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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
There would be very few people who would be remotely forgiving of 8-6 no matter who had been selected.
My point was it could easily have been 8-6 - that was how badly they played for much of the year.
And if we continue to play like that, and with the current approach, there'll be even more losses
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
Victor reckons Razor can lose and people would be happy with that if he'd picked the Baby Blacks
Not what I remotely said.
Which was that many people would have been happy with 10-4 (or even 8-6) if there was evidence of a new, fresh approach, more on-field smarts and player development.
Instead we've had a reliance on retiring players and an almost bizarre fetish to bring Mo'unga back by changing the rules. Would have been OK if we played well but we didn't - we went to pieces more often than not.
I really hope he kicks on next year, but the jury is pretty much out ATM.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
I don't think your 8-6 comment is even remotely true.
We could have easily lost Bled 1 and any of the Tests against England. 8-6 (or worse) is/was entirely realistic.
If Razor had picked some young guys and lost another couple of games he would have been "a fucking idiot who picked the wrong young guys".
On the other hand he could have said "I'm going to develop a new team and try new things but there will be some bumps along the way, but bear with me" and he would have had an attentive audience.
But he didn't. He went for the wins with too many past-it players, didn't succeed at that strategy (his record is worse than Foster's FFS) and has, I suspect, wasted much of his first 12 months
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2024:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2024:
It's more his intransigence and apparent lack of coaching nous that concerns me.
That is what has really surprised me.
Always thought he'd struggle initially (despite his fluffers claiming there was no difference in SR Test coaching) and take a few Tests to come right, but the continuing inconsistency and lack of player development together with his hankering for mediocre overseas players - at the end of the season - has been really unexpected.
His reputation for being a players' coach, and an innovator have not been apparent. Yet. Watched Scott Hansen on Aotearoa Rugby Pod last night. Boy he spouts some shit when you actually listen. It's all layers, and shit
I hope that off-season he or someone at NZR takes a good long look at things to see what the real problems are, Someone experienced and from outside like Cotter would provide some good honest input and support.
Another year like this one would be a real waste
This is key, he hasn't grown the squad, but also hasn't won enough with the experience he kept - worst of both worlds
NZH year review article
10-4 could easily have been 8-6. Livable-with if he'd been clearly developing new players. But he hasn't.
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2024:
It's more his intransigence and apparent lack of coaching nous that concerns me.
That is what has really surprised me.
Always thought he'd struggle initially (despite his fluffers claiming there was no difference in SR Test coaching) and take a few Tests to come right, but the continuing inconsistency and lack of player development together with his hankering for mediocre overseas players - at the end of the season - has been really unexpected.
His reputation for being a players' coach, and an innovator have not been apparent. Yet. Watched Scott Hansen on Aotearoa Rugby Pod last night. Boy he spouts some shit when you actually listen. It's all layers, and shit
I hope that off-season he or someone at NZR takes a good long look at things to see what the real problems are, Someone experienced and from outside like Cotter would provide some good honest input and support.
Another year like this one would be a real waste
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2024:
I do find it amusing, highlighted by Parsons and Hall on the ARP, that some commentators mention that the record could have been better but for the close loses, and fail to acknowledge the close wins (Eng x 3, Aust) that could have went the other way. Fine margins.
Glass half full guys
Mind you, everyone's gonna stand up for him when they made him out to be the best thing since sliced bread during the Fozzie reign.
Fozzie just had to breathe and the media and public (especially Cantabs) were out to get him.
Harsh generalisation. I welcomed him, as did a number of others. But he has not lived up to his promise so far, and deserves to be put on notice with a no holds barred end of season performance review
Yeah and guys like yourself have called him out on his shortcomings, unlike a lot of his followers who just defend everything he does because it's him.
Ah yes, the
Port HillsSumner Rugby Club MassiveFIFY
It did occur to me to change it. But it's more of a red n black army thing I guess? Thanks for the edit 😁
It always made me chuckle when his fluffers pointed to his success with the Sumner U13's as proof of his international coaching credentials....
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2024:
It's more his intransigence and apparent lack of coaching nous that concerns me.
That is what has really surprised me.
Always thought he'd struggle initially (despite his fluffers claiming there was no difference in SR Test coaching) and take a few Tests to come right, but the continuing inconsistency and lack of player development together with his hankering for mediocre overseas players - at the end of the season - has been really unexpected.
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2024:
I do find it amusing, highlighted by Parsons and Hall on the ARP, that some commentators mention that the record could have been better but for the close loses, and fail to acknowledge the close wins (Eng x 3, Aust) that could have went the other way. Fine margins.
Glass half full guys
Mind you, everyone's gonna stand up for him when they made him out to be the best thing since sliced bread during the Fozzie reign.
Fozzie just had to breathe and the media and public (especially Cantabs) were out to get him.
Harsh generalisation. I welcomed him, as did a number of others. But he has not lived up to his promise so far, and deserves to be put on notice with a no holds barred end of season performance review
Yeah and guys like yourself have called him out on his shortcomings, unlike a lot of his followers who just defend everything he does because it's him.
Ah yes, the
Port HillsSumner Rugby Club Massive
FIFY
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet It sounds like you haven't been following NZ Rugby all that long and so have not had to endure mediocrity before.
It's not apathy or defeatism to accept that some of the traditional advantages we had over other nations have been lost due to the game going professional. As our national sport we were more 'professional' than other countries. We paid attention to things like nutrition training etc more than others. We worked on skills for all 15 players not just the fancy dan backs.
These advantages have gone and are unlikely to return. We can't expect to be fitter, faster, stronger than our opponents. NH props no longer carry beer kegs around with them as they lumber from set piece to set piece. Our opponents are also as skilled in the main as we are. Through more exposure to our players and coaches the bar has been raised.
This is nothing new. Aussie improved dramatically once their players got constant game experience against ours. Look at Argentina since joining the RC.
Meanwhile the game in NZ has stagnated. We are not getting exposure below test level to different playing styles. Our coaching has lost its edge. We exported a lot of IP yet we seem to think (institutionally) that we can learn nothing from overseas.
Yet none of this in unprecedented our unable to improve very quickly. The 70's were the worst years of AB results in my lifetime. We were shockingly poor all too often. Yet once we got the right coach and drafted in some young blood to the team we went from packing down 3 man scrums because were were so poor to Grand Slam winners in just over 12 months.
Sound familiar?
Keep the faith.
Funny how things come around. My dad remembers the star studded B&I Lions tour of 1971, where they showed us how to play champagne running rugby. Historically we were 10 man exponents.
I feel we have made strides, and there is a lot of young talent coming through. But Razor has to get out of his own way and stop focussing on trivialities like pining for overseas players and such
TBH, I think that's a slight historical myth, Fred Allen's 1960s ABs were exponents of running rugby.
On Razor, yeah, I'm the same, I'm not writing him off after this year, but I'm still criticising him for what I see as poor decisions most especially Sotutu and his wanking on about overseas players just to get an overrated 10 back.
I'll make a note to have a stern word with CF Sr the next time I see him, and correct him ! 😁. In his defence, perhaps I misunderstood. But I remember him telling me how they had very good backs on that tour
SJ Sr told me the same thing. They certainly won over the NZ rugby public at the time.
Great, great team - on and off the field. Made loads of friends.
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
Funny how things come around. My dad remembers the star studded B&I Lions tour of 1971, where they showed us how to play champagne running rugby. Historically we were 10 man exponents.
We had very much moved away from a 10 man game under Fred Allen. When we lost a few games, some NZ coaches wanted to go back to 10 man rugby while others like Bill Freeman and Eric Watson were already playing Lions-style rugby and wanted to move forward.
We were shit until the old guard lost the argument.
Great analysis.
The '70's were an awful, awful time which makes these last 4 or 5 years look like a golden age. It took years until the penny dropped. That said, the 3-man scrum was devised by the new blood and was arguably a turning point - it showed someone was sitting down and doing some smart, original, innovative thinking.
Where are the leaders and coaches able to do that today?
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
One area I've been disappointed this year is the quality of our passing - all across the team.
It's really poor.
I believe Strawbridge was around in 2023 as the skills coach
Who is that now?
You'd think the guys would know how to pass though?
To me it's related to tight forwards constantly polluting backline movies.
TBF, the tight forwards looked way more inventive in the midfield than the actual midfield.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
We're very close to the equal of any side at the moment but we're just not quite getting over the line.
Because we too often get ourselves into good positions and blow it thru periods of poor play
There isn't a gulf to cross.
Not in terms of players, but I think there is in terms of on-field smarts.
@Bones said in All Blacks 2024:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
as we saw when Robertson's selections were forced by injury
We don't really know that. Perhaps they would've learned more playing alongside better players that help them to excel?
Havili and Proctor looked a good bet.
@kpkanz said in All Blacks 2024:
Experience is not fungible/equal.
Take your point, but experience is bloody important. I'm sure Sititi, Roigard, Ratima, Lakai etc, learnt a lot from Cane and TJP - as we saw when Robertson's selections were forced by injury. Credit where credit's due that they were able to shine.
That said, Robertson sticking with the likes of Havili, BB & ALB while hardly playing Proctor, Plummer et al is unfathomable bollocks.
@sparky said in All Blacks 2024:
@DMX Yes, the forwards are the best they've been since 2015, but the backs the worst they've been for a long time.
Maybe the forwards are the result of continuity in coaching? That forwards like Vaa'i and Williams have kicked on and Sititi has slotted in so well looks to be the result of a coach who's been thru some up and downs but is now comfortable in his role.
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
Given the loss of Whitelock, Retallick, Smith and Mo'unga I thought the year was ok
Ironically, the two positions where we didn't drop off were lock and 9 - and I'd argue we're in a better position at 9 overall without Christie.
@frugby said in Italy v All Blacks:
At the end of the day, this test means nothing, and regardless of what happens from here, is one nobody will remember.
In may ways you're right.
There's been so many shit-fests like this recently, people have problems remembering them all
This is getting bloody ridiculous. How many chances have we screwed up?
