Wallaby EOYT 2016
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@akan004 said in Wallaby EOYT 2016:
@mariner4life Yeah, sure is. I counted five players with Kiwi connections in this English squad. Hughes, Teo, Marko Vunipola, Hartley and Harrison. Billy Vunipola is born in Brisbane. Quality poaching from the hypocrites of world rugby.
Are you trying to be funny?
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Ignoring the poaching beat ups you do have to consider though about the resurgance in the NH recently being highly influenced by SH "imports".
Jones, Schmidt, Gatland, Lam, a plane load of players not only at a qualifying level but at club levels changing ideas of skills and tactics etc etc
It's certainly difficult to argue that this is some kind of home grown thing going on. -
Wouldn't personally say that for England on the player front. Teo, Hughes and Harrison (who's not very good tbf) have a handful of caps between them. Mako and Billy V have made big impacts, but they've been in England since they were kids. Not a fan of three year residency rule on the Hughes front. Sooner it goes to 5 years the better.
Jones has certainly made an impact though. Has managed to get the best out of pretty much the same group of players Lancaster had access to.
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@Margin_Walker said in Wallaby EOYT 2016:
Wouldn't personally say that for England on the player front. Teo, Hughes and Harrison (who's not very good tbf) have a handful of caps between them. Mako and Billy V have made big impacts, but they've been in England since they were kids. Not a fan of three year residency rule on the Hughes front. Sooner it goes to 5 years the better.
Jones has certainly made an impact though. Has managed to get the best out of pretty much the same group of players Lancaster had access to.
Well, the fact that they require Harrison and Hughes to push the incumbents means they are filling important roles.
No mention of the captain? No mention that one of the most influential players for a number of years in club rugby has been Nick Evans (not to mention a host of other "retirees" that have spread training methods and tactics? I often read comments from local players saying how much imports bring in attitude change etc -
@ACT-Crusader said in Wallaby EOYT 2016:
@akan004 said in Wallaby EOYT 2016:
@mariner4life Yeah, sure is. I counted five players with Kiwi connections in this English squad. Hughes, Teo, Marko Vunipola, Hartley and Harrison. Billy Vunipola is born in Brisbane. Quality poaching from the hypocrites of world rugby.
Are you trying to be funny?
You clearly weren't around in the 90s when every English hack was throwing accusations at NZ for poaching PI players etc when most of them knew the makeup of NZ society. Just think it's a bit ironic nowadays as you don't hear a sound from them.
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For the Aussie fans, I should say that living in London, my Brit friends thought that was a game Oz could have won. Penalty against Maykoe rather than lucky try for Poms and it's 16-6 at half time. That might have been enough for Oz to play with belief and composure. Think Cheika and co. had done their homework and sent team out excellently prepared.
Wobblies seemed to crumble at some point in second and once they stopped tackling England were made to look a lot better than they are. Far cry from Wallabies side who went 21-0 down to ABs in first 20 and stormed back only to lose in last minute. Timani looked excellent in first half but appeared to disappear. And backs developed severe case of dropsies. But on upward curve. -
@Crucial said in Wallaby EOYT 2016:
@Margin_Walker said in Wallaby EOYT 2016:
Wouldn't personally say that for England on the player front. Teo, Hughes and Harrison (who's not very good tbf) have a handful of caps between them. Mako and Billy V have made big impacts, but they've been in England since they were kids. Not a fan of three year residency rule on the Hughes front. Sooner it goes to 5 years the better.
Jones has certainly made an impact though. Has managed to get the best out of pretty much the same group of players Lancaster had access to.
Well, the fact that they require Harrison and Hughes to push the incumbents means they are filling important roles.
No mention of the captain? No mention that one of the most influential players for a number of years in club rugby has been Nick Evans (not to mention a host of other "retirees" that have spread training methods and tactics? I often read comments from local players saying how much imports bring in attitude change etcApologies for missing Hartley. His mother is English and he moved to England as a teenager, so I'm not massively concerned there. There are better hookers in the queue behind him at the moment anyway and he's there as an experienced head. Harrison and Teo both have English parents, so again that doesn't worry me massively. Hughes is more of an issue, but that's life until they change the rules.
Nick Evans? Yeah he's been good,as have plenty of SH players. Not denying at all that there's been a positive influence from the southern hemisphere. For me the primary reason for a resurgence (at least as far as England is concerned) has been the improved player pathway and club academies that are producing players capable of being a little more competitive on a world stage than they perhaps may have been in the past. Just look at the JWC where England have won it 3 of the last 4 years. These players are filtering through to the senior setup with recent experience of success at international level that perhaps wasn't there before. Perhaps some of that is the result of a SH attitude to youth development. Who knows?
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You only have to go down to a local club ground to see massive differences between the way rugby at those levels is played between NZ/Oz and U.K. A SH influence must certainly be coming in somewhere along the pathway, whether from coaches, imported players, or even trainers.
The obvious explanation for England's improvement is Eddie Jones. He may be a bit of a cock, but he does know how to get results as he has shown before. Without Jones England would probably still be as flaky and unsure of how they want to play as they were before him. -
@pakman said in Wallaby EOYT 2016:
For the Aussie fans, I should say that living in London, my Brit friends thought that was a game Oz could have won. Penalty against Maykoe rather than lucky try for Poms and it's 16-6 at half time. That might have been enough for Oz to play with belief and composure. Think Cheika and co. had done their homework and sent team out excellently prepared.
That's the hard lessons I'm glad we're learning now. England learned a lot last year, and Eddie's appointment has done what I thought it would: cut through a lot of political bullshit to get the team pointed the right direction.
Can they get better? Maybe, but their only competition there at the moment is Ireland. They need to keep inching forward.
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@NTA you would have to think there are some mental blocks in this team at present though?
Despite being competitive for large patches in most of the games, they still lost a shit load.
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@Crucial said in Wallaby EOYT 2016:
You only have to go down to a local club ground to see massive differences between the way rugby at those levels is played between NZ/Oz and U.K. A SH influence must certainly be coming in somewhere along the pathway, whether from coaches, imported players, or even trainers.
The obvious explanation for England's improvement is Eddie Jones. He may be a bit of a cock, but he does know how to get results as he has shown before. Without Jones England would probably still be as flaky and unsure of how they want to play as they were before him.There aren't a lot (if any) SH coaches coaching in the academies or England age groups. Eddie Jones has been great and has made a big impact (we're agreeing on this), but England are better than 5 or 10 years ago primarily because they are producing better players. Despite fluking a WC final in 07, we went a long time without bringing any players through who were even approaching world class. Eddie's not a miracle worker, as he's shown in the past when the wheels have fallen off some of his coaching gigs.
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@Crucial said in Wallaby EOYT 2016:
Ignoring the poaching beat ups you do have to consider though about the resurgance in the NH recently being highly influenced by SH "imports".
Jones, Schmidt, Gatland, Lam, a plane load of players not only at a qualifying level but at club levels changing ideas of skills and tactics etc etc
It's certainly difficult to argue that this is some kind of home grown thing going on.Indeed.
NZ rugby was influenced by the Welsh in the 70s and French in the 80s/90s and I read how NZ coaches would go back to NZ with new ideas all the time as well as getting ideas from other sports. -
The risk with Eddie is that he outstays his welcome and once the novelty wears off the players will stop listening. He has a history of getting on the wrong side of things after a while.
He needs to lock in his probable squad for 2019 and have their buy in for the period (which he seems to be doing) -
@profitius different people thrive in different environments.
It'd be pretty naïve to think that NZ simply rests on its own success and only look internally, similarly other nations have used NZs success for ideas.
There was a piece about the new England soccer coach looking at the AB way as well, and I know the AB coaches have spent time with coaches from other sports as well, sure a lot seem to come to them, but I expect the learnings go both ways even then.
All about striving to become better.
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TBF I think Eddie is treating this whole thing as an amusing late career bonus, that probably wasn't on the cards until that Japan/SA win and England's WC implosion.
You'd like to think there is some decent succession planning in place. Probably best not to look too far ahead or obsess about the squad for 2019 as this was something Lancaster probably became too focused on (for 2015). Just concentrate on the next series/tournament and moving players along when required. Right down to the 6N in a few months. No point talking too much about the Ireland game, as you'll just end up stumbling at one of the earlier hurdles.
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@taniwharugby said in Wallaby EOYT 2016:
@NTA you would have to think there are some mental blocks in this team at present though?
Despite being competitive for large patches in most of the games, they still lost a shit load.
The intercept try probably makes England look better than they were BUT that is what's on the scoreboard - 16 point victory is a thrashing when its England.
I actually take heart from the number of bombed chances we had against Ireland, because while the mental stuff is harder to train than the physical stuff, once its switched on its easier to maintain IMHO.
Cheika has said that the SR franchises now need to get on board, and while some of them will continue to do things their own way, the signs for 2017 are better than this season, even if that isn't necessarily put onto the park.
The Reds and Tahs, in particular, look in better shape for 2017 than they were this year. That has taken away from the Brumbies a little of course, but they've got King-In-Waiting Larkham at the helm and he'll be better for the experience of Wallaby assistant coach.
The Force have decided to move to a fan-ownership model, which has sparked some real interested in Perth. I maintain they have the most challenging task of any Super side in terms of travel, but they now have a few Wallabies of their own to help things turn around, as well as a new coach who might get them into the groove.
The Rebels also have a few blokes who have now worn gold, and will aspire to shoot it out with their northern brothers for a finals place.
The talent is still spread very thin, particularly in the coaching stocks, but 2017 should see a better effort across Australian rugby.
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It's basic skill errors that absolutely kill the Wallabies. They do create a lot of half to decent chances, but blow so many of them with shit passes, or players being too flat, or just straight drops. There isn't all that much Cheika can do about that, that's not really his remit as national coach.
However the lack of organisation is down to him. They run out of ideas after a few phases very very quickly. On the weekend, when England were making their tackles, they didn't know what the fuck to do, they just shuffled the ball around. The halfbacks arrived at the ruck, then had to look where to go next, and who might be ready. While they retained the ball, the lost ground, and they weren't forcing the English to make decisions, just run forward and whack someone. Their forwards couldn't bend the line either, so every ball was slow. Folau breaking the tackle relieved so much pressure, and led to the try.
The period after Kepu's try was really really one-sided rugby even with out Pocock's abysmal decision.
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@mariner4life said in Wallaby EOYT 2016:
There isn't all that much Cheika can do about that, that's not really his remit as national coach.
Fuck you wouldn't know that listening to some of the Queenslanders. They just think everything is NSW's fault since Link got booted.
As for the indecision: I wonder if part of that isn't down to a lack of a second organiser, and Hodge's inexperience.
Everyone on that tour is still better for it. If we get a bit of alignment in the professional ranks, and some more talent identified through the NRC, the provinces can improve.
The problem is overseas drain. We've got a few dozen blokes who could still play Super Rugby, but can't afford them.
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@NTA there are some gaping holes in that side, and none are quick fixes, and there are too many for the Aussies to ever be a dominant side again. So expectations need to be tempered i think. The 97-2002 days are more than likely never coming back.
The myth of the Australian Way probably needs to be put to bed as well. What Cheika needs to work on is getting the best out of the resources available. I'm not smart enough to work out what that is, given the lack of dominant tight players, or genuine game breakers in the backs, or tactical halves. But he's got to come up with a plan that wins games against good teams, not just competes with average ones.
I honestly don't know what to make of them, at times they look right in the mix, then in the same game they can look massively substandard. The last 2 weeks they've lost, and in each game they've looked great and shit. Against Scotland they won, but again looked awful for a heap of the game, but finished all over them. France was close as well. It's hard to tell whether you guys should be optimistic or not really.
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@akan004 said in Wallaby EOYT 2016:
@ACT-Crusader said in Wallaby EOYT 2016:
@akan004 said in Wallaby EOYT 2016:
@mariner4life Yeah, sure is. I counted five players with Kiwi connections in this English squad. Hughes, Teo, Marko Vunipola, Hartley and Harrison. Billy Vunipola is born in Brisbane. Quality poaching from the hypocrites of world rugby.
Are you trying to be funny?
You clearly weren't around in the 90s when every English hack was throwing accusations at NZ for poaching PI players etc when most of them knew the makeup of NZ society. Just think it's a bit ironic nowadays as you don't hear a sound from them.
I was around in the 90s. Had a pretty mean flat top that put 2-3 inches on my height.
The England rugby selectors pick foreign born players. Big deal, who cares, nothing to see there. Why are they hypocrites?
Sure some of the media and commentators based in England liked to point out what the All Blacks were doing and criticised it. Who cares, nothing new there. But what is the link between their articles and England selection? Zilch, nada, donut.
