The Silver Fern

@Wairau

I've not looked through all the comments here, but looking again at the video, Read seems to knock-on before the ball bounces off Williams.
So the decision should have been a scrum to the Lions.

That happened first, before Owens touched the ball and ALB would not have had advantage as it was infringement by an AB.

That said, it was a mess - the knock-on was missed by Peyper and Poite. The TMO was correctly asked to check it was a fair challenge (it was).

As Read said afterwards, the reason the ABs did not win was not because of that decision, it was because they failed to turn their periods of dominance into points on the board.

Overall the tour was a success for the Lions and NZ/Lions fans.
A punishing fixture list worked in the Lions favour by getting them ready for the Tests. If injuries had removed say 2-3 of the key players, then the expected 3-0 blackwash would probably have happened.

Roll on 2029!

@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:

Interesting stat

The only stats that matter:

NZ 1
Lions 1
Drawn 1

Forget Poite-gate - the ABs didn't take the game away from the Lions in the first 20 when they were on top.

@taniwharugby said in 2007 QF [split thread]:

what is this game you all speak of with such great knowledge?

Hi all

(I'm probably going to regret this, but it's late and I'm a bit drunk and the AB-Lions series is 1-1, so no time like the present ...)

I was at the '99 game and the '07 game (as I dared to mention in my first post a month ago). Sport is a weird thing at times - there have been other tours since '71 that the Lions had a good chance of winning; maybe this is going to be one of those weird times.

If if the Lions are within 4-8 points at 60 minutes, maybe there might be a certain type of throat noise ...?

I watched the game last weekend in a pub in England - there were 2 Kiwis with AB shirts. I said to them at the end "You'll win next week".

But as the week has gone on, the euphoric optimism of sport has made me think it is a 60/40 game in favour of the ABs.
But that is close in a contact sport with an odd-shaped ball.
Maybe, just maybe ...

Yet another AB centre pairing ...
A French ref ...
A winner-takes-all game between 2 closely-matched teams (forget your opinion: the series is 1-1) - that is a scenario more familiar to NH teams,

What was unthinkable 1 year ago, 1 month ago - it might just happen.

2 sleeps to go. 12 years to wait for redemption.

Enjoy!

Cheers
Megweya

@booboo said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:

I still think Warren G is a massive dick and hope he loses.

Is there the option for the Lions to win but Gatland to lose?
Maybe a French-style RWC2011 revolt when they ignored the lunatic Livremont?

There are many things this tour that Gatland has done this tour that have annoyed me - his digs in the press conferences, not trying the Sexton-Farell partnership earlier in the tour, his drafting in of the "plastic Lions", in the last midweek game making 7 of the pack play 80 minutes to the point of exhaustion and demoralise them about not then having no hope of getting into the test team.

That said, he has seemed to create a good atmosphere among the players and has supported the early trips to schools etc. On a rugby front he has been willing to abandon his preferred approach of bulky-12 smashing the ball up for a 1m gain and somehow the team have become at times quite fluid.

If I had the choice I'd have Hansen as a coach - he has been more respectful of the opposition and the officials, he has set the tone for a good culture within the team and good results/style on the pitch. He has a good mix of analysis, pragmatism, proportion, humility and humour in what he says in the press conferences.

I hope that when/if the ABs lose on Saturday, Hansen is not the scapegoat.
The ABs have had significant disruption in both tests - it is normally the touring team who are running out of first-line players by the third test. Maybe the good fortune of the Lions with injuries has had more of an impact than has been suggested so far?

@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:

Faletau's try was top drawer.

Having seen a step-by-step review of it today, I think it was a far, far better try than the try in the first test by O'Brien.

The first Test try needed a bit of luck/opportunism - Read's charge was maybe worth a gamble because it might have made a fullback panic, but Williams stepped inside and there was a nice arrangement of players on both sides for the Lions to capitalise through the neat exchanges between Davies/Daly/Davies/O'Brien.
Four players contribute to the attack. The distance makes it unexpected/dramatic/spectacular - but overall it made no difference.

However, the Faletau try was more like a Joe Schmidt-planned try. It starts with the scrum-half in the lineout at the front and O'Brien at 9, then Murray drops back to take the tap, O'Brien keeps the focus close-in from the AB-tail, but Murray skip-passes to Sexton who gives a short pass to Farrell.
Farrell and Davies tie in the AB midfield, Sexton loops and Daly comes in from the blindside-wing, just evading ALB and feeds Williams who puts Watson away on the right.
Watson is tackled but Murray rolls Dagg and O'Brien has the strength to resist the combined counter-ruck of Cane and Barrett.
Daly acts as 9 to get the ball out to Sexton and Itoje trucks it up, supported by George. Murray feeds Sexton who has inside options from Furlong and Lawes with Davies running a hard line from centre, but Sexton pulls it back deep to Farrell who has had time to size up the ABs improvised defence.
Farrell wisely skips Warburton to get the ball to Williams in midfield and passes to Faletau who is 5m in from touch. Faletau is not in the clear and has to use his power/experience to get through the Dagg tackle. I've seen several Lions backs not score from better chances this tour.
That's what I call a team try!

That's all 7 backs involved and (depending on how you do the maths) the ball going through about 16 pairs of hands &/or significant contributions leading up to that try, going 40m up the pitch but 2 x 70m widths, so it is a total of about 180m of play.

Also it happened when it was 14v14, so was not simply down to numerical difference (although the effort of the AB-14 from minutes 25-60 might have been starting to catch up on them).

Above all - it made a difference: it got the Lions back in the game after 20 minutes of trying to throw away the series by giving away dumb penalty after dumb penalty.

So far, by far, that for me is the try of the tour (and several other tours!).

@Catogrande said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:

McBride

I thought I had heard all the trivia about Willie John McBride until yesterday:
he played more games for the Lions (70) than for Ireland (63)!

There were a lot of provincial games on those long tours in the 60s/70s!

@pakman said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:

Itoje was part of an eight man pack which did not subdue the AB seven. He was pinged offside at least twice and could or should have been more, penalties which threatened to sink Lions. Pulled off a good maul sack and made a couple of big tackles but the collective result suggests the less showy aspects were nothing special. I simply wouldn't have swapped either of the two AB locks for him.

Yep, I agree with you.
The balance of pro's/cons is key.
If the pro's are make a big tackle and a big break that are eye-catching but make no contribution to the scoreboard (or at least the momentum of a match)
but the cons are 2 dumb penalties that concede 6 points or make an attack break down, then I'd settle for a non-flashy player who does the grunt work (like Whitelock).
Rugby is a team game - all the bits and pieces working together is what wins games and tournaments.

Itoje will presumably learn not to concede so often.
Sean O'Brien used to infuriate me by the way he could not resist some dumb challenges at the tackle. However, he has improved over the years to be one of the few players in the squad that many Kiwis seemed to rate before the Lions arrived.

@Bovidae said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:

When Ireland lose in the playoffs - again.

Nope, that's the whole cunning plan for hosting it in Ireland in 2023.

None of the other teams will be able to resist the allure of drinking proper Guinness during the tournament.

@jegga

Geech just got faint from a bug according to his daughter.

Maybe the thought of having been a 71kg centre back in the day and seeing
SBW 108kg and Laumape 103kg warming up at 50% more beef than him in his prime made him go weak at the knees.

@jegga said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:

Christ Gatland, you just coached a team to a win over the abs and you have to go and make it all about you.

Warren-bawl?

Or maybe a "sook"?

Gatland is like Mourinho and Woodward - in his head, there is always some part of what is going on that is about him.

This sort of grandstanding never happened with Geech in '89, '93. '97 or '09 (or the mid-week part of '05).

At RWC 2019 it will happen with Eddie J but not with Joe Schmidt.
Different folks, different strokes.
Give me Geech and Joe any day.

PS Please don't take Joe in 2019 - we want him for the RWC in Ireland 2023!

@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:

Peter Stringer who I thought was a cnut!

... with a superb pass and an amazing knack of tap-tackling.

This one

seems Yoda-like because Luger seemed way past him.

Going a bit deeper, he had a challenging time as a youngster with discussions about having growth hormone to make him bigger - long interview (1 hour)

On a lighter note, Ireland lock Mick Galway says when he was recalled to the side in 2000 (despite some selectors thinking he was too small for a lock) he stood between youngsters O'Gara and Stringer to make himself look bigger to the committee men in the stand!

But then, anyone looked big compared to Stringer -

better than many others!

@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:

This is a very special side. I can't think of another international side who could have competed against this BIL side with a man down for so long. And almost win it.

It was an immense bloody-minded effort, but the 2nd-half first-20 minute penalty-deluge was what let NZ stay in the game - a coherent national side like England or Ireland would not have allowed that to happen.

.. sending off. In real time I thought it was a yellow. On reflection red was the correct call.

Real-time, the main side-view camera meant it was hard to see.
All other angles made it so clear that it is hard to believe a few people query it.

Doing something so dumb is normally only seen from an over-eager novice
or someone on 70 minutes whose brain is oxygen-starved after 5 minutes of non-stop play.

SBW deserves the full criticism for this specific action.
It seems like some people are using it to unload a back-log of criticism.

Wellington police need to be informed that Itoje has appropriated McCaw's Cloak of Invisibility.

Itoje: educated at Harrow - maybe in some of the dark arts of Hogwarts-McCawesome-ball-expelliarmus?

But hopefully Gatland realises that he got out of jail with this result.

Too true.

@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:

SBW is an idiot. Always wrap your arms, rugby 101. Unforgiveable and if he's not banned he deserves to sit out the 3rd test.

Yep, it was mindless play of the highest order.

Almost matched by the collective brainfart by several Lions who did their best in the 3rd quarter to make it a close game, or even to give ABs a chance of a win.

@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:

They believe they have the right personnel, and with more precision and better execution the right tactics to beat the ABs .
... Baby and bathwater springs to mind

I'm willing to use one hand to tip the bath to 30-degrees and spill out some of the bathwater, but use the other hand to hold onto the baby

It will be a mistake to set out to do the same thing again with the same people and hoping that more precision/execution will beat the ABs who were dominant for large parts of the game.

12 years is a long time to wonder "What would have happened if ..."
The Lions were at their best when the ball got beyond 12.
So I'd opt for the alternative approach of 2 playmakers with Sexton at 10 and Farrell at 12.
That is tough on Te'O as he made some ground and defended well, but he is not good at getting the outside backs going. Te'O not being in the way of SBW will stress the Lions defence line more so I'd stick with Murray over Webb for 60-65 minutes. Webb does not contribute as much to defence as Murray and Webb is prone to solo-breaks with no support and will lose possession when isolated.

I'd take AWJ out of the squad (maybe unfair as he did take a heavy knock before the first try) but he seemed out of touch. If he was injured and has recovered, then he could get in from the start as a lineout-caller. If not, then Lawes and Kruis (again Kruis just ahead of Itoje because of being a lineout-caller).
Then bring Itoje on at 50 min for whichever lock is likely to fade most.
There is a huge clamour for Itoje, but for all his athleticism, he does make rash mistakes and give away penalties.

There is talk of swapping POM for Warburton, but I don't think there is a huge difference.
So 2 changes (Lawes for AWJ; Sexton in, Te'O out) + 1 positional (Farrell)
Same front-row;
Lawes and Kruis (or AWJ if he had played on injured)
Same back-row
Murray, Sexton
Farrell, Davies
Same back 3

If Stander is going well, I'd put him on the bench instead of Warburton as Stander might be able to make yards when he comes on (but has not done that as well in 2017 as in 2016). Again, that is tough on Warburton, but Stander would offer a difference off the bench.
Tipuric would be a genuinely different option, but Gatland/Howley have not given him much time in a Welsh shirt over the years, so it is too late for a change of heart / game-plan.

I'd probably opt for Henderson - like Itoje he gives lock/6 cover.
2 locks on the bench would give the starting pair the scope to flog themselves for 50-60 minutes to counter Retallick/Whitelock/Read.

The one other bench option would be to have Joseph, again to provide something different: Halfpenny will not break open a game with a run/step.

Bench:
I'd make a bit more change to the bench with 3 changes and changing to a 6-2 split to give different back-5 forward options to the first Test.
Same front row
Itoje, Henderson, Stander
Webb, Joseph
Also there might be more positive benefit from the promotion of 4 players into the matchday squad (Lawes, Henderson, Stander, Joseph) compared to the negative impact of 4 players going out of the squad (AWJ, Warburton, Te'O, Halfpenny).

It might not make sense to others who read it, but neither does doing the same again!
Tough on AWJ, Te'O to go from starting to out of the squad, but this is the toughest arena so hard choices have to be made.

@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs. B&I Lions test #1:

you lose your 15 and your 13 at the same time it's massive, as they are two of your biggest organisers. Add in it also results in a change at 10

If it had happened to the Lions, all us Lions fans would be pointing to it for a reason for not winning.
The first 10 minutes / second 10 minutes seemed to sum up the game.
First 10 minutes:
Lions get a chance for a winger to score in first couple of minutes but don't.
Lions have a lot of possession/territory but no points.

Second 10 minutes:
Great NZ phases/pressure; NZ get a 5m penalty, but don't go for 3, don't kick for corner, don't scrum it - instead Barrett calls for a quick tap and ball gets to Taylor who picks the ball off his toes.
Most NH 10s would not would gamble a 5m pen to create the chance.
Most NH hookers would be happy just not to knock-on - let alone score.

Furthermore, the somewhat delusional NH perspective is that a very good Lions try is celebrated up here as an achievement in itself, but the SH reality is to focus on bossing the game and taking control of the series.

Well done to the ABs

Megweya

PS: As an Irish fan I feel the need to go to YouTube to watch the Chicago video, because I can't see similar success coming on the next 2 Saturdays.

@Margin_Walker said in 15 links to NH Podcasts about Lions Tour:

good interview with Phil Bennett talking about the 74 and 77 tours.

That was a really good long interview (50 min) - a real insight from a sporting and human perspective. Bennett talked about what it was like for a 70s amateur player to have to get time off work for a long tour and the impact of being away from wife and young child.
Also some jaw-dropping penny-pinching compared to today's corporate-logo'd lavish NH/SH tours:
There was only match-day kit - they had to bring their own club training kit (and dry it out each night!)

Sadly the rest of the podcasts waffle far too much - which is a shame as Flatman is good when he is in the TV-commentary box and chips in with a couple of pertinent comments about scrums. But clearly, when given an open microphone and no time limit, the focus can wander.

@Tim

Hi Tim

As you've added a blog-link, I've thought I'd add a (cross-post) link to a set of links to 15 NH podcasts that I''ve added in another topic.

For us in the NH, it is still 2 more sleeps to the once-in-12-years-Christmas!

Cheers
Megweya

If you have about 15 hours a week spare "ear-time" over the next 2 weeks, and you might be interested in a different point of view, below are 15 podcasts from the "British and Irish Isles" for you.

The links are all to podcast site Player.Fm, so you can choose to either just browse to play/download the ones that appeal, or opt to subscribe.
(Most are also available through iTunes, Podbean.com or direct from the various sites - so use whatever suits you best.)

If you can reply with suggestions for NZ ones that would be great.
(Or from elsewhere with a Lions interest.)
I've already found the SportRadio online live-feed, NZ Herald's Out of the Box the Tony Veitch paper-shufflingly The Roar and Kirwan on Facebook's Feed the Backs

I'm an Ireland fan, so that's where I will start:
Podcasts from an Irish perspective
The 42 Rugby Show
Usually 2-3 a week during the tour. Main person is Murray Kinsella. a tactics-savvy journalist.

NewsTalk - Off the Ball
2-3 times a week: usually an Irish journalist and an ex-international (usually Keith Wood or BOD).

Joe.ie - Hard Yards
A mix of opinions, analysis and a few tall tales,
Usually about 1 a week but might be more during the tour. Usually with a couple of ex-players (often ROG). A mix of opinions, analysis and a more than a few tall tales,

Pundit Arena - Oval Office
2-3 times a week: 2 online journalists talking plus sometimes an interview.

Irishman Abroad
Not a rugby podcast, but a range of long interviews, about 10-15 of which are of Irish rugby players (usually recently retired). Not the usual mundane soundbites - the interviewee gets time to talk. (Also Irish actors, comedians etc.)

Podcasts from an English perspective
Egg Chasers
3 guys talking about rugby. Opinionated, fun but not ignorant. 2 English guys and 1 Welsh.

Blood and Mud
2 guys talking about rugby. 2 English guys - the sort of rugby-conversation you have over several beers: sweary, funny, biased, but also well-observed, though sometimes endearingly daft.

Rugby Pod
2 recent retirees: Jim Hamilton (Scotland lock), Andy Goode (flyhalf for Leics & many others - think England's Steve Donald apart from winning a RWC). Lots of opinion, not a lot of objectivity and some very tall tales.

Brian Moore - Full Contact
Sundays: The former England/Lions hooker - always forthright, but as an ex-lawyer he likes a well-argued discussion. Different ex-players each week.

TalkSport - Rugby Special: Lion's Den
1 hour every day. Standard broadcaster interviews from a UK Radio station. Also include pieces from Ireland's Michael Corcoran and various NZ pundits.

BBC Rugby
2-3 a week during the tour. Standard broadcaster interviews from a UK Radio station.
Plus some in-depth specials such as:
"2005: How not to win a series",
"Making of the 1997 film 'Living with the Lions' " etc.

Podcasts from a Scottish perspective
Scottish Rugby
About 1 a week - 3 fans who not surprisingly, more of a focus on the Scotland team, but a bit of Lions chat.

The Thistle
About every 2 weeks - also 3 other fans who likewise have more of a focus on the Scotland team, but also a bit of Lions chat

Podcasts from a Welsh perspective
Attacking Scrum
Usually 2-3 times a week during the tour. Describes itself in duplicate as "Wales Rugby Podcast for Welsh Rugby fans" - just in case you weren't clear the first time.

Wales Online - Rugby podcast
About 1 a week. Journalists and ex-players.

---

There are various YouTube bloggers/vloggers but as you might expect from a Lions fan,
I've stuck to dull-routine mp3 (catch a download just like catching box-kicks out of an Auckland night-sky)
rather than the more visual video versions (even if it is usually just 2 blokes talking, sometimes with one shuffling paper)

Listen and either enjoy or be outraged, but hear a different point of view.

Cheers
Megweya

@KiwiMurph

Mentions of McCaw reminded me of recently seeing this old video clip of Richie scoring in 1998 Schools final between Rotorua & Otago
Skip to 3:25 for a 50m multiple-offloading side-stepping try 5m lineout drive

@Salacious-Crumb said in Highlanders v B&I Lions:

Scrums binding in a heartbeat

Was it because both packs were so keen for the renewal of clandestine punching etc?

How did such less-than-peak-condition sportsmen cope without the 1-minute break that is the modern scrum?

(Maybe the repeated 1-minute pile-up that was the old-fashioned ruck?)
Unless 'Shoe-pie' was on the menu ...
Skip to 14:16 for a bit of old-school shoe-pie served to Lions John Dawes for being on the wrong side of a ruck