European Politics
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@MajorRage said in European Politics:
@Victor-Meldrew said in European Politics:
I don't know a thing about Dublin and maybe you're right with the mindless hooliganism, but there def. seems to be a Europe-wide problem with big, big sections of society feeling alienated and ignored.
When you cut through the bullshit, isn't this ultimately why Brexit happened?
Mainly. Brexit was a neat peg to hang all sorts of grievances on. Job adverts with a requirements to speak Polish or Bulgarian didn't help either
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@ MR i disagree completely, rioting is not acceptable, the hatred directed at immigrants was disgusting and those people should be ashamed and shamed for what they did. They're scum.
As for the concerns that that is their underlying motivation (and for 90% of them i'm not convinced that it is) and that that underlying problem is worthy of discussion and approach, then i think we're in 'politicians telling the truth about the situation and stop treating the public like children' territory. I refer to the realities of immigration being necessary for a growing western economy.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in European Politics:
@Dodge said in European Politics:
@MajorRage said in European Politics:
@Victor-Meldrew said in European Politics:
I don't know a thing about Dublin and maybe you're right with the mindless hooliganism, but there def. seems to be a Europe-wide problem with big, big sections of society feeling alienated and ignored.
When you cut through the bullshit, isn't this ultimately why Brexit happened?
possibly, lots of motivations tied into Brexit vote, IMO reality is a bitch and some people don't like it (eg don't want immigration, don't like doing the jobs that immigration is required to fill)
Two points: Would help if politicians actually engaged with people and their concerns and tried to win arguments rather than disparage. Sadly, they don't/didn't.
On jobs, we need a carrot and stick. Not just to get people into work from welfare but also to compel employers to invest in training and recruitment rather than relying on immigration as a cheap fix.
totally agree with your first point and said so above (all be it less eloquently) before i saw your comment
training and recruitment of social care staff and nurses takes time and costs money - we could do that, and probably should, but then we need to be honest about tax required to fund it.
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@Dodge said in European Politics:
training and recruitment of social care staff and nurses takes time and costs money - we could do that, and probably should, but then we need to be honest about tax required to fund it.
Not sure the training and recruitment bit is just about nurses or the public sector (I was thinking about HGV driver training which dropped off a cliff when Eastern European countries joined the EU)
Agree on the need to be honest about tax and public services - but that includes VFM and productivity.
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@MajorRage said in European Politics:
@Dodge sorry where do we disagree?
I agree with all your points, although I’m convinced that immigration policies contributed more to it than you are. Yes, there will be yobs but I’ll put them lower than 90%.
Apologies, I may have misread your post - I thought you were suggesting that those comments should have made sympathetic mention of the supposed underlying motivation. I don’t think they should have done
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Western governments and their accompanying institutions, the education system and even the fuckin police, have been successfully infiltrated by left wokeism to varying degrees, such that any push back is now universally decried by the establishment as racist or suchlike.
It's pathetic.
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@Dodge said in European Politics:
Immigration is definitely causing issues in the public psyche - I’m not entirely sure what the solution is
Yes, but this is such a vague, wide-ranging term that it is entirely unclear what it is about "immigration" that causes people concern and what parts of its people want to be stopped.
For example, @MajorRage and @Victor-Meldrew are both immigrants to the UK. I am now and have been previously an immigrant to two non-UK countries. I don't think anyone in the UK or Ireland would really have an issue with "people like us" immigrating to their countries.
On the other hand, my wife and her family were immigrants (stateless refugees in fact) to the UK from just the sort of place where people would likely say "absolutely not" to anyone wanting to come in now. They are all doctors and lawyers etc and are so are all their immigrant friends from the same place. They are collectively some of the most successful people I've ever met in my life and are a real credit to themselves, where they come from and all to the UK who took them in and where they were able to achieve those things - and they have clearly contributed to UK society in that regard.
Now, I appreciated that me, my wife, her friends and family, @MajorRage and @Victor-Meldrew are not like every immigrant everywhere in the world - hell, we may even be the exceptions. While I have real sympathy for indigenous people everywhere - including in Europe - to want to have autonomy over their homelands, "immigration" to some extent is normal and necessary at every time and everywhere.
I guess the point is that using blanket terms like "immigration" is totally unhelpful - from politicians, media, pro- and anti-immigration types. It's like expressing concerns about "illness" or "disease", knowing that there are myriad types of illness and disease each presenting their own issues and solutions.
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@reprobate said in European Politics:
It's not a pushback against immigration, it's not debate, it's rioting and looting. "For Ireland" apparently.
I'm not talking about the riots.
I meant speaking our against sacred cows of the woke movement.Doing so, automatically gets you labelled a racist or sexist or homophobic or transphobic.
Fuckin insidious type of thinking because it and its followers are concerned with social labelling first and foremost.
And people, in general, bow to it because not doing so leads you to being cancelled, socially ostracized, and possibly losing your job. Most people just want to go along to get along and therefore little by little this retarded worldview takes hold.
I don't condone the rioting, although I will note how funny the BLM riots, looting and straight-out violence (on a far, far, far larger scale) were described as peaceful protests until the damage got so bad it had to be called otherwise. Also interesting that these Irish looters were "swiftly brought to justice". Can't say the same happened to the BLM rioters. Wonder why???
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@Dodge said in European Politics:
Immigration is definitely causing issues in the public psyche - I’m not entirely sure what the solution is
Other countries, for example in Asia, India and the Middle East, have very restrictive immigration laws. No one bats an eyelid. Not saying these are good or bad, but it is interesting that they reject the "melting pot" idea.
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@junior said in European Politics:
While I have real sympathy for indigenous people everywhere - including in Europe - to want to have autonomy over their homelands, "immigration" to some extent is normal and necessary at every time and everywhere.
What is new, though, is immigration and "multiculturalism" being seen as a a policy objective, a good thing in itself and the divide in European society between those who benefit from immigration and those who perceive themselves negatively impacted by it. Add in acceptance of separate and insular communities, the dismissal of any concerns of the latter as the rantings of bigots and the "evil Far Right" and you have the makings of a powder-keg.
Pursue that policy for 20 years with 1 in 5 of the population being born outside the country and you risk ending up like Sweden - transformed into one of the most violent countries in Europe with huge social problems.
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@Dodge said in European Politics:
Immigration is definitely causing issues in the public psyche - I’m not entirely sure what the solution is
Admitting there might be a problem to be addressed would be a good start. Far too many politicians and commentators see it thru a very narrow lens.
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@junior said in European Politics:
@Dodge said in European Politics:
Immigration is definitely causing issues in the public psyche - I’m not entirely sure what the solution is
Yes, but this is such a vague, wide-ranging term that it is entirely unclear what it is about "immigration" that causes people concern and what parts of its people want to be stopped.
For example, @MajorRage and @Victor-Meldrew are both immigrants to the UK. I am now and have been previously an immigrant to two non-UK countries. I don't think anyone in the UK or Ireland would really have an issue with "people like us" immigrating to their countries.
On the other hand, my wife and her family were immigrants (stateless refugees in fact) to the UK from just the sort of place where people would likely say "absolutely not" to anyone wanting to come in now. They are all doctors and lawyers etc and are so are all their immigrant friends from the same place. They are collectively some of the most successful people I've ever met in my life and are a real credit to themselves, where they come from and all to the UK who took them in and where they were able to achieve those things - and they have clearly contributed to UK society in that regard.
Now, I appreciated that me, my wife, her friends and family, @MajorRage and @Victor-Meldrew are not like every immigrant everywhere in the world - hell, we may even be the exceptions. While I have real sympathy for indigenous people everywhere - including in Europe - to want to have autonomy over their homelands, "immigration" to some extent is normal and necessary at every time and everywhere.
I guess the point is that using blanket terms like "immigration" is totally unhelpful - from politicians, media, pro- and anti-immigration types. It's like expressing concerns about "illness" or "disease", knowing that there are myriad types of illness and disease each presenting their own issues and solutions.
Agree completely, economically, immigration in a western country with less than replacement rate birth rate is a necessity. Japan is struggling with not having / allowing immigration for this reason.
IMO the problem starts to arise when the immigrant population that arrives a. Has an entirely different culture than the indigenous population and b. moves into one area and only socialises within that ‘homeland’ culture. That terrible word ‘integration’ has some merit.
It is also more obviously an issue when public services don’t keep up with the additional demand / fail for other reasons like budget cuts.
The fact is, if immigration is necessary then politicians should be honest about it. They should also be honest enough to realise that if you import people from Aus or NZ then culturally we’re pretty similar, if you do it from Pakistan you’re making it easier for populists to play on people’s fears and sense of grievance.
The economics and the politics do not always therefore line up and that’s where the challenge for the politicians arises.
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@Dodge said in European Politics:
@MajorRage said in European Politics:
@Dodge sorry where do we disagree?
I agree with all your points, although I’m convinced that immigration policies contributed more to it than you are. Yes, there will be yobs but I’ll put them lower than 90%.
Apologies, I may have misread your post - I thought you were suggesting that those comments should have made sympathetic mention of the supposed underlying motivation. I don’t think they should have done
Ok, I can see how you got that, but yes not my point.
It was more that they were very exclusionary which just adds fuel to the flames. I'm no expert on Irish politics, but I do know that the Irish are arguably the most proud & nationalistic nation on earth. As alluded to on other threads, doesn't matter how long you live in Ireland, if you aren't Irish, you are never quite accepted as one.
Given the above, basically telling Irish people they aren't doing Irish things / Irish behaviour seems a bit inflammatory to me.
Not sure if I'm making any sense.
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@Dodge said in European Politics:
@junior said in European Politics:
@Dodge said in European Politics:
Immigration is definitely causing issues in the public psyche - I’m not entirely sure what the solution is
Yes, but this is such a vague, wide-ranging term that it is entirely unclear what it is about "immigration" that causes people concern and what parts of its people want to be stopped.
For example, @MajorRage and @Victor-Meldrew are both immigrants to the UK. I am now and have been previously an immigrant to two non-UK countries. I don't think anyone in the UK or Ireland would really have an issue with "people like us" immigrating to their countries.
On the other hand, my wife and her family were immigrants (stateless refugees in fact) to the UK from just the sort of place where people would likely say "absolutely not" to anyone wanting to come in now. They are all doctors and lawyers etc and are so are all their immigrant friends from the same place. They are collectively some of the most successful people I've ever met in my life and are a real credit to themselves, where they come from and all to the UK who took them in and where they were able to achieve those things - and they have clearly contributed to UK society in that regard.
Now, I appreciated that me, my wife, her friends and family, @MajorRage and @Victor-Meldrew are not like every immigrant everywhere in the world - hell, we may even be the exceptions. While I have real sympathy for indigenous people everywhere - including in Europe - to want to have autonomy over their homelands, "immigration" to some extent is normal and necessary at every time and everywhere.
I guess the point is that using blanket terms like "immigration" is totally unhelpful - from politicians, media, pro- and anti-immigration types. It's like expressing concerns about "illness" or "disease", knowing that there are myriad types of illness and disease each presenting their own issues and solutions.
Agree completely, economically, immigration in a western country with less than replacement rate birth rate is a necessity. Japan is struggling with not having / allowing immigration for this reason.
IMO the problem starts to arise when the immigrant population that arrives a. Has an entirely different culture than the indigenous population and b. moves into one area and only socialises within that ‘homeland’ culture. That terrible word ‘integration’ has some merit.
It is also more obviously an issue when public services don’t keep up with the additional demand / fail for other reasons like budget cuts.
The fact is, if immigration is necessary then politicians should be honest about it. They should also be honest enough to realise that if you import people from Aus or NZ then culturally we’re pretty similar, if you do it from Pakistan you’re making it easier for populists to play on people’s fears and sense of grievance.
The economics and the politics do not always therefore line up and that’s where the challenge for the politicians arises.
Japan is struggling-ish true, but equally doesn't have a ridiculous housing bubble from constantly importing people without updating infrastructure, or a disgruntled population of working class voters who get pushed ever closer to the margins by governments that are prepared to import cheap labor to help companies stay profitable at the expense of a comfortable living for locals.
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Complex topic, and I’m way too drunk to approach it in any comprehensive way.
But fuck, it’s the Fern!
My take on the Australian experience is that it has absolutely been immigration for the sake of growth, to the benefit of nobody other than home owners.
There is such limited integration here in Sydney (the Chinese aside), it’s just created massively isolated communities, entire areas of single ethnic entities out west. Places like Lakemba, Punchbowl, you just wouldnt recognise them as “Australian “
And are they really?
At some point you have to ask why we continue down this road - eroding culture simply to prop up housing prices and the employment rate - does it still make sense?
Do the immigrants we take on add value to our society? Are they going to buy-in to what we believe in, or rally against it?
Some serious questions we need to answer
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@Dodge said in European Politics:
Pretty much agree with everything you wrote except this:
"They should also be honest enough to realise that if you import people from Aus or NZ then culturally we’re pretty similar, if you do it from Pakistan you’re making it easier for populists to play on people’s fears and sense of grievance."
Not too sure it's just about "populists" playing on people's fears. The grooming gangs scandal and cover-up was solely down to the establishment - councils, police, Home Office - putting sensitivity towards immigrants over enforcing criminal law
Trevor Philips makes the very good point that indigenous Brits need to try harder to understand what it's like to be an immigrant in the UK. Fair enough, but the flip side is immigrants also need to try harder to understand the indigenous population. It's a two-way street.
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I find the irony of the Irish of all people complaining about immigration to be pretty funny