Eligibility back on the agenda
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@semper Aki was already a professional rugby player, unattached to any nation when he went to Ireland, Fekitoa was a school boy when he came to NZ, at which time he was a good 4+years off being eligible...that is a substantial difference I'd of thought?
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@taniwharugby said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@semper Aki was already a professional rugby player, unattached to any nation when he went to Ireland, Fekitoa was a school boy when he came to NZ, at which time he was a good 4+years off being eligible...that is a substantial difference I'd of thought?
@taniwharugby said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@semper Aki was already a professional rugby player, unattached to any nation when he went to Ireland, Fekitoa was a school boy when he came to NZ, at which time he was a good 4+years off being ...that is a substantial difference I'd of thought?
Fekitoa was not offered a scholarship on strength of his academic work. It was a rugby scholarship, with the benefits of it based on his rugby skills and naught else.
So one is about a kid being moved from their home place to a country where he has no familial ties and no previous relationship with and the other is about doing the same with an adult. All based purely on their skills with an oval ball.
I don't stand over Irish project players. I would happily only play residnecy qualified players for Ireland if they hold an Irish or UK passport. I am just asking for consistency from those who criticise what Ireland does.
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@Nepia said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@semper What bollocks, you know there is a clear difference. One moved as a schoolboy to a high school and the other moved to a professional club owned by the national body with the intention of playing for that nation. That's not even close.
So when Fekitoa got contracts from NZRFU Super Rugby teams his intention to qualify for NZ was not something that was even remotely a factor in it all? Hansen was talking about him in a NZ squad before he had qualified, so if it had occurred to him it probably wasn'the the first time someone in the Union thought about it.
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@semper The NZRU would likely have had no knowledge of Fekitoa before he he started putting good performances in at schoolboy level - for a scholarship that he sought out himself.
When he decided to stay in NZ and play his way up through provincial to Super rugby of course they'd offer him a contract - which is different than luring him to NZ as a project player which was the case with Aki.
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@Nepia said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@semper The NZRU would likely have had no knowledge of Fekitoa before he he started putting good performances in at schoolboy level - for a scholarship that he sought out himself.
When he decided to stay in NZ and play his way up through provincial to Super rugby of course they'd offer him a contract - which is different than luring him to NZ as a project player which was the case with Aki.
So if it was Aki's agent who contacted the Irish team first it would be okay?
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@semper Are you on the troll? Seriously? Because only a fool would equate a schoolboy moving to a country on a scholarship to a fully formed professional rugby player moving to another country with the intention of representing that country at international level.
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@Nepia said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@semper Are you on the troll? Seriously? Because only a fool would equate a schoolboy moving to a country on a scholarship to a fully formed professional rugby player moving to another country with the intention of representing that country at international level.
No. Fekitoa's scholarship made no difference to his eligibility to play for NZ. He was ineligible. He only became eligible because he was given three years of professional work in NZ - he got a significant portion of that work from two Super Rugby teams.
Aki will only become qualified to play for Ireland when he completes three years residency. The reason he will be able to complete that residency is because he is on a contract from a province (not the IRFU but a structure operating within the IRFU's control).
The fact the Fekitoa was on an educational scholarship would make not a job of difference to his ability to apply for a NZ passport. It makes not a jot of difference to his ability to demonstrate residnecy to the IRB in satisfaction of rule 8. The only thing that makes him a runner for either is the fact that he is a legal permanent resident that is only enabled by him having a professional rugby contract.
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@semper Firstly, to be clear, I am not a fan of Fekitoa playing for the All Blacks either. I understand that people make life choices for whatever reason and I respect that - just like I respect Aki's decison.
But what you are talking about is not the same situation. I've seen early interviews with Fekitoa which I've not been comfortable with either - those a young man from Tonga stating clearly that he wants to play for the All Blacks, and also saying that he would only play for Tonga, if he could't make the All Blacks. I don't really like that either.
Now, can you honestly say that either of these things happened for Aki? He wanted to play for Ireland? Before bags of money were hung before him? No way. The situation is totally different, it's not even remotely the same.
I appreciate your frustration in that some of my original thoughts may have been inaccurate fallacies brought about by reading media from those who should know better, as we down here have suffered that same fate for many a year. But lets compare apples with apples.
EDIT: Also this - So one is about a kid being moved from their home place to a country where he has no familial ties and no previous relationship with and the other is about doing the same with an adult. All based purely on their skills with an oval ball.
Do you have any idea at all about the demographic of the NZ make up? Here's a heads up. Tonga has a population of 100,000. NZ has a Tongan population of around 75,000. No familial ties you say?
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@Nepia of course he is. The Irish are remarkably sensitive about their state-sanctioned poaching agenda.
Probably because most of their poaches are decidedly average
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@mariner4life said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@Nepia of course he is. The Irish are remarkably sensitive about their state-sanctioned poaching agenda.
Probably because most of their poaches are decidedly average
How dare you besmirch the name of Isaac Boss! He was a half-decent 3rd string halfback for Waikato.
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Do you have any idea at all about the demographic of the NZ make up? Here's a heads up. Tonga has a population of 100,000. NZ has a Tongan population of around 75,000. No familial ties you say?
There are something like 6m people in Great Britain with Irish passport entitlements. I have one family member living over there, and if I had a kid going over to Manchester that would be shag all us to them.
To the substantive point Aki will only play for Ireland because he is being paid to do so. He did that after failing to break through for NZ. That is fair enough.
Fekitoa has long held the ambition to play for NZ despite not being eligible to do so. That is presumably on the basis that they are the best team in the world and playing for them is a key to a lot of riches and fame. Maybe those latter motives are purer. Fair enough.
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@mariner4life said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@Nepia of course he is. The Irish are remarkably sensitive about their state-sanctioned poaching agenda.
Probably because most of their poaches are decidedly average
A fair point, ye must be better at it than us....
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@semper said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
Do you have any idea at all about the demographic of the NZ make up? Here's a heads up. Tonga has a population of 100,000. NZ has a Tongan population of around 75,000. No familial ties you say?
There are something like 6m people in Great Britain with Irish passport entitlements.
You do realise that Irish citizenship is one of the easiest in the world to be eligible for?
The bit you possibly fail to understand is the unusual dynamic between NZ and some Pacific Islands. A young player could be born second generation in NZ but still have a very strong identity with their pacific heritage. They could even be sent over to the islands in their pre-school years to be looked after by members of the extended family. Their rugby heroes and team affiliation can be to both their country of birth and that of family.
I imagine that as a kid Fekitoa grew up worshipping the likes of NZ born Tongan Jonah Lomu and would aspire to being like him.
If he was setting himself a goal in life it would be the highest achievable and knowing he could become NZ eligible while gaining experience that would be a valid target.
A longer eligibility period isn't going to help much in these cases. If a kid from Tonga wants to play professional rugby they still have to get experience somewhere. By the time their experience is at a level for possible further honours a lot of the time has already been served so their choice is to play immediately for their birth country or wait another year and have a better option. -
@semper said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
No. Fekitoa's scholarship made no difference to his eligibility to play for NZ. He was ineligible. He only became eligible because he was given three years of professional work in NZ - he got a significant portion of that work from two Super Rugby teams.
The NZR actually provides professional pathways for PI eligible players.
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@Crucial said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@semper said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
Do you have any idea at all about the demographic of the NZ make up? Here's a heads up. Tonga has a population of 100,000. NZ has a Tongan population of around 75,000. No familial ties you say?
There are something like 6m people in Great Britain with Irish passport entitlements.
You do realise that Irish citizenship is one of the easiest in the world to be eligible for?
The bit you possibly fail to understand is the unusual dynamic between NZ and some Pacific Islands. A young player could be born second generation in NZ but still have a very strong identity with their pacific heritage. They could even be sent over to the islands in their pre-school years to be looked after by members of the extended family. Their rugby heroes and team affiliation can be to both their country of birth and that of family.
I imagine that as a kid Fekitoa grew up worshipping the likes of NZ born Tongan Jonah Lomu and would aspire to being like him.
If he was setting himself a goal in life it would be the highest achievable and knowing he could become NZ eligible while gaining experience that would be a valid target.
A longer eligibility period isn't going to help much in these cases. If a kid from Tonga wants to play professional rugby they still have to get experience somewhere. By the time their experience is at a level for possible further honours a lot of the time has already been served so their choice is to play immediately for their birth country or wait another year and have a better option.I get the logic entirely. Irish cricketers go through this a lot, if they want to make it big, declare for England. The one difference I suppose is that Irish cricketers can not play Test cricket.
Irish citizenship isn't even one of the easiest to get in the EU never mind the world.
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@antipodean said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@semper said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
No. Fekitoa's scholarship made no difference to his eligibility to play for NZ. He was ineligible. He only became eligible because he was given three years of professional work in NZ - he got a significant portion of that work from two Super Rugby teams.
The NZR actually provides professional pathways for PI eligible players.
Ah. My apologies. If Fekitoa had played for Tonga in 2013 it would have made no odds to his future in New Zealand rugby.
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@MajorRage said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@Pot-Hale Thanks - good response.
Yes, I am aware of what pundit arena is, but I thought that article was as good as anything else out there & it's certainly not devoid of fact. Remember this is a quote from Aki himself - ""That's a big part of my decision to move. Hopefully when the time is right and if I'm playing good footy, hopefully I can play for the Ireland international team."
Lam seems to be hugely popular up north. Which I do fine quite odd, as he struggled here.
Indeed. I find him to be a straight up, plain talking coach whose passion for the game and for the team he's coaching is highly admirable. To go to a development province in Ireland, on the outer in terms of financing, support and pedigree and turn it around to make them PRO12 champions is remarkable. He also found the time to learn some of the Irish language, always started every TV interview with a greeting in Irish, reached out to every county in the province, some of whom had little or knowledge of rugby, and get them all to buy in and along with Connacht CEO, Ruane, contributed to the club's development strategy Grassroots to Greenshirts. I have the utmost of respect for him and wish him only the best in his move to Bristol. His interview on the reasons for the move are another mark of the man - frank, honest and revealing in terms of his priorities for his own personal health, his family, and his own ambitions.
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@mariner4life said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@Nepia of course he is. The Irish are remarkably sensitive about their state-sanctioned poaching agenda.
Probably because most of their poaches are decidedly average
State-sanctioned? The Irish government has nothing to do with how professional sport is run in the country.
