B&I Lions 2017
-
@Crucial said in B&I Lions 2017:
@MN5 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Crucial said in B&I Lions 2017:
@rotated said in B&I Lions 2017:
Has anyone spotted any stabs at the touring party following the last round?
Very, very interesting set up following the Irish victory. Streak aside, on balance I think Ireland have the best claims over the past 6-12 months to dominate this squad and the XV.
English fans may want to hear that, but if these fixtures were structured in a different way and the Italy/Ireland performances were weeks 1 and 2 - I think they get less of a rub going into June.
Scotland over-performed in the 6N, Ireland have the English and ABs scalp, England just equalled a world record streak and Gats has to show some loyalty to "his guys". So an interesting selection upcoming.
Even more interesting the Lions squad is probably coached by the 4th best coach of the lot, although still not a poor one but with a questionable back room. In hindsight perhaps reuiniting a Schmidt/Cotter ticket would have me a bit more worried.
There was a pile of them in the Sunday Times yesterday. The Walrus wouldn't even take Hogg on tour because apparently you don't want an attacking player
Haha. I've gotta read that. I love the Walrus's stuff. Got a link?
ST is paywalled. We need someone with access to C&P it here.
Paying for news on the interweb? What's next.....Paying for porn?
-
@Crucial said in B&I Lions 2017:
Captain: Gatland has come out and said that his tour captain is not guaranteed a starting test spot. I can see what he is getting at, not wanting anyone to get a free ride and not wanting one group to instantly feel they don't have a chance at playing. But this is an odd one. For me he needs to pick a leader with a 90%+ chance of starting the tests. Warburton fits the bill.
Both McGeechan and Woodward have come out in favour of Warburton. Best has also been mentioned but is he the top hooker?
-
@Bovidae said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Crucial said in B&I Lions 2017:
Captain: Gatland has come out and said that his tour captain is not guaranteed a starting test spot. I can see what he is getting at, not wanting anyone to get a free ride and not wanting one group to instantly feel they don't have a chance at playing. But this is an odd one. For me he needs to pick a leader with a 90%+ chance of starting the tests. Warburton fits the bill.
Both McGeechan and Woodward have come out in favour of Warburton. Best has also been mentioned but is he the top hooker?
Yeah. This also brings up the biggest question and that is the style of play that the Lions will go for.
Do they play a defensive game and look to smother the ABs with size and a pressing backline defence while hoping they can stay in the game long enough to get opportunities from forward play or do they try a mixed game that can capitalise on a combination of skillsets even if that is different to the way most of the players normally play and will take time to bed in. -
The Times writers pick their teams
OWEN SLOT
Lions XVS Hogg; G North, J Joseph, O Farrell, L Williams; J Sexton, C Murray; M Vunipola, J George, T Furlong, AW Jones, M Itoje, CJ Stander, S Warburton, B Vunipola
STUART BARNES
Lions XVS Hogg; G North, J Joseph, O Farrell, A Watson; J Sexton, C Murray; M Vunipola, K Owens, T Furlong, AW Jones, M Itoje, S Warburton, S O’Brien, B Vunipola
ALEX LOWE
Lions XVR Kearney; G North, J Joseph, O Farrell, E Daly; J Sexton, C Murray; J McGrath, R Best, T Furlong, AW Jones, J Launchbury, M Itoje, S Warburton, B Vunipola
JOHN WESTERBY
Lions XV S Hogg; A Watson, R Henshaw, O Farrell, G North; J Sexton, C Murray; M Vunipola, J George, T Furlong, I Henderson, AW Jones, M Itoje, S Warburton, B Vunipola
STEVE JAMES
Lions XVS Hogg; G North, B Te’o, O, Farrell, E Daly; J Sexton, C Murray; M Vunipola, K Owens, T Furlong, M Itoje, AW Jones, CJ Stander, S Warburton, B Vunipola
ALASDAIR REID
Lions XVS Hogg; G North, J Joseph, O Farrell, T Seymour; J Sexton, R Webb; M Vunipola, K Owens, T Furlong, M Itoje, AW Jones, CJ Stander, S O’Brien, B VunipolaAnd as a bonus - Stephen Jones
So, what’s on your in-tray, Warren? In-form men give Lions coach Gatland a boost as he finalises his squad
The hustings are almost over; there are just a few more club occasions for candidates to state their case in front of Warren Gatland. The requirements are the same as they were at the start of the process: this is not any tour, it is the tour, to the harshest environment in rugby. Players chosen have to be more than physical, as hard mentally as they are in body. It is no time for a punt, no time to pick poor defenders, or bad apples.
Only the best 36 will do. Players like George Kruis, the England lock, and WP Nel, the Scotland prop, may well have been chosen but for long-term injury. Both appear to have run out of time to impress Warren Gatland before the squad comes out in early April. So too a long shot in Jake Cooper-Woolley, the Wasps prop who had had a long break with concussion. Another sad feature could well be a dramatic dip in the expected Scottish contingent, with a list of contenders suffering badly from the embarrassing eclipse of the team at Twickenham.
Gatland is thought to rate Josh Strauss, the bearded Glasgow flanker, very highly — and my team includes Sean Maitland, the Scotland wing, with Tommy Seymour and Tim Visser edged out on the wing. But players such as Jonny and Richie Gray at lock were outplayed at Twickenham, in a position where the competition is mighty. Fly-half Finn Russell may well have been overtaken by the sheer class available in that position, with Dan Biggar, Johnny Sexton and Owen Farrell in contention.
George Ford does not make my team for the same reason as Stuart Hogg, the full-back — lack of physical stature in what is a very bruising environment. Huw Jones, the Scottish centre, may yet squeeze into midfield but Gatland may well be forced to decide any 50-50 calls in favour of a Scot to make the squad at least nominally representative. My full-back choices get in on their defence as much as offensive capability because New Zealand kick more than any other team. Rob Kearney is a fearless competitor and faultless under the high ball. Leigh Halfpenny’s goal kicking and ability with the ball in the air edges out Stuart Hogg even though Halfpenny is not yet back to his best; Liam Williams can switch from wing.
It must be said that Hogg may be a better attacker than any of my choices bar the talented Williams. Up front, Dylan Hartley’s successful leadership of England and improved form must take him “home” to New Zealand; Fraser Brown is challenging Ken Owens for a hooking place, and Jamie George is a potential bolter. Rory Best’s throws hold him back: the Irish lineout fell apart against Wales.
Richard Hibbard, effectively the incumbent hooker for the Lions Test team and outstanding for Gloucester all season, really should have had a shot but has lost the Gatland wavelength. My team also reflects the current trend to see replacements as finishers, able to make a mighty difference. That is why Gareth Davies is my third-choice scrum-half; why the talented Elliot Daly must surely tour; why up front, Kyle Sinckler, the explosive Harlequin, is worth a shot.
He can make a huge late impact with ball in hand. Ben Youngs, the England scrum-half, would be very unlucky if he loses out, but Davies has the very rare ability to influence games late on when arriving as replacement. Youngs is more of a starter The crowded lock contenders boil down in my team to two Welshmen (Alun Wyn Jones and Luke Charteris, at his best, the best available) and two in-form Englishmen, Courtney Lawes and Joe Launchbury.
The closest Scottish lock to selection here is Jim Hamilton, long forgotten by his national side. Toby Faletau must tour at No 8 because of his prodigious ability, and the list of those I have left out in the back row is frightening — Sean O’Brien, Jamie Heaslip, Ross Moriarty, Justin Tipuric, John Hardie, Ryan Wilson, Nathan Hughes and Chris Robshaw Gatland has all the evidence.
Privately, he would probably love some late shocks in the knockout stages of the main club competitions and the ejection of some top teams to give his front-line men some rest — although it is true that many of the players now fit have indeed had a decent break during the season England (15) have the most players in my squad, and had other close contenders. Scotland have only two. Ireland have seven — Devin Toner, Garry Ringrose, Best and O’Brien have been subdued of late — and Wales 12.
Over to Gatland, for the final, frantic head-scratching. But he also has strength — the recent form of Conor Murray, Jack McGrath, George North, Maro Itoje, Owen Farrell and Jonathan Joseph raises the pleasing prospect of a hardcore of what Sir Ian McGeechan calls Test match animals. Good news. After all, New Zealand’s challenge is a call of the wild.
STEPHEN JONES’ SQUAD
Full-backs R Kearney (Ireland), L Halfpenny (Wales)
Wings A Watson (England), G North (Wales), S Maitland (Scotland), L Williams (Wales)
Centres J Joseph (England), R Henshaw (Ireland), E Daly (England), O Farrell (England), S Williams (Wales)
Fly-halves J Sexton (Ireland), D Biggar (Wales)
Scrum-halves C Murray (Ireland), R Webb (Wales), G Davies (Wales)
No 8 B Vunipola (England), T Faletau (Wales)
Flankers M Itoje (England), J Haskell (England), CJ Stander (Ireland), S Warburton (Wales), J Strauss (Scotland)
Locks AW Jones (Wales), L Charteris (Wales), C Lawes (England), J Launchbury (England)
Hookers D Hartley (England), J George (England), K Owens (Wales)
Props J Marler (England), M Vunipola (England), J McGrath (Ireland), T Furlong (Ireland), D Cole (England), K Sinckler (England ) -
@gollum said in B&I Lions 2017:
The Times writers pick their teams
OWEN SLOT
Lions XVS Hogg; G North, J Joseph, O Farrell, L Williams; J Sexton, C Murray; M Vunipola, J George, T Furlong, AW Jones, M Itoje, CJ Stander, S Warburton, B Vunipola
STUART BARNES
Lions XVS Hogg; G North, J Joseph, O Farrell, A Watson; J Sexton, C Murray; M Vunipola, K Owens, T Furlong, AW Jones, M Itoje, S Warburton, S O’Brien, B Vunipola
ALEX LOWE
Lions XVR Kearney; G North, J Joseph, O Farrell, E Daly; J Sexton, C Murray; J McGrath, R Best, T Furlong, AW Jones, J Launchbury, M Itoje, S Warburton, B Vunipola
JOHN WESTERBY
Lions XV S Hogg; A Watson, R Henshaw, O Farrell, G North; J Sexton, C Murray; M Vunipola, J George, T Furlong, I Henderson, AW Jones, M Itoje, S Warburton, B Vunipola
STEVE JAMES
Lions XVS Hogg; G North, B Te’o, O, Farrell, E Daly; J Sexton, C Murray; M Vunipola, K Owens, T Furlong, M Itoje, AW Jones, CJ Stander, S Warburton, B Vunipola
ALASDAIR REID
Lions XVS Hogg; G North, J Joseph, O Farrell, T Seymour; J Sexton, R Webb; M Vunipola, K Owens, T Furlong, M Itoje, AW Jones, CJ Stander, S O’Brien, B VunipolaAnd as a bonus - Stephen Jones
So, what’s on your in-tray, Warren? In-form men give Lions coach Gatland a boost as he finalises his squad
The hustings are almost over; there are just a few more club occasions for candidates to state their case in front of Warren Gatland. The requirements are the same as they were at the start of the process: this is not any tour, it is the tour, to the harshest environment in rugby. Players chosen have to be more than physical, as hard mentally as they are in body. It is no time for a punt, no time to pick poor defenders, or bad apples.
Only the best 36 will do. Players like George Kruis, the England lock, and WP Nel, the Scotland prop, may well have been chosen but for long-term injury. Both appear to have run out of time to impress Warren Gatland before the squad comes out in early April. So too a long shot in Jake Cooper-Woolley, the Wasps prop who had had a long break with concussion. Another sad feature could well be a dramatic dip in the expected Scottish contingent, with a list of contenders suffering badly from the embarrassing eclipse of the team at Twickenham.
Gatland is thought to rate Josh Strauss, the bearded Glasgow flanker, very highly — and my team includes Sean Maitland, the Scotland wing, with Tommy Seymour and Tim Visser edged out on the wing. But players such as Jonny and Richie Gray at lock were outplayed at Twickenham, in a position where the competition is mighty. Fly-half Finn Russell may well have been overtaken by the sheer class available in that position, with Dan Biggar, Johnny Sexton and Owen Farrell in contention.
George Ford does not make my team for the same reason as Stuart Hogg, the full-back — lack of physical stature in what is a very bruising environment. Huw Jones, the Scottish centre, may yet squeeze into midfield but Gatland may well be forced to decide any 50-50 calls in favour of a Scot to make the squad at least nominally representative. My full-back choices get in on their defence as much as offensive capability because New Zealand kick more than any other team. Rob Kearney is a fearless competitor and faultless under the high ball. Leigh Halfpenny’s goal kicking and ability with the ball in the air edges out Stuart Hogg even though Halfpenny is not yet back to his best; Liam Williams can switch from wing.
It must be said that Hogg may be a better attacker than any of my choices bar the talented Williams. Up front, Dylan Hartley’s successful leadership of England and improved form must take him “home” to New Zealand; Fraser Brown is challenging Ken Owens for a hooking place, and Jamie George is a potential bolter. Rory Best’s throws hold him back: the Irish lineout fell apart against Wales.
Richard Hibbard, effectively the incumbent hooker for the Lions Test team and outstanding for Gloucester all season, really should have had a shot but has lost the Gatland wavelength. My team also reflects the current trend to see replacements as finishers, able to make a mighty difference. That is why Gareth Davies is my third-choice scrum-half; why the talented Elliot Daly must surely tour; why up front, Kyle Sinckler, the explosive Harlequin, is worth a shot.
He can make a huge late impact with ball in hand. Ben Youngs, the England scrum-half, would be very unlucky if he loses out, but Davies has the very rare ability to influence games late on when arriving as replacement. Youngs is more of a starter The crowded lock contenders boil down in my team to two Welshmen (Alun Wyn Jones and Luke Charteris, at his best, the best available) and two in-form Englishmen, Courtney Lawes and Joe Launchbury.
The closest Scottish lock to selection here is Jim Hamilton, long forgotten by his national side. Toby Faletau must tour at No 8 because of his prodigious ability, and the list of those I have left out in the back row is frightening — Sean O’Brien, Jamie Heaslip, Ross Moriarty, Justin Tipuric, John Hardie, Ryan Wilson, Nathan Hughes and Chris Robshaw Gatland has all the evidence.
Privately, he would probably love some late shocks in the knockout stages of the main club competitions and the ejection of some top teams to give his front-line men some rest — although it is true that many of the players now fit have indeed had a decent break during the season England (15) have the most players in my squad, and had other close contenders. Scotland have only two. Ireland have seven — Devin Toner, Garry Ringrose, Best and O’Brien have been subdued of late — and Wales 12.
Over to Gatland, for the final, frantic head-scratching. But he also has strength — the recent form of Conor Murray, Jack McGrath, George North, Maro Itoje, Owen Farrell and Jonathan Joseph raises the pleasing prospect of a hardcore of what Sir Ian McGeechan calls Test match animals. Good news. After all, New Zealand’s challenge is a call of the wild.
STEPHEN JONES’ SQUAD
Full-backs R Kearney (Ireland), L Halfpenny (Wales)
Wings A Watson (England), G North (Wales), S Maitland (Scotland), L Williams (Wales)
Centres J Joseph (England), R Henshaw (Ireland), E Daly (England), O Farrell (England), S Williams (Wales)
Fly-halves J Sexton (Ireland), D Biggar (Wales)
Scrum-halves C Murray (Ireland), R Webb (Wales), G Davies (Wales)
No 8 B Vunipola (England), T Faletau (Wales)
Flankers M Itoje (England), J Haskell (England), CJ Stander (Ireland), S Warburton (Wales), J Strauss (Scotland)
Locks AW Jones (Wales), L Charteris (Wales), C Lawes (England), J Launchbury (England)
Hookers D Hartley (England), J George (England), K Owens (Wales)
Props J Marler (England), M Vunipola (England), J McGrath (Ireland), T Furlong (Ireland), D Cole (England), K Sinckler (England )Christ Walrus, Jim Hamilton getting a mention ahead of the Gray brothers? I suppose picking big trundlers with limited skills is certainly the way to go, Rettalick and Whitelock don't have any after all.
Sean Matiland and Josh Strauss will be thrilled they got in too despite barely playing a game during the Six Nations.
-
@rotated said in B&I Lions 2017:
Has anyone spotted any stabs at the touring party following the last round?
*****Very, very interesting set up following the Irish victory. Streak aside, on balance I think Ireland have the best claims over the past 6-12 months to dominate this squad and the XV.
English fans may want to hear that, but if these fixtures were structured in a different way and the Italy/Ireland performances were weeks 1 and 2 - I think they get less of a rub going into June.*****
Scotland over-performed in the 6N, Ireland have the English and ABs scalp, England just equalled a world record streak and Gats has to show some loyalty to "his guys". So an interesting selection upcoming.
Even more interesting the Lions squad is probably coached by the 4th best coach of the lot, although still not a poor one but with a questionable back room. In hindsight perhaps reuiniting a Schmidt/Cotter ticket would have me a bit more worried.
wait, what? 18 straight, including a GS and another 6 Nations. 3-0 away to Australia. Beat Aus and South Africa at home. What have the Irish done to rival that?
Last 6 Nations they beat Scotland and Italy, and drew with Wales (at home). The lost the series to South Africa in June. Yes, they beat us, but then we beat them at their place. Win over Aus was good. Then this 6N lost to Scotland, and pumped by Wales.
While they are a good team, and have some handy players that deserve to be in the squad, i find your comment to be waaaay over the top.
-
Is Van der Flier not in the mix? I'll be more than happy if they leave him at home.
-
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in B&I Lions 2017:
Is Van der Flier not in the mix? I'll be more than happy if they leave him at home.
He doesn't sound very British so unlikely to travel.
Besides, kiwis would probably protest at yet another Saffa being included in the squad....
😏
-
@mariner4life said in B&I Lions 2017:
@rotated said in B&I Lions 2017:
Has anyone spotted any stabs at the touring party following the last round?
*****Very, very interesting set up following the Irish victory. Streak aside, on balance I think Ireland have the best claims over the past 6-12 months to dominate this squad and the XV.
English fans may want to hear that, but if these fixtures were structured in a different way and the Italy/Ireland performances were weeks 1 and 2 - I think they get less of a rub going into June.*****
Scotland over-performed in the 6N, Ireland have the English and ABs scalp, England just equalled a world record streak and Gats has to show some loyalty to "his guys". So an interesting selection upcoming.
Even more interesting the Lions squad is probably coached by the 4th best coach of the lot, although still not a poor one but with a questionable back room. In hindsight perhaps reuiniting a Schmidt/Cotter ticket would have me a bit more worried.
wait, what? 18 straight, including a GS and another 6 Nations. 3-0 away to Australia. Beat Aus and South Africa at home. What have the Irish done to rival that?
Last 6 Nations they beat Scotland and Italy, and drew with Wales (at home). The lost the series to South Africa in June. Yes, they beat us, but then we beat them at their place. Win over Aus was good. Then this 6N lost to Scotland, and pumped by Wales.
While they are a good team, and have some handy players that deserve to be in the squad, i find your comment to be waaaay over the top.
Definitely see your point. Just going fixture by fixture through their last year or so I just don't see England as a significantly better side. So many games in the streak they just squeezed out.
I kind of put the England/Aus series and the RSA/Ireland series in the same baskets. You have to give England credit for winning two more tests than Ireland but in all six of those tests could have gone either way. To me there isn't a clear class gap between the two.
Feel like you give Ireland a better mark on the EOYT, although England didn't do much wrong. And for this years Six Nations I just kind of felt Ireland played more minutes of better rugby and at a better level. England played absolute shit for long periods (as did Ireland) Italy was farcial, the Welsh effort was woeful apart from the last 10 minutes. Both meandered against he Frogs. All in all they both were lucky to play 80 minutes of quality rugby and most of that was in the Scotland game in England's case.
Don't feel there is much between them, just feel Ireland have a higher gear when they get their shit together - but won't deny England have developed the ability to grind out wins when they have a sniff in the last 20. If both sides were to tour in June I'd give Ireland the better chance of sneaking a test for sure.
-
@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in B&I Lions 2017:
Is Van der Flier not in the mix? I'll be more than happy if they leave him at home.
He doesn't sound very British so unlikely to travel.
Besides, kiwis would probably protest at yet another Saffa being included in the squad....
😏
As mentioned, I won't be crushed if he's left behind. But I'm not sure if I want it to be for racist reasons or the belief that we have an issue with South African Irishmen
-
@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in B&I Lions 2017:
Is Van der Flier not in the mix? I'll be more than happy if they leave him at home.
He doesn't sound very British so unlikely to travel.
Besides, kiwis would probably protest at yet another Saffa being included in the squad....
😏
Not a Saffa, but Irish with Dutch ancestry. His paternal grandparents moved from the Netherlands to Ireland in the 1950s.
-
@rotated I can understand that view, it's certainly a valid argument. I just find the Irish style of play they revert to very quickly to be very limited (the Chicago game seems to be an anomaly) , and England to have more facets to their play. Grinding out wins when you're not playing well is not a bad thing.
I think it's testament to England's improved mental strength that i fully expected them to get up and win that game on the weekend, despite being pretty ordinary all game.
-
@mariner4life said in B&I Lions 2017:
@rotated I can understand that view, it's certainly a valid argument. I just find the Irish style of play they revert to very quickly to be very limited (the Chicago game seems to be an anomaly) , and England to have more facets to their play. Grinding out wins when you're not playing well is not a bad thing.
I think it's testament to England's improved mental strength that i fully expected them to get up and win that game on the weekend, despite being pretty ordinary all game.
I disagree on the facets of play assessment, I think Ireland are able to play at more tempos and have a better counter attack game than England - but perhaps are more easily stifled.
Like you say it's a bit of a conundrum, I give England all the credit in the world for grinding out these wins - they have some seriously improved mental skills to keep grinding out these wins. But the fact they keep needing to do this every week says to me they haven't put daylight between them and the pack.
After considering what you said this English side is very 00-02 Wallabyish (obviously without the reputation a RWC win brings before it). As an AB fan it very tough to say they were comprehensively the best side in the world or even a better side than us - but fuck me they kept the silverware.
-
end of the day , if you are selecting, you have to put aside where they come from and just pick the best players for each position ,
Once you start worrying about where they come from I think you are in trouble
-
@kiwiinmelb said in B&I Lions 2017:
end of the day , if you are selecting, you have to put aside where they come from and just pick the best players for each position ,
Once you start worrying about where they come from I think you are in trouble
Kind of agree with you but there is also the aspect of key combos e.g. the 8,9,10 if playing a tight game or the 10,12 if looking to attack. The 12,13 combo has to come into consideration for defensive organisation as well.
Not saying that you have to make matches there but it would come into your thinking even if just regarding the compatibility of play.
-
@Crucial said in B&I Lions 2017:
@kiwiinmelb said in B&I Lions 2017:
end of the day , if you are selecting, you have to put aside where they come from and just pick the best players for each position ,
Once you start worrying about where they come from I think you are in trouble
Kind of agree with you but there is also the aspect of key combos e.g. the 8,9,10 if playing a tight game or the 10,12 if looking to attack. The 12,13 combo has to come into consideration for defensive organisation as well.
Not saying that you have to make matches there but it would come into your thinking even if just regarding the compatibility of play.
Yep agree with that ,
I was more referring to trying to pick the right numbers from each team to keep people happy , or the thinking England have been the best team so they should have the most players etc,
-
Yeah it's very difficult gelling a Lions squad and team. Often with rugby it is the whole rather than the sum of the parts that is the thing. Add to that the setting aside of ancient rivalries and nationalistic pride and you have quite a problem.
Whilst England have ben the most successful over the last year and a bit, I feel that they are very much an example of the whole being greater than the sum of the parts. Yeah we do have some stand out players but not that many. Take Mike Brown, who has been and ever present has rarely let us down (albeit his game is seemingly going backwards atm) but no-one has mentioned him as a Lions contender and I would agree with that - also I don't see him as being a "good" tourist. Too much Mr Angry.
Ireland and Wales will both have a significant number of players going and hopefully Scotland will have decent representation as well, although injuries may scotch that (pun intended).
-
@Stargazer said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in B&I Lions 2017:
Is Van der Flier not in the mix? I'll be more than happy if they leave him at home.
He doesn't sound very British so unlikely to travel.
Besides, kiwis would probably protest at yet another Saffa being included in the squad....
😏
Not a Saffa, but Irish with Dutch ancestry. His paternal grandparents moved from the Netherlands to Ireland in the 1950s.
Yes I know this.
