The Silver Fern

@pakman
I agree with Sid. He had the better of all his opposites.

For you young types he was a bit like Aaron Smith (with zero yap!). Never seen a better ball runner. Quick, low centre of gravity, and very strong. I sometimes wonder how olden time players would go in the modern game. Have absolutely no doubt Going would be a sensation.

Halfbacks are nearly always the best natural players on any team. They have to be, they are the smallest. Going was a natural, could have given a good account in any position. Played fullback for NZ once, and was an occasional goal kicker. And he could hit in the tackle.

As for Going verse Edwards.

I remember the ’71 tour. I think it was the first ever live TV test series in NZ.

Going played six times against the Lions, and five times against Edwards. At one point they faced each other twice in one week.

Thought the ABs edged the series even tho they lost. Drawn series probably a fair result.

Lost the first test cos Fergie couldn’t kick straight.

Dominated the second—awesome all time great Kirkpatrick try, run in from half way. Kirkpatrick and Going had great combo. A Going snipe and offload to Kirkpatrick—classic.

Definitely lost 3rd test. Sir Brian came out of retirement—nah. And the Lions scrambled a draw in the fourth.

But maybe the best game of the whole tour tho, was the week before the fourth test. Versus NA in Whangarei.

The 70’s were the great days for the Taniwha. Awesome team. They ran on to field back then super confident they could beat anyone.

The Lions fielded pretty much the same team that ran on in the Fourth a week later.

From what I recall of the game, it was “rugged.” NA dominated for stretches, the Lions held on, steadied, and finished with a try late. Probably the superior touring team fitness telling.

Of the players; I can recall David Duckham scoring at a crucial point, a bit against the run of play; and a great tackle by JPR Williams on Brian Going when he was sure to score. Williams was one of the best front on tacklers I ever saw. Perfect technique.

Of the others; I have zero recollection of Edwards, the “greatest,” or of Barry John, or any of the others.

After the the game John Dawes (Lions capt.) made the comment that this was the only game on tour that he became anxious about stopping the opposition.

I checked the Taniwha line-up for the game;

six ABs (C&F); Sid and Ken Going, Joe Morgan, Murray Jones, Richie Guy, Bevan Holmes;

two AB reserves (so would have been ABs now days), Dennis Panther and Frank Colthurst;

an AB Junior, Zukov Marinkovic;

two AB trialists Rod Jones (brother of Murray) and Les Bradley;

two Maori ABs (Laly Haddon and Brian Going), Haddon was a Jonah type, could play wing and No 8;

with Jim Kirtlan and Craig Poynter, locking.

Great great team! And a great coach, Ted Griffin, 25 years in charge.

It’s for another thread, but that lineup is probably a reason why we are not engaged with top class NZ domestic rugby any more.

In the pro era I would say the majority of the above players are not even in NZ.

That was the amateur days, star players everywhere!

There must be five or 600 top class NZ players plying their trade OS now. In olden times they were all still here.

Never happen now, but imagine the standard of the local competition if they were.

@MiketheSnow

Nah

what you do is send the yellow card player off,
BUT THEN, when the team with the man advantage scores (or the ten minutes expire - which ever comes first) thats the end of the card.
both teams back to equal . . . so simple to administer

should be the same for red cards
the only difference being then, is that the red carded player doesn't come back, a different player does

commensense

Yeah. Dunno why they are not giving Gregory a run at 12. Especially when the incumbents are not really showing anything. I laughed when I saw the replay of the try where Laumape ran straight up the middle of the field untouched. It's a different camera angle, Laumape in the foreground, and if you look in the background you can see Johnson and Tua having a "discussion". Haha. What a f...ing shambles. This is starting to reflect badly on Witcombe and Konia. Defence is all about attitude and organisation, coaches can have a big influence on that. Seasons gone, move Gregory to 12. If he's guna make the big time, it'll be in that position. And I'm guna say it.... he even reminds me a bit of Joe Morgan. And jeez my second team is going good, just watched them demolish Counties. They've superceded Canterbury in the Crusaders franchise, incredible, imagine if Northland did that to Auckland.

@gt12
Yes
in the amateur days Auck, Well, Cant poached players from the country provs.
And Otago had the Varsity PE faculty. Otago University club produced a huge number of All Blacks.
Not saying its the way to go, but amateur rugby was pretty good!

wow
how the fuck did that happen!
best nz cricket result ever!

watched the whole series
the indians got caught on a "sticky wicket" in the first
in the 2nd and 3rd india went for spinning wickets
it backfired spectacularly on them
hard to believe it, but the spinning wickets actually suited us better than them

astronomical
And remember this. It was the PUs that actually formed the NZRU in the first place. So - strong legacy ownership issues to deal with.

@Crazy-Horse
I don’t mind players getting ejected from the game.

But the way whole process works isn’t just stupid...it’s INSANE!

Firstly, it is very easy to get sent off now days, all it takes is an ever so slight miscalculation.

And then the dumb shit starts…

The game stops for five minutes. Thousands in the crowd, and many more watching TV, look at the screen.

The foul play is highlighted—some poor bastard getting smashed in the head. Watching in super slomo, high definition, from umpteen different angles, repeated repeated repeated.

What a way to promote the game! F’wits.

Then the ridiculous sanctions are imposed. Sanctions that have decided the sports last two world championships.

There are plenty of other ways to handle the process. Just look at what other sports do. And it’s very obvious they don’t do this. Officials still administering like its amateur sport, instead of what it is at the top level, the business of entertainment.

For example.

Ice hockey; a player gets sent to the box and his team is a man down. But as soon as the other team scores, he’s back into the game. Is that not a simple, sensible penalty?

As for players getting ejected from the game permanently. They have to be replaced. At the elite level, a team a man down cannot compete. With no competition the entertainment is pretty much over.

Just get another beer, chat to your mate, look at your phone…

And suspend the miscreant for life at the tribunal on Monday night!

@MiketheSnow

Always thought it was absurd to have a scrum from a not straight lineout throw.

The halfbacks put in to the resulting scrum is invariably even more crooked than the original lineout throw!

Explain the logic there...

Watched Detroit lions v packers the other day
A player got ejected

Few interesting things about how they deal with ejections in the NFL

Branch the Lions Defensive Back led with his helmet
First contact was helmet on helmet
Using the helmet as a weapon aint so tough in my book
When Chabal broke Ali Williams’ jaw into pieces in a similar play (no helmets there), now that was tough!

I thought it was an ejection straight up
It was a late hit, the other player didn’t even have the ball! (he’d fumbled it)
Initially it was just a 15 yard penalty!
Then it got interesting, the TMO came straight over the top of the referee
TMO ordered the ejection, no discussion with the referee, all took less than a minute

All the “old schools” were shocked; they all agreed it was a dirty hit, but ejection!

Branch then fingered the crowd as he went off (they didn’t show that bit, but you could hear it)
That was another 15 yard penalty

So the game day penalty for the team was 30 yards and the loss of their No. 1 DB for the rest of the game
As for the player; on Monday he got his fines; 10k+ for the hit and 10k+ for the finger
And he would have been notified of how many games suspension he’ll get if there is a repeat

That’s where it gets serious for the player, when you get suspended in the NFL you lose all your money for those games
He’s a high rated player, so you’re talking in 100s of thousands
And if keeps going “old school” he’ll then be suspended indefinitely and put on the NFL commissioners list

I’d be surprised to see him do it again, no matter how pissed he is—just cost too much money

Hmmm...yeah...a Heartland side in the far north...nah. Maybe if the Northland side was going gangbusters you might think about it, and then say nah! The only heartland expansion I can see, and a bit surprised it hasn't all ready, is a Canterbury Country team. North Canterbury that is. They would be very competitive from kick off.

Northland should look south. I'd love to see the Mahurangi club prised away from North Harbour union. Kaipara Flats, Warkworth and Omaha were part of the North Auckland union for decades. Might be wrong, but I dont think they have ever won a North Harbour title. They would be a power house in the Northland comp, give the local club scene a boost.

As for schools. Well. I went to school in Ta$man, so I always compare what goes on there with here. Ta$man; 2 boys (& 2 girls) schools, 5 high schools, 4 area schools. Similar to Northland. Nelson College has become a perennial contender for the Crusaders and South Island titles, and feeds a steady stream of players into the Mako and Super rugby. Schools rugby has definitely kicked on in Ta$man, but seems to have regressed in the North. The Moascar Cup actually bounced around in the north (and far north) for a decade. So the situation has been different. Whangarei BHS to North Harbour is a good move. Ta$man also have a combined schools team in the Crusaders comp, maybe Northland could do something similar. Combine the rest of the Whangarei schools, or the Bay of Islands schools and send them into the North Harbour comp as well.

Now for the Taniwha. Apart from 12 and 13 the raw material actually looks ok. While not dominant, the forwards look allright, set piece ok, go forward ok. But back play is dire. And fitness questionable. These are coaching and development issues to me. Witcombe and Konia cant be happy. So the real problems are off field. I think about everyone agrees on that. They need to get some humility at Northland HQ and go and have a very close look at what similar provinces are doing. The likes of Hawke's Bay, Taranaki, Bay of Plenty. Northland rank about 9th in the NPC demographics table. This suggests that Championship play-offs every season is not an unreasonable expectation.

Finally. I noticed the game broadcast on the weekend used Te Tai Tokerau name as well as Northland. Not wanting to upset anyone, but the Northland name has never had much mana for me. What do we think about an official name change? I'm pakeha, if you were wondering

Spot on kev. The young player development pathway is poor. I dont like to say it, but right now, if I was a young player showing a bit of potential, I'd try and get into another system. If you compare us to a province like Taranaki, we would have more raw material than them in the long term. But they seem to get the utmost out of their locals, and because they have a good recent record, they can bring in class players from the outside to top up the squad. This situation absolutely has to be changed. It hamstrings the NPC squad right from the kickoff.

Yeah. Player development. You would have to say that every player in the Taniwha squad would be a better player if they were in, say, the Canterbury/Crusaders system. Individual player development in Northland has been poor for decades. I grew up with the North Auckland teams of the 70's. Teams capable of beating any opposition. With a coach who had been in the position for 25 years! And with a No 9 who was the greatest sniper of all time! Nock should take note of that legacy! It's hard to look at the 12's getting a run at the moment as well, after having had sixteen seasons (consecutive) of Joe Morgan in that pos. I still watch, but it aint easy. Especially when my second team has always been Nelson/ Ta$man!!!

Hmmm. I saw lot of Edwards and Going back in the olden times, I just say this - thru out the early-mid 70's every team the ABs played had a "stop Going" plan - but the ABs never felt the need for a "stop edwards" plan

@kev

Awesome player.
Rene Ranger type.
One of the few players to walk out on the All Blacks.
Classic.
He didn’t like the vibe at an AB wider squad session down Hamilton way. I think John Hart was the coach.
Grabbed his bag and started hitching back to Whangarei.
Got picked up by a bloke who was going to Auckland, who then took home all the way home to Whangarei when he realised who he was.
Said his mum went off her head when she found out what he had done.
I think the story goes something like that.
Passed early a few years ago, in Perth I think.

@barbarian

like it
i stopped taking triathlon competition seriously when they allowed drafting in the cycle leg
could maybe take the cycling leg off the road and go mountain biking

@Bovidae
Exactly.
The Super rugby comp was thrown together quickly when the game went pro.
It was a response to other proposals that were being floated by non-establishment entities at the time.
Star players were signing with non-unions.

SR had been a pre-season comp for the Auck well and Cant PUs.
It was the first serious rugby comp due up at the beginning of the pro rugby era.
The NZ AUS & SA unions grabbed it, revamped it a bit, added the the Chiefs and Highlanders (now involving all the NZ PUs—so they backed it).
As a top class international sporting comp it had intrinsic flaws, which overtime have shown themselves.
But the national unions were now in the pro rugby business!
They definitely were not thinking long term!

In retrospect, probably a strategic mistake, but they had to do something quickly to head off the non-establishments.
If they had more time, and less outside pressure, I think things would have been done differently.
Probably would have gone with just the NPC and Currie Cup comps.
Both comps were strong, with teams with long legacies and traditions going back over a century.
Originally SA fielded Currie Cup teams in Super rugby.

An international program would have been fitted into breaks in extended NPC/Currie Cup seasons.
A more logical system than the current set up?

Now NPC rugby is a shadow, and Super rugby is not far behind.
The chance to create a world class domestic pro comp in NZ has probably gone now, for good!
It looks like Rugby will end up with a similar model to that of New Zealand Cricket—elite national pro programs, but an essentially amateur domestic system, semi pro at best, underneath it.

for those who dont know who benazzi is
he had a match winning try disallowed in WC95 semi vs SA
monsoon game, he definitely scored imo
no tmo in those days
would have meant a NZ v france final, and whole different rugby history
i wasn't concerned at the time, thought we were easily good enough to beat anyone

@MiketheSnow
totally agree
how it is done now is just stupid, like kicking someone when they are down . . . nice

the ref should actually go for the YC quicker, and get the infringing defender off the field
and when the team with the man advantage scores, the YC player should then come back on
the YC team would then be back to full strength after the score, not a man down!

net result being; because the ref goes for the YC quicker, i thnk defenders will infringe less, and the team with momentum will score quicker, speeding the whole game up

Haha.

That was like a game of rugby with someone sent off in the first minute.

@sparky

WOW
used to be totally different
even used to score winners in 80+ time!