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@Victor-Meldrew domestic ones would be interesting compared to solar panels etc, noise and efficiency (do you need several?)
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@Kiwiwomble
Cost differential is high. 7kw solar is around £10k, wind turbine £20-25k. Reducing though -
@Kiwiwomble said in Climate Change:
@Kirwan as i say, beauty is subjective, i don't find them ugly or at very least not compared to a huge concrete building or a solar farm (at least you can see the ground beneath) or even a dam
Actually science says beauty isn't subjective, but regardless you surely would acknowledge they definitely detract from the vista? And that's before the hazard they pose to birds.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Climate Change:
@booboo said in Climate Change:
What I find interesting, and I've never really explored it, is the shear size of the turbines.
I assume it's all to do with efficiency, but I've wondered why more, smaller less intrusive units can't be used.
There will be reasons no doubt, but these things seem big, expensive and unwieldy, and they are unsightly (a lot power generation can be).
Def. not an expert, but been told it's to do with economies of scale. The big ones cost about £1m but give a return of about 8-10%.
Depends on how you look at it I guess:
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@antipodean said in Climate Change:
And that's before the hazard they pose to birds.
Weirdly, we've been told it depends on local bird (and bat) species - some are affected, some aren't. Reducing some predator birds allows small, animals like voles to thrive - which helps other predator bird species.
Which just proves nature is smarter than us....
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Climate Change:
@antipodean said in Climate Change:
And that's before the hazard they pose to birds.
Weirdly, we've been told it depends on local bird (and bat) species - some are affected, some aren't. Reducing some predator birds allows small, endangered animals like voles to thrive - which helps other predator bird species.
Which just proves nature is smarter than us....
A few months ago I spent half an hour watching two wedge-tailed eagles soaring. In that time I didn't witness them flap their wings and it was fantastic to see. It would be a shame if such apex predators were to be pushed into a conservation status of concern, especially when nature is a balance.
I'd prefer a sea of solar farms out there, at least farmers can still run sheep under them. Only concern, and this goes to wind turbines and coal mines as well, is the remediation. Too easy for companies to sell assets to others without the capital to do the hard work once they're uneconomic.
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That's the price Siemens sell the hardware at. If they want to sell at a loss that's up to them. A 10% increase in capital cost still makes an IRR of 8-9% attractive.
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@antipodean said in Climate Change:
I'd prefer a sea of solar farms out there, at least farmers can still run sheep under them.
That's the problem, they can't as they need to be close to the ground. Sheep graze happily beneath a wind turbine. Will ask about cows.
EDIT: We have birds of prey a-plenty which aren't affected by the turbine - buzzards, Sparrow Hawks, Kestrels. Other species might be though.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Climate Change:
@antipodean said in Climate Change:
I'd prefer a sea of solar farms out there, at least farmers can still run sheep under them.
That's the problem, they can't as they need to be close to the ground. Sheep graze happily beneath a wind turbine. Will ask about cows.
Sheep farmers out here can and do happily run sheep as the grass still grows beneath the sufficiently spaced rows of panels. Unlike cows, sheep don't have the mass to damage the infrastructure either. The rent from the land to energy companies can also help farms during droughts.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Climate Change:
That's the price Siemens sell the hardware at. If they want to sell at a loss that's up to them. A 10% increase in capital cost still makes an IRR of 8-9% attractive.
I can't think of many companies that willingly sell products at a loss. A few that are getting priced squeezed because their input costs make them uncompetitive. Funnily enough the same reason Germany is going to the dogs; the cheap dependable energy that powered its industries no longer exists.
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We don't have that luxury in the UK...
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@antipodean yeah, i actually did some googling as ive definitely seen some solar farms in Vic where the panels are so close to the ground and close together grass barely grows, very barren, but looks like they might be the exception or maybe they are older before people thought to design them to allow sheep to graze
even some suggestion its good as provides shade for them
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@antipodean said in Climate Change:
can't think of many companies that willingly sell products at a loss.
Government subsidies, dear boy.
Funnily enough the same reason
Germanythe EU is going to the dogsFIFY...
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@Kiwiwomble said in Climate Change:
@antipodean yeah, i actually did some googling as ive definitely seen some solar farms in Vic where the panels are so close to the ground and close together grass barely grows, very barren, but looks like they might be the exception or maybe they are older before people thought to design them to allow sheep to graze
even some suggestion its good as provides shade for them
I've heard that as a result they're getting a better consistency from the wool too.
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what impact will these large solar farms have with reflected light?
Cant recall where I saw it (and how true) but was an example saying they could put huge farms in the Sahara that could generate enough to power whole countries, but the resulting environmental changes to other areas would be catastrophic.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Climate Change:
The wind turbine near me probably generates £80-90k of power a year. As part of the planning consent, around 15-20% is used locally to fund local kids education, local charities and the like. Our village hall gets about £2.5k a year and 3 local kids are getting grants while they are at Uni.
The community funding thing is interesting - there is a lot of money that coal power stations give to the local communities here. Shitload cheaper than paying tax and much better PR.
A mate in Sweden lives in a valley where the local community operates small hydro already, and is now considering wind to support that, because of climate change and uncertainty over snowmelt.
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@taniwharugby did it elaborate on how the reflected light would cause these ramifications?
i think Musk may have tweeted or retweeted something about solar farms in the sahara but it was quickly pointed out the math was out by a order of magnitude and kind of ignored the fact you then have to get the power to these countries 100/1000/10000km away
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@Kiwiwomble not sure that was in the same piece that I read, but I expect long term issues with reflective light, probably sit up there with how turbines might affect wind patterns and bird migrations or tidal flow from tidal generators....alot of theoretical stuff?
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@taniwharugby I've often wondered how cutting freeways through hillsides changes local ecosystems long-term. Obviously all the initial destruction is part of the environmental assessment, but what about wind patterns there?
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@Kiwiwomble said in Climate Change:
@taniwharugby did it elaborate on how the reflected light would cause these ramifications?
i think Musk may have tweeted or retweeted something about solar farms in the sahara but it was quickly pointed out the math was out by a order of magnitude and kind of ignored the fact you then have to get the power to these countries 100/1000/10000km away
He suggested some desert in the US, I think like in New Mexico. Large enough would be enough for the entire US energy needs, and not that big.
Real plan long term would be solar panels in space far out (maybe on the moon or super high stable orbits and beam the power down where it’s needed. NASA just tested a prototype of that.
Climate Change