The Silver Fern

We'd have rather got Marsh than Head I reckon

It's the hope that kills you.... just like the RWC Final

@Chris said in Black Caps v Australia:

Southee should be done,very ineffective as an opening bowler he just is wasting the new ball.
He has been good for NZ but you have to know when to go like Wagner ,I admired his decision if Southee carries on he will ruin his earlier performances.
It would be sad to see if he is only remembered for what he is producing now.

Wagner retired after he was told he wouldn't be selected though...issue is its unlikely someone is telling the captain that....

@MiketheSnow said in Rugby World Cup general discussion:

@Dodge said in Rugby World Cup general discussion:

Well this is a perfect fucking summary of what happened in this tournament. Flats is a top journalist / pundit. I hated thinking he was right the first time I saw this, I wanted France or Ireland to go all the way (I never thought we had a chance), but fuck me the simplicity of this message is perfect

Hopefully by the next RWC cycle Pougach will be fucking put out to pasture and Flats will be running the show

He's brilliant

And funny as fuck too

If you have a chance to see him live, do it

I discovered Flatman during this world cup by listening to his podcast with Tom Shanklin. You're right, he's absolutely brilliant, most talented pundit I've come across in rugby for ages. What a breath of fresh air for a game that is becoming increasingly tedious and frustrating to follow.

Appropriate that we are now talking about criminality/diversion in the RWC Final thread because WE WUZ ROBBED!!!!

@Rancid-Schnitzel said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:

@No-Quarter said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:

@TeWaio completely agree, especially when it comes to cards, refs have been extremely harsh on the ABs while overlooking stuff from the opposition in the same game. It's an ongoing thing - SBs card was such a good example of that - a YC for batting the ball away in his own half? What the fuck? Not a chance another team cops a YC for that. Frizell's YC another great example - how in the hell did they find a card there?! And then in the discussion over whether it should be a red, Barnes said something along the lines of "the YC stays as it was incidental after the cleanout". So basically said, we've reviewed it, and we'll keep it a YC because he got pushed onto someone's leg. That alone was an absolutely outrageous call.

We are the most carded team. Cards make it extremely difficult to win. At least half the cards we get appear to be complete horseshit, and not in line with how other teams are carded.

Is this a conspiracy against the ABs? Not a chance, but there does appear to be a bias against us at the moment. Maybe it's the black?

What @Dodge says is the most important point though. If they are not consistent then some teams will prosper from that, while other teams will get screwed in the biggest games of their lives. That's inevitable with the current application of the laws and brings the game into disrepute.

Ironically I think it's because we Kiwis may stamp our feet and drop the bottom lip but we're completely harmless while other nations raise holy hell and that has an impact. I just look back to that Lions decision. Holy fark the world would have exploded if that had been the other way round. Same with 2007. You reckon Barnes would ever been able to step foot in SA if they'd been on the receiving end of that one?

Kind of reminds me of the attitude of a French minister to NZ protests over nuclear testing in pacific. I paraphrase, but it was essentially: "We can live for 6 months without being liked by New Zealanders".

In truth nobody gives a shit what we think, even in a sport we've often dominated.

This is bang on. We are, as a nation, "nice". Are we too nice? I'd argue no - I've lived abroad for my entire adult life and enjoyed the fact that kiwis are generally liked and well though of everywhere. It is fantastic. If it means we get the short end of the stick around rugby decisions, I'm happy with that. Others might disagree.

@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:

@TeWaio said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:

@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:

@TeWaio said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:

Call me a chippy kiwi, one-eyed, sore loser etc, but it really winds me up that we seems to be constantly on the wrong side of some really dubious referring decisions over the years.

Yes, we are the most carded international team, but (hear me out) might that be because we are just subconsciously looked at differently than other sides? Don't know why, maybe because we dominated 2004-2017?

Off the top of my head, in rough chronological ordrer:

• Poite's "deal" to decide the 2017 Lions, exact replica of the (correct) call Joubert was pilloried for in the 2015 RWC QF Scot vs Aus. Poite rules it correctly, then has an off-mike conversation with Garces, IN FRENCH, then downgrades the penalty to scrum, presumably to be less controversial. Wtf?

• Lions Test 2, after playing most of the game with 14 we lost it to a penalty at the death, where Sinckler jumped into a tackle to collect an errant pass, and we got penalized. Never seen that before or since in a rugby game. I think there's now a rule that awards a free kick to the defending side if the attacker attempts to jump clean over NFL-style?

• Jordie Barrett's red card vs Aus, where he jumped high to catch a kick and someone just ran into his foot. Not seen that before or since either?

• The stitch up last year vs the Irish, Ta'avo gets done for a red, but a near-identical shot from Porter on Rettalick gets let off with "absorbing soak tackle" - never heard that language before or since!

• Aki high shot vs the Irish not looked at.

• Scott Barrett's yellow against Argentina. Stupid move, but would a ref really card any other team that deep in opposition territory?

• The Final: EDG forearm to the face, not looked at. Etzebeth leading forearm to Cane's head, not looked at despite right in front of the ref. Frizzell carded for being cleaned out onto a random leg he wouldn't have even seen.

• Cane's upgraded to red, harsh for me given Kriel changed direction so suddenly, but fair enough. So what's good for the goose is good for the gander when Kolisi lines up Ardie from 10m back and smokes him head-to-head. Nope, stays yellow. Bad luck guys, 4 more years.

Thank you for indulging me, rant over.

Are you the most carded team in the world or have you just decided you are? England have given away loads of cards in the last 12 months but i don't know what the stats show.

Also, going back to 2017 and that's the best list you can come up with to demonstrate subconscious bias?! I could find as many decisions that went against England this year - but it still wouldn't demonstrate unconscious bias, it would just show that a. referees make mistakes, b. i like to see incidents through rose tinted specs, c. i was only looking at one side of the equation.

Anyway, i understand the frustration with individual decisions, I felt the same about some in the semi. I even understand the 'what if' feeling and the devastation of losing a final against the Boks who I don't like. I just think saying the ref was the reason you lost is a bit silly, saying refs hate you is a bit silly, saying that it definitely would have been different result if one ot two decisions had gone the other way, is a bit silly.

As you were.

I didn't say any of those three things though?

I pointed out a load of really rough decisions we've copped over the past few years, of course I am absolutely biased, and it was mostly cathartic. Plenty of those decisions seem literally exceptional, maybe I don't watch enough rugby outside of the ABs though.

apologies, my first bit was an answer to you, the rest was more of a generic response to some points made above in the thread, lazy of me not to distinguish.

Ah understood, thanks. I take your point that other teams might be able to come up with a similar list of harsh decisions. My list was more the fact that so many of ours seem pretty unprecedented (at least to me). "Soak tackle" - get in the bin.

@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:

@TeWaio said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:

Call me a chippy kiwi, one-eyed, sore loser etc, but it really winds me up that we seems to be constantly on the wrong side of some really dubious referring decisions over the years.

Yes, we are the most carded international team, but (hear me out) might that be because we are just subconsciously looked at differently than other sides? Don't know why, maybe because we dominated 2004-2017?

Off the top of my head, in rough chronological ordrer:

• Poite's "deal" to decide the 2017 Lions, exact replica of the (correct) call Joubert was pilloried for in the 2015 RWC QF Scot vs Aus. Poite rules it correctly, then has an off-mike conversation with Garces, IN FRENCH, then downgrades the penalty to scrum, presumably to be less controversial. Wtf?

• Lions Test 2, after playing most of the game with 14 we lost it to a penalty at the death, where Sinckler jumped into a tackle to collect an errant pass, and we got penalized. Never seen that before or since in a rugby game. I think there's now a rule that awards a free kick to the defending side if the attacker attempts to jump clean over NFL-style?

• Jordie Barrett's red card vs Aus, where he jumped high to catch a kick and someone just ran into his foot. Not seen that before or since either?

• The stitch up last year vs the Irish, Ta'avo gets done for a red, but a near-identical shot from Porter on Rettalick gets let off with "absorbing soak tackle" - never heard that language before or since!

• Aki high shot vs the Irish not looked at.

• Scott Barrett's yellow against Argentina. Stupid move, but would a ref really card any other team that deep in opposition territory?

• The Final: EDG forearm to the face, not looked at. Etzebeth leading forearm to Cane's head, not looked at despite right in front of the ref. Frizzell carded for being cleaned out onto a random leg he wouldn't have even seen.

• Cane's upgraded to red, harsh for me given Kriel changed direction so suddenly, but fair enough. So what's good for the goose is good for the gander when Kolisi lines up Ardie from 10m back and smokes him head-to-head. Nope, stays yellow. Bad luck guys, 4 more years.

Thank you for indulging me, rant over.

Are you the most carded team in the world or have you just decided you are? England have given away loads of cards in the last 12 months but i don't know what the stats show.

Also, going back to 2017 and that's the best list you can come up with to demonstrate subconscious bias?! I could find as many decisions that went against England this year - but it still wouldn't demonstrate unconscious bias, it would just show that a. referees make mistakes, b. i like to see incidents through rose tinted specs, c. i was only looking at one side of the equation.

Anyway, i understand the frustration with individual decisions, I felt the same about some in the semi. I even understand the 'what if' feeling and the devastation of losing a final against the Boks who I don't like. I just think saying the ref was the reason you lost is a bit silly, saying refs hate you is a bit silly, saying that it definitely would have been different result if one ot two decisions had gone the other way, is a bit silly.

As you were.

I didn't say any of those three things though?

I pointed out a load of really rough decisions we've copped over the past few years, of course I am absolutely biased, and it was mostly cathartic. However, plenty of those decisions seem literally exceptional - maybe I don't watch enough rugby outside of the ABs for context though.

Call me a chippy kiwi, one-eyed, sore loser etc, but it really winds me up that we seem to be constantly on the wrong side of some really dubious refereeing decisions over the years.

Yes, we are the most carded international team, but (hear me out) might that be because we are just subconsciously looked at differently than other sides? Don't know why, maybe because we dominated 2004-2017?

Off the top of my head, in rough chronological ordrer:

• Poite's "deal" to decide the 2017 Lions, exact replica of the (correct) call Joubert was pilloried for in the 2015 RWC QF Scot vs Aus. Poite rules it correctly, then has an off-mike conversation with Garces, IN FRENCH, then downgrades the penalty to scrum, presumably to be less controversial. Wtf?

• Lions Test 2, after playing most of the game with 14 we lost it to a penalty at the death, where Sinckler jumped into a tackle to collect an errant pass, and we got penalized. Never seen that before or since in a rugby game. I think there's now a rule that awards a free kick to the defending side if the attacker attempts to jump clean over NFL-style?

• Jordie Barrett's red card vs Aus, where he jumped high to catch a kick and someone just ran into his foot. Not seen that before or since either?

• The stitch up last year vs the Irish, Ta'avo gets done for a red, but a near-identical shot from Porter on Rettalick gets let off with "absorbing soak tackle" - never heard that language before or since!

• Aki high shot vs the Irish not looked at.

• Scott Barrett's yellow against Argentina for batting the ball from the halfback's hands. Stupid move, but would a ref really card any other team that deep in opposition territory?

• The Final: EDG forearm to the face, not looked at. Etzebeth leading forearm to Cane's head, not looked at despite right in front of the ref. Frizzell carded for being cleaned out onto a random leg he wouldn't have even seen.

• Cane's upgraded to red, harsh for me given Kriel changed direction so suddenly, but fair enough under the current protocols. So what's good for the goose is good for the gander when Kolisi lines up Ardie from 10m back and smokes him head-to-head. Nope, stays yellow. Bad luck guys, 4 more years.

Thank you for indulging me, rant over.

I picked 45-6 for the Argentina match and was out by 1 point....would it be a bit too bold to pick the same score again?

I think undefeated in calendar year 2013 was probably our best achievement, esp given the way it ended with that last gasp try against Ireland

No chance that's real. Whoever is that good a mate of Cane's he'd speak so freely, would NEVER screenshot and share it.

@Dodge Disagree, the laws are complicated enough. Just scrap it all, and use the existing knock on rules. Don't want your passes disrupted? Throw better passes.

Question: if we win the RWC, will Foster get knighted like Hansen and Henry?

One thing that would be a great improvement is automating the offside line policing with cameras and AI. So the refs aren't directly involved, just get a word in their ear, and can focus on other things.

At the moment, the constant 0.5m offsides make for a shit spectacle, and it's only ever randomly policed.

Extrapolating the selection logic here, why not just take 33 wingers, then we'll score load of tries?

We are lucky not to be 3-4 tries down

What a shambles

Off for lunch at 1.25pm, despite it being forecast to rain from 2pm-4pm, which it now is. Honestly, I love test cricket, but it does itself no favours...

24 overs session 1, 23 overs session 2

ok i'll stop now...