre 10 Cup campaign with Canterbury when bargaining with the Christchurch-based franchise.
Bateman on Friday admitted "some progress" towards a new deal had been made, but refrained from delving into the subject with media.
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@kiwimurph said in Crusaders 2018:
Any favourite on who will replace Leon MacDonald as Crusaders backs coach?
Bevan Cadwallader?
One article speculated Jon Preston - would be a reasonable option. Struggling to think of anyone else obviously available who is at a similar level.
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People can criticise the make-up of the Crusaders squad all they like. The reality is that the Crusaders are operating within the NZRU rules, so if posters have an issue with too many foreign players they should take it up with the NZRU. And if people are genuinely worried about foreign players impacting negatively on our depth then it really doesn't matter whether they are 1st tier or 2nd tier eligible. Also, it's a bit rich people moaning about two Crusaders props being ineligible (Jager and Ala'alatoa) when you consider how many test props we've developed. If you include Tim Perry who came into the AB squad as injury cover, there have been four Crusaders props involved in this year's Rugby Championship for the All Blacks. And a 5th, Nepo Laulala, spent years developing his craft with Canterbury and the Crusaders academy as well. We're certainly doing our bit in terms of developing props.
