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@Frank said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
So your main point of contention is I forgot to include other Muslim extremist groups under this list of atrocities. I unfairly focused on ISIS.
Do I understand that correctly?I was more answering Kirwan's reply.
As I said: not 100% sure who the "one group" referred to initially.
But shit - that's a pretty big group. I'd rather throw in all the religious whackos together if its alright.
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@NTA said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
@Frank said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
So your main point of contention is I forgot to include other Muslim extremist groups under this list of atrocities. I unfairly focused on ISIS.
Do I understand that correctly?I was more answering Kirwan's reply.
As I said: not 100% sure who the "one group" referred to initially.
But shit - that's a pretty big group. I'd rather throw in all the religious whackos together if its alright.
No it is not alright, it is mealy mouthed obfuscation.
Just another tactic to minimise the role of Islam in global terrrorism.
Maybe a compromise and you just lump all the Islamic whackos together.... actually just the Islamic whackos who want to murder otehrs, or support them.
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@NTA with due respect since we've been friendly a long time, I can't really comprehend how you could equate Islamic terrorism with violence from any other religion, and I think it's about time you explained it using accurate statistics-for it seems very clear to me that an overwhelming preponderance of Terrorist attacks killing large numbers of people in many countries, are in the name of Islam.
Are you scared to speak the truth, or are you just a useful compliant liberal?
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@NTA
Nick (or other liberals on this board)- aside from the obvious of not meddling in Syria in the first place (thanks Obama and Hillary and Kerry) what would you have done / do about the refugee problem?-Would you have blocked them in the first place and forced them to go to only Arab countries?
-Set up enclosed refugee camps in countries nearby like Turkey?
-Or let them in wholesale like Merkel has?
-Would you start to deport them now in the wake of these terror attacks?I have asked a bunch of liberals these questions and have yet to hear any concrete plan - except saying tolerance every third word and a sense we owe these people somehow.
Personally, I would never have let them come in because I totally disagree with importing people with massively different belief systems, especially when an unknown proportion are actively despise the West and/or are at least sympathetic to Jihadist causes. On top of that, there are a large proportion that while not ISIS affiliated, are extremely anti-human rights.
I learned a lot of this from a guy called Sam Harris. (a liberal by and large)
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@Kirwan said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
So because it's not fully arrived in NZ it can't be a world war? Interesting definition.
Kind of ignores the fact that 50-80 potential terrorists are being tracked in NZ because of links to these nutjobs.
Also ignores that it's a different kind of world war that what WWII was. State sponsored asymmetric warfare, and with a stated invasion policy of breeding out the locals and undermining western law and culture.
Of course it's happening more in Europe, and to a lesser extent the US, purely because we are hard to get to. You'd have to really pushing your head into the sand hard to not think there is a worldwide war being waged on the west by Islam.
Suppose it's ignorable if you just call every attack nothing to do with the religion of peace, just the work of a lone wolf, bra.
It hasn't "fully arrived" anywhere in the West. In the 15 years its been going on.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing Islamic Terrorism isn't a thing, its a huge issue in todays world & its very much islamic, no issue with that. Same way hard left terror was a thing in the 70's. On another thread yesterday I directly named a stack of terrorist groups & pointed the finger right at the country that dictates Islamic thought to those groups FFS.
You seem to be desperately trying to tell me I don't think Islam was at the core of the attack this week what I actually said was your war line was crap.
The bit I find hyperbolic bullshit is the "we are at war!!" crap. We are not at war. There is ZERO existential threaty to the US, UK, NZ etc from Islamic terror any more than the UK was under some massive threat as the IRA mortared hotels, blew up buses & killed 100's. Or ETA in Spain or the Red Brigade in Germany. Fewer people have been killed in Europe by AQ & ISIS in the 15 year "war" than were killed in the 70's & early 80's by communist inspired terror.
The NZ secret service have regularly tracked Maori extremists, were we at war with them? Cause they killed the same number of Kiwis in NZ as AQ.
The whole "war" bullshit is just a crock to let polititians run on "I'll protect you!" platforms while pushing through internet privacy invasions, wire taps & so on. And it sells on the news.
To look at Berlin this week & go "yep, thats a war!" you'd have to have no fucking idea what Dresden looked like. There are 10's of millions of muslims in Europe, if we were at war with them it would not be one attack kills 12 people.
As for my track record, really? Cause I 100% got Trumps chances of winning wrong (tho' so far not his willingness or ability to implenent anything he promised), but what else you got? Since you've clearly been counting
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@Frank said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
Times are about to change...........at least in U.S. policy.
It already has, Obama stopped a congress & senate approved arms shipment to Saudi last week. Tho' its maybe going to change back -
"Donald Trump, the president-elect, has said the US should halt Saudi oil imports and demand "many billions of dollars" for the military defence of Saudi Arabia."
So he appears happy to support the core funder of AQ, ISIS etc, so long as they pay him.
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@Frank said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
Nick (or other liberals on this board)- aside from the obvious of not meddling in Syria in the first place (thanks Obama and Hillary and Kerry) what would you have done / do about the refugee problem?
-Would you have blocked them in the first place and forced them to go to only Arab countries?
-Set up enclosed refugee camps in countries nearby like Turkey?
-Or let them in wholesale like Merkel has?
-Would you start to deport them now in the wake of these terror attacks?I have asked a bunch of liberals these questions and have yet to hear any concrete plan - except saying tolerance every third word and a sense we owe these people somehow.
Personally, I would never have let them come in because I totally disagree with importing people with massively different belief systems, especially when an unknown proportion are actively despise the West and/or are at least sympathetic to Jihadist causes. On top of that, there are a large proportion that while not ISIS affiliated, are extremely anti-human rights.
Frank, seems odd that you would leave Putin and China off the list of people who meddled in Syria.
I see it as a dammed if you do dammed if you don't situation. You talk about human rights but if you don't give those same rights to the refugees are you any better then the people who would deny yours?
I am not sure how you force Arab countries to take them, without more meddling. Or how you block them, we are talking about a continent here. The border sizes are ridiculous If a wall won't keep Mexicans out of the US how would you block the entire Mediterranean coastline? Not to mention the land borders.
How do you get turkey to let them in over their borders without more meddling? If Turkey don't want anything to do with this, western influence to get them to become the holding ground is hardly going to go down well now is it.
Merkel had 2 choices in my view set up a program to let them in process them begin applications for residency start background checks, feed, cloth and house those in need. Try and root out the nasty buggers and send them back. Or she could let the majority starve at the border while those who could would have found a way in anyway and set themselves up outside the system illegally. She couldn't close every border in Europe any more then she could persuade them all that there was a better life waiting for them in Saudi, which lets be honest there wasn't. Those people were not going to go away after all they had endured to get there.
Would I deport all the syrian refugees in the wake of the attacks? If you are talking about the train attack, the xmas market attack, and Koln Train station assaults? As far as I am aware the train attack was an Afghan the Train station assaults were from mostly illegal immigrants not refugees and mostly not Syrian and the Xmas market is still unknown.
Would I deport a million people on the basis of these incidents. No I would not and I think that leads down a very dark path that the Germans are only too familiar with. Would I deport the perpetrators Hell yes!
In the midst of a massive humanitarian crisis. With 100's of people washing up dead daily on your beaches after trying to enter illegally, I would rather get them safe and legal and sort them out after approach. Is it perfect, Nope its not some will slip through. But I am yet to hear anyone regardless of political leaning come up with a better solution.
Frank where do you live? I find your comment about disagreeing about importing people with massively different belief systems a bit odd. That pretty much describes all of human history.
Anyway thats my take on it I don't have answers but I don't want a million people to starve or drown to death on my door step.
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Fuck here we go again. This thread is going to be just like every single one that went before it.
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
No it is not alright, it is mealy mouthed obfuscation.
Just another tactic to minimise the role of Islam in global terrrorism.
So you're going to tell me what I should think now?
I think doing harm to others in the name of bullshit like religion is fucked. I don't care which religion.
@Wairau said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
@NTA with due respect since we've been friendly a long time, I can't really comprehend how you could equate Islamic terrorism with violence from any other religion, and I think it's about time you explained it using accurate statistics-for it seems very clear to me that an overwhelming preponderance of Terrorist attacks killing large numbers of people in many countries, are in the name of Islam.
Are you scared to speak the truth, or are you just a useful compliant liberal?
Fuck. Are you a real person, or just Baron's other account?
Using statistics is about as pointless as the debate people were having on who was the bigger fluffybunny: Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin, or Hitler. None of those statistics have affected me directly. Neither have any religious terror organisations - including the big Islamic ones - harmed me in any way beyond the inconveniences of greater security.
But that is a fucked perspective to take. Other people are suffering. Terrorist attacks on foreign soil are fucked. War is fucked. People are dying in Aleppo due to Islamic militia fuckwits, Christian militia fuckwits, and people whose religion is geopolitical domination under an organised military.
Are you saying any one is worse than the other?
Ask the people in the CAR if they gave two fucks about Islamic terror, given that Anti-Balaka militia - whose Christian beliefs have led them to burn witches at the stake - were the terrorists. Holding civilians hostage. Raping women. Keeping sex slaves. Murdering babies. Forcibly converting Muslims to Christianity.
Are you happy that their targets were primarily Muslim? Does that sit OK with you?
Do I judge every other Christian on the planet by their actions? Fuck no. Just like I don't judge every other Muslim by the actions of a few.
So, for the record of both you and Baron: FUCK your perspective on Islam.
Fuck statistics, and any bullshit superiority complex you'd care to derive from it.
At the same time: FUCK religion. Don't care which one it is. If people had a bit of sense and we all went around with our own personal faith, maybe we'd all be more reasonable about it.
Evil lies in the hearts of ambitious men. Not in little books that fluffybunnies use to justify their actions.
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The important thing to me is to discriminate between refugees & economic migranrts, as Mooshld says, the Train assaults were almost all (all?) north africa economic migrants, usually there illegally. I've lost count the nymber of times they interview a refugee on telly he's actually a Pakistani or Algerian. They can fuck off back in a Hercules. It doesn't even have to land, it can just get low & open the doors. Its a massive failure in Europe that no one is trying to actually vet anyone. It took the press about 3 days to find out a 16 year old "child" let in to the UK was 25.
The vast majority of people desperately fleeing for their lives will do everything then can to fit in. Economic migrants coming over to earn some cash to send home are different.
Re how I'd treat the migrants differently, I'd wave through families with young kids, women, especially with a professional qualification (ie able to contribute), all of Syria's middle class has fled, thats a lot of doctors, engineers etc. Most of whom speak some other language. Women with young kids are what Europe needs. And they very rarely explode.
Single males, especially young single males need to be made to jump through a shit-ton of hoops, first of which is to prove who they are and where they are from. And even then they should be on a staggeringly short leash. EG you turn up as a single 25 year old male, once you prove you are Syrian & not say, Pakistani or Saudi or Iranian, great, you now have a 5 day a week job picking up rubbish & on your off days you are learnig German / English.
And obviously, full DNA database for everyone coming in.
Anyone turning up & demanding to go to x country instead can get in the Hercules too.
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@mooshld
Refugee camps can be set up. Arab countries can take these refugees. It takes dollars and political will.Mass importation of Islamic culture into Western culture (not just jihadists, but Conservative Islamists,) will lead to bigger problems down the road - this is just the beginning.
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@Frank said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
aside from the obvious of not meddling in Syria in the first place (thanks Obama and Hillary and Kerry)
And Bush and Bush Snr and Saddam and KSA and Iran and Israel and ... the fucking list goes on. Not a lot of people look good in this, so don't throw it at the last guy on the throne.
As for an answer: I love your idealism. Sure. Close the borders.
What if they tried to cross the border? Are you going to start shooting them? Call in the military and bomb them? Even if every citizen was 100% behind your actions?
You know those lines on a map aren't electrified flaming pits full of ravenous hellhounds, right? You start using violence on people with nothing to lose, you're going to get a result worse than what they have.
Trying to stop 900,000 people going into Germany - or anywhere in Europe - reeks of ignorance. Or madness. That's more than the standing military of Russia, just for reference. More than 20 times the size of available German Paramilitary resources. Even the German military number less than 200,000.
This is a fucking crisis. The time to avert it and make plans for a peaceful Syria died years ago, so people are doing what they can. Nobody has handled it perfectly, so they're trying to make a plan that returns things to "normal" as soon as possible.
But no, fine. You and Baron and Wairau sit back and relax while the bodies pile up. I'm sure your smug sense of "Not My Problem" and "Islam hates everyone" keeps you warm at night.
I, for one, don't lose any sleep over it. At the same time, I have never been more grateful to live in a geopolitically stable region.
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Funny that the vast majority ended up the countries with the most generous benefits. Must be a complete coincidence. But I'm sure Germany and Sweden would still have been their destinations regardless. Those countries being located so far south and all.
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@gollum said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
I've lost count the nymber of times they interview a refugee on telly he's actually a Pakistani or Algerian. They can fuck off back in a Hercules. It doesn't even have to land, it can just get low & open the doors.You made me laugh gollum - just wanted to let you know.
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@Frank said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
It takes dollars and political will.
The rich ones (KSA, UAE, etc) would have to sign the UN Refugees Convention. Which they're totally not going to fucking do in a million lifetimes. So they don't need money, and and have no political desire.
To prove HOW rich they are, they already provide financial aid to refugee efforts to other nations in the region (Jordan etc).
What they do NOT have a lot of is desire to share their country with undesirable Muslims (yay Islamic brotherhood!) and other religions like Christianity. Particularly when refugees are poor as fuck and bring nothing they don't already have.
And they already have LOTS of poor people in terms of uneducated labourers from other countries to build their shit while effectively holding them hostage and providing them the same workplace safety options as a pod of dolphins off the coast of Japan.
Nice try, though.
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@Frank said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
@mooshld
Refugee camps can be set up. Arab countries can take these refugees. It takes dollars and political will.Jordan & Lebanon have enormous refugee camps full of Syrians, way over 1m in each. Thats not new. And due to the size of the countries & their wealth (or lack of it) its hugely destabilising.
Lebanon has 6m people, stick in 1.5m refugees you now have another failed state. Same deal in Jordan.
UAE has got about 250k. In contrast the UK has taken 15k.
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@gollum said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
Yep, and in typical "well, I'm shocked" the guy the police in Germany are now hunting is a single, 25 year old Tunisian male. How the fuck does he get coinsidered for asylum?
Didn't a Tunisian do the Nice truck attack?
Bet that Pakistani guy is relieved.
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@NTA said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
Didn't a Tunisian do the Nice truck attack?
Yep. So now we have 2 attacks by ecominic migrants with zero valid asylum claims, from a country that is reasonably stable, and who never should have been let in.
And thats why we should ban refugees from a war zone.
Its a bit like going to war with Iraq because 14 Saudis & a couple of guys from UAE, funded by Saudis, crash a plane into your building.
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@gollum said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
Anyone turning up & demanding to go to x country instead can get in the Hercules too.
Yes - this. It shits me that there are boat people who get near to Australia because 4 or 5 other nations just passed them through. Then we spend billions housing them offshore instead of just processing things here, deciding who goes back, and getting the fuck on with it.
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@NTA said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
What if they tried to cross the border? Are you going to start shooting them?
Yes. Rubber bullets fucking hurt. To take gollum's 25 year old single male, they can fuck off back home and fight for their country.
The Failed policy of Multiculturalism