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@jc said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
Do you see other/upcoming examples of "additional goals" of the trans movement i.e. similar to sport?
Let me make clear this is about the trans movement, not about trans people
...And yet somehow it’s become acceptable to criticise or chastise someone for not knowing how to abide by a rule that was just made up a little while ago, such as individual, fluid pronouns.
...
But they’re not even attempting to do the work on winning hearts and minds that ensures enduring shifts in the way we think and act. They’ve gone straight for the imposition of their will through the force of law.Anyway, just my take, and you did make the mistake of asking!
We might agree far more than disagree, excellent rant!
I agree on the hearts and mind stuff, the difference between asking and telling someone is huge
On the "force of law" I can't talk for law in NZ, self-ID etc?
But I do follow the detailed UK parliamentary cross-party consultations on things like reforming the Gender Recognition Act, and now on Conversion Therapy. The discussion may be far more balanced than you might imagine ... the Select Commitee consults with academics and legalists and religious groups the Trans Rights Activists would 100% consider transphobic. It's interesting reading tbh
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@l_n_p I don’t think you even need to look at trans- or gender-specific legislation to see the problem tbh. The issue of hate speech has been pushed hard by SJ activists who have used the vulnerability of trans people as one of the arguments in its favour. Having got that on the books they they now weaponise it to stifle any dissenting voices. That means the committees you mention are meeting against a backdrop of almost complete radio silence from everybody except those with the approved progressive views.
Apart from the causes they espouse, a great many progressives are indistinguishable from their far right counterparts in terms of their tactics. They don’t want democracy, because they don’t think people who disagree with them deserve a voice at all. They want submission. And so far the progressives appear to be getting it too.
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@jc Is that an NZ viewpoint or a UK or wider?
In the UK I read the Telegraph, Guardian (and Times) with the odd dip into the (for kiwis) very right-wing Spectator ... I don't see radio silence you mention, quite the opposite currently that's all
If I'm in the loony bin for cognititve dissonance is a few years, you know why
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This article I just read seemed a pretty balanced view, the question mark I had was for the future: that younger generation trans women who take puberty-blockers might not go through male puberty at all - so may be a lot closer to natal females?
"The scientists argue there is a path to allow trans women to compete in female sport by lowering testosterone. According to Pitsiladis, one way to achieve this is to change rules regarding testosterone depending on the sport, with less emphasis on using medication in events like shooting, and more in collision sports ...
However other scientists insist there is overwhelming evidence to show there is no way to allow trans women into female sport without sacrificing fairness. They point to recent studies showing that trans women maintain significant advantages from undergoing male puberty even when they subsequently lower testosterone"
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@L_n_P but then you go down the road of whether it is even ethical to be giving children puberty blockers given the potential long term effects of that. In my opinion, it absolutely isn't, especially when you consider how many young people with gender dysphoria actually turn out to be gay and those feelings of dysphoria subside; we are seeing more and more cases of people really regretting hormone treatment/puberty blockers/surgery.
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Another thing that gets me with the trans debate is trans activists comparing two data sets against one variable to try and prove that sex differences are all on a spectrum. E.G. some women are stronger than some men, so it's not obvious that trans women have an advantage. But as soon as you add in another variable - such as comparing 80kg men to 80kg females, or top female athletes against top male athletes, that overlap disappears completely and the differences are stark.
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@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
This article I just read seemed a pretty balanced view, the question mark I had was for the future: that younger generation trans women who take puberty-blockers might not go through male puberty at all - so may be a lot closer to natal females?
"The scientists argue there is a path to allow trans women to compete in female sport by lowering testosterone. According to Pitsiladis, one way to achieve this is to change rules regarding testosterone depending on the sport, with less emphasis on using medication in events like shooting, and more in collision sports ...
However other scientists insist there is overwhelming evidence to show there is no way to allow trans women into female sport without sacrificing fairness. They point to recent studies showing that trans women maintain significant advantages from undergoing male puberty even when they subsequently lower testosterone"
Puberty blockers should be illegal. No 12/13 year old should be making these sorts of decisions as a child. Far too easily led by parents or other adults with undue influence.
This will be seen as shameful in 10 or 20 years.
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@no-quarter said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@L_n_P but then you go down the road of whether it is even ethical to be giving children puberty blockers given the potential long term effects of that. In my opinion, it absolutely isn't, especially when you consider how many young people with gender dysphoria actually turn out to be gay and those feelings of dysphoria subside; we are seeing more and more cases of people really regretting hormone treatment/puberty blockers/surgery.
Ethics are societal, each country makes their own decisions at their own pace so that's a pretty wide discussion for me. Far more simply and within the "Trans in Sport" context, if puberty-blockers are a reality then sports scientists will also need to consider this as part of any future research
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@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@no-quarter said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@L_n_P but then you go down the road of whether it is even ethical to be giving children puberty blockers given the potential long term effects of that. In my opinion, it absolutely isn't, especially when you consider how many young people with gender dysphoria actually turn out to be gay and those feelings of dysphoria subside; we are seeing more and more cases of people really regretting hormone treatment/puberty blockers/surgery.
Ethics are societal, each country makes their own decisions at their own pace so that's a pretty wide discussion for me. Far more simply and within the "Trans in Sport" context, if puberty-blockers are a reality then sports scientists will also need to consider this as part of any future research
I think it's immutable that children are too young to make life changing decisions.
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@booboo said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@no-quarter said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@L_n_P but then you go down the road of whether it is even ethical to be giving children puberty blockers given the potential long term effects of that. In my opinion, it absolutely isn't, especially when you consider how many young people with gender dysphoria actually turn out to be gay and those feelings of dysphoria subside; we are seeing more and more cases of people really regretting hormone treatment/puberty blockers/surgery.
Ethics are societal, each country makes their own decisions at their own pace so that's a pretty wide discussion for me. Far more simply and within the "Trans in Sport" context, if puberty-blockers are a reality then sports scientists will also need to consider this as part of any future research
I think it's immutable that children are too young to make life changing decisions.
From what you say on "life changing decisions" I wonder in NZ - aren't parental and medical consent needed to access puberty blockers, or can your kids over there just decide for themselves? A quick read I just did, NZ medical pathways for trans kids have 3 separate decision points - access to puberty blockers (age unclear), hormones (min age 16+), surgery (min age 18+)
If so UK would be pretty similar to NZ, though it's under review
US and Canada legislate it on a state-by-state / province-by-province basis etc
(Not getting into the ethics here, just pointing out some current examples)
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Surely a precedent has been set that governments decide on whether kids get these procedures/treatments.
If the governments are satisfied with the science then parents can choose to be a part of their children's lives or be excluded from their children's lives in society.
We can call the dissenting parents "anti- transers"
The health of the child is at stake here. Don't want health services over burdened with the actions of dumb trans deniers, now do we. Besides, parents have a choice whether to follow government rulings or suffer the consequences. It's not a mandate. Parents can present an official consentment certificate at sports days and music recitals.
That's how we do health interventions nowadays.
(yes I know that's dripping with sarcasm, but all sarcasm exposes principles)
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@siam Pretty much spot on honestly. There's a few things at play -
- The ages I gave are for NZ and UK are for public healthcare access for trans kids, of course there's the option of going private too
- There are international healthcare guideliness for trans kids which allow a bit more flexibility e.g like maybe starting hormones at 13-15 ... these are followed by private medical suppliers, I would guess the US too
- A trans kid in the UK can theoretically access puberty blockers and hormones under 16 without parental consent if they are found to be "Gillick competent" by practitioners. Gillick is a wider legal precedent which includes access for all kids to abortion services, contraceptives etc. Real life is trans kids can't apply this here given public healthcare gatekeeping - unless they can afford to go private without their parents knowing (how???)
On the science ... puberty blockers have been used for decades now to delay precocious puberty, BUT they're needed for longer periods by many trans kids - the goal is specifically to buy them time and let them decide if they do want to take further steps, or to desist. So there ARE some known areas of medical discussion / uncertainty specific to trans kids:
- Bone density impacts
- Fertility perservation prior to starting hormones for both M2F (cryopreservation of sperm - definitely needed) and F2M (preservation of eggs - suggested)
The medical gatekeeping to go on puberty blockers seems pretty high as it should be - I'd need to dig out UK stats, but the huge majority of pre-puberty kids referred to Gender Identity Clinics don't end up on them ... from memory
Everyone's going to have a perspective, hopefully this adds light though
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@machpants said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@majorrage said in Memes:
Given apple have a pregnant man emoji this isn’t a meme anymore.
Sad, but fucked.
There are pregnant people with beards out there, so meh? Who cares, I don't have to shag them
Moving this and my post in case anybody has the desire to enter the most toxic debate on the planet.
Having a view challenged with the argument of not having to shag them as the perspective is unlikely to provoke much thought.
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@majorrage said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@machpants said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@majorrage said in Memes:
Given apple have a pregnant man emoji this isn’t a meme anymore.
Sad, but fucked.
There are pregnant people with beards out there, so meh? Who cares, I don't have to shag them
Moving this and my post in case anybody has the desire to enter the most toxic debate on the planet.
Having a view challenged with the argument of not having to shag them as the perspective is unlikely to provoke much thought.
Fair enough, I'll zip lip. It was a poor attempt at a joke
And not post anymore boobs
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@machpants said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@majorrage said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@machpants said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@majorrage said in Memes:
Given apple have a pregnant man emoji this isn’t a meme anymore.
Sad, but fucked.
There are pregnant people with beards out there, so meh? Who cares, I don't have to shag them
Moving this and my post in case anybody has the desire to enter the most toxic debate on the planet.
Having a view challenged with the argument of not having to shag them as the perspective is unlikely to provoke much thought!
Fair enough, I'll zip lip. It was a poor attempt at a joke
I should have used an exclamation mark at the end of my sentence to lighten it up a bit ... (changed now in this reply).
And not post anymore boobs
Punish others? No need ...
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@majorrage said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@machpants said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@majorrage said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@machpants said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@majorrage said in Memes:
Given apple have a pregnant man emoji this isn’t a meme anymore.
Sad, but fucked.
There are pregnant people with beards out there, so meh? Who cares, I don't have to shag them
Moving this and my post in case anybody has the desire to enter the most toxic debate on the planet.
Having a view challenged with the argument of not having to shag them as the perspective is unlikely to provoke much thought!
Fair enough, I'll zip lip. It was a poor attempt at a joke
I should have used an exclamation mark at the end of my sentence to lighten it up a bit ... (changed now in this reply).
And not post anymore boobs
Punish others? No need ...
My boob fighting pic was sadly deleted. But I can still see it 😁
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Perhaps more substantively - on Lia Thomas, USA swimming have brought in new policies
https://www.foxnews.com/sports/lia-thomas-future-usa-swimming-new-policy-penn-teammates-support
For me all the science seems pretty immature, but the key point is that fairness has to be the #1 priority in elite level sport at least ... and that this needs to apply to intersex competitors too like Caster Semenya (you'll have to google DSD, and I'd suggest Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia)
Transgender debate, in sport, in general