So, what HAS Michael Cheika actually done as a coach?

nostrildamus

Actually I like Cheika's antics. 
I think the problem is the captain.

barbarian

It's a classic example of 'live by the sword, die by the sword'.
 
I'll preface these comments by saying that I love Michael Cheika, and this love will never die. He single-handedly took the Waratahs to a Super title, and for that he has my eternal gratitude.
 
When he rose to prominence (first with Leinster and then with the Tahs), his plain-speaking passion was his biggest strength. A post-game presser with Cheik was mesmerising, he had a way of talking that seemed so genuine, so free of the cliched rubbish you'd hear from most coaches.
 
The way he'd motivate players was also incredible. He turned around the careers of Kurtley Beale, Kane Douglas, Cliff Palu, Nick Phipps. I don't know what he said to them, but it all worked.
 
And then he took us to the World Cup Final, and it wasn't a fluke. We were genuinely the second best team in the world last year (though that may say more about the other sides than it does about us).
 
But then the results turned, and all of a sudden this plain-speaking honesty is putting him offiside with many. The same passion and honesty that saw him lauded at the Waratahs and in his first year as Wallaby coach is now 'too much swearing', 'too much complaining', 'too much talk about the ref'.
 
I'm not trying to defend anything he has said (and agree you can never win talking about the ref post-game), but you can't have it both ways.
 
The bloke flies by the seat of his pants, and always has. I think he is a very good coach (his track record is incredible), but for whatever reason things have gone awry. It could get pretty ugly if it keeps getting worse, as Cheika isn't going to turn into Captain Cliche all of a sudden - 'it's disappointing, but we will just work harder' 'full credit to the opposition' 'we tried really hard out there' etc etc etc
 
I think we are seeing a man trying to make sense of his crumbling empire in real time, and it's equal parts excrutiating and fascinating. We don't have the answers, and neither does he. And predictably he's not taking it well.

NTA

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A post-game presser with Cheik was mesmerising, he had a way of talking that seemed so genuine, so free of the cliched rubbish you'd hear from most coaches.
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I know you've done some of those pressers. What is the atmosphere like among the journos when Cheika is in there? Does it depend on the result? 
 
Have you done any non-Cheik pressers?

NTA

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="barbarian" data-cid="611615" data-time="1472859159">
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The bloke flies by the seat of his pants, and always has. I think he is a very good coach (his track record is incredible), but for whatever reason things have gone awry. It could get pretty ugly if it keeps getting worse, as Cheika isn't going to turn into Captain Cliche all of a sudden - 'it's disappointing, but we will just work harder' 'full credit to the opposition' 'we tried really hard out there' etc etc etc
 
I think we are seeing a man trying to make sense of his crumbling empire in real time, and it's equal parts excrutiating and fascinating. We don't have the answers, and neither does he. And predictably he's not taking it well.
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I think we can draw a line under "Super Rugby Coaches" as one of the issues in terms of player preparedness. Sure, Cheika had a month to clean the slate and start again, but I saw a tweet not long ago, I think from Paul Cully, saying basically "Is anyone surprised by these results, after the way each Super franchise went about their business?"
 
In other Aussie rugby news, I see Holloway got Tahs forward of the year (obviously behind Hooper who was Player of the Year), despite playing about half a season due to some niggles and then the big shoulder injury in training.
 
So the question remains: how much longer can Cheika ignore him?

barbarian

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="611618" data-time="1472859615">
So the question remains: how much longer can Cheika ignore him?
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He's out for another 10 weeks or so with a shoulder injury.

barbarian

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="611617" data-time="1472859407">
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I know you've done some of those pressers. What is the atmosphere like among the journos when Cheika is in there? Does it depend on the result? 
 
Have you done any non-Cheik pressers?
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</blockquote>
 
It's hard to describe. The atmosphere is more or less the same, but he just has a different way of speaking. I think he's a bit more in tune with the fans, and whenever the team loses he always speaks about 'letting the fans down' or 'disappointing the fans'. There is an awareness that they are in the entertainment business, and have to provide something people want to watch.
 
I've covered the Tahs since the Chris Hickey days, so have seen four different coaches now. It's not that the others are boring per se, just that Cheika pressers were always a bit more unpredictable. He'd talk a lot more about attitude and intent. And he had an authority about him that the others didn't. A presence. It's hard to describe, but you could understand why players would run through walls for him.

kiwiinmelb

When we judge coaches , 
Is your success against the current Allblacks an unfair measuring tool ? 
if you were a basketball coach for example , no matter how good you are , your team would more than likely look second rate against the dream team . 
Gatland and Cheika have both been victims of the abs so far this year , do we hold that against them or accept they are on a hiding to nothing ?

barbarian

Maybe. It's an issue faced by all Wallabies coaches - no matter how good you are, the ABs will always be your measuring stick. And 80-90% of the time you are likely to fall short.
 
It's funny, because Steve Hanson's coaching record with Wales was pretty poor. Shows how fickle the coaching game can be.

NTA

The judgement is more about attitude than results. Some of the stuff against England and the ABs have made the Wallabies look disinterested, or just plain unfit and unwilling to take on the hard work.
 
Its hard to measure your team when you look at the opposition, and see players just suddenly hitting their straps, while ours seemed to all find their shit gear at the same time.
 
How does that happen? How do we get that same translation from state to national level in Australia? Why isn't it there already? Is incumbency an issue; do the lack of options make players too comfortable as has happened in years past?
 
 
We'll know in about 8 days' time where we sit when the Boks come to visit. I don't think Cheika suddenly becomes a bad coach, but something is missing this year so far, and maybe a Bok squad hampered by a few injuries and their special brand of politics could be ground zero for a rebuild.
 
 
 
 
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="barbarian" data-cid="611623" data-time="1472860804">
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He's out for another 10 weeks or so with a shoulder injury.
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I meant once he was fit again. We lack a form #8 in Australia. In any case, 10 weeks? I heard late October...

barbarian

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="611637" data-time="1472864705">
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I meant once he was fit again. We lack a form #8 in Australia. In any case, 10 weeks? I heard late October...
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He was at a media event I was doing for work the other day. Had a chat and he said he was still a long time away, 10 weeks was what he said.
 
A shame, a good NRC and he could have pushed for a spot on the EOYT.

NTA

Not even sure that would help - he was probably the form 8 in Australia but Cheika didn't take him to any camps.

taniwharugby

well, on the subject of coaches, Ian Foster has confirmed he is keen on the top job once Hansen leaves the building! 
 
Not sure how I feel about that, but then, there was a time when alot of people werent keen on the thought of Hansen taking over either...
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/veitch-on-sport/audio/ian-foster-head-coach-of-the-all-blacks/'>http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/veitch-on-sport/audio/ian-foster-head-coach-of-the-all-blacks/</a>

antipodean

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="611656" data-time="1472872655">
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well, on the subject of coaches, Ian Foster has confirmed he is keen on the top job once Hansen leaves the building! 
 
Not sure how I feel about that, but then, there was a time when alot of people werent keen on the thought of Hansen taking over either...
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/veitch-on-sport/audio/ian-foster-head-coach-of-the-all-blacks/'>http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/veitch-on-sport/audio/ian-foster-head-coach-of-the-all-blacks/</a>
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I don't understand the reticence - Hansen's on record saying that Foster does the majority of the actual coaching these days.
 
I wonder if Foster would have won a Super title with the assistance of Wayne Smith?

Tregaskis

Its seems a reality to say that Foster is a far better coach now than in the period 2004-11 and will be even better by 2019. He'll have served a tremendous apprenticeship by the time 2019 rolls around. He's pretty clearly a very strong chance to succeed Shag and there's [I assume] no doubt that the players would back him given his direct involvement with them over a sustained period of time given the excellence produced by the organisation.

You'd have to think that the Rennies and Josephs of the world are going to lose some connection with the players while coaching overseas, and that Schmidt, if he coaches SR, and Boyd / Plumtree ticket would advance in that regard (simply by being recently involved with current players). That being said, I doubt a coaching candidate can get a reference by video from Sam Whitelock et al to advance his application.

The continuity strategy has worked particularly well in the Hansen era. We'll get a big fat clue if Foster signs on post 2017 (is that his contract status?) or is replaced.

Chris B.

@kiwiinmelb said in So, what HAS Michael Cheika actually done as a coach?:

When we judge coaches ,
Is your success against the current Allblacks an unfair measuring tool ?
if you were a basketball coach for example , no matter how good you are , your team would more than likely look second rate against the dream team .
Gatland and Cheika have both been victims of the abs so far this year , do we hold that against them or accept they are on a hiding to nothing ?

That was the standard that Robbie got held to - plenty of people were keeping count.

At present, I'm inclined to think teams should adopt the same policy I suggested for us when we periodically used to get thumped by Steve Waugh's Australians. Pick your best team and try your best, but don't make any future selection decisions based on the humping.

mimic

i dont know if it's been mentioned yet, but NRL Melbourne Storm winger Marika Koroibete will be in the Aussie EOYT squad..
Cheika making moves already

Nepia

@Chris-B. said in So, what HAS Michael Cheika actually done as a coach?:

@kiwiinmelb said in So, what HAS Michael Cheika actually done as a coach?:

When we judge coaches ,
Is your success against the current Allblacks an unfair measuring tool ?
if you were a basketball coach for example , no matter how good you are , your team would more than likely look second rate against the dream team .
Gatland and Cheika have both been victims of the abs so far this year , do we hold that against them or accept they are on a hiding to nothing ?

That was the standard that Robbie got held to - plenty of people were keeping count.

At present, I'm inclined to think teams should adopt the same policy I suggested for us when we periodically used to get thumped by Steve Waugh's Australians. Pick your best team and try your best, but don't make any future selection decisions based on the humping.

That's because you blokes down south told us for the preceding 10 years that he was the Messiah and Mohammad all rolled in to one.

antipodean

@mimic said in So, what HAS Michael Cheika actually done as a coach?:

i dont know if it's been mentioned yet, but NRL Melbourne Storm winger Marika Koroibete will be in the Aussie EOYT squad..
Cheika making moves already

Has he played a game yet? Once the NRL season is over, there will be no rugby until he goes on the EOYT.

He's reportedly on $700K too, which isn't bad for a replaceable NRL winger with a history of injury. Seems the ARU has buckets of available cash after propping up their Super Rugby franchises.

Chris B.

@Nepia said in So, what HAS Michael Cheika actually done as a coach?:

That's because you blokes down south told us for the preceding 10 years that he was the Messiah and Mohammad all rolled in to one.

He was. A man who could turn water into wine, but he still couldn't much help the Wallabies.

I see he won everything in Japan last season. He's doing it for a hobby now.

KiwiMurph

@mimic In relation to Koroibete - while fast tracking straight into the Wallabies is a sign of their desperation, they really do lack any speed or true attacking ability on the wings - one thing Koroibete will give them is speed.

The Silver Fern

So, what HAS Michael Cheika actually done as a coach?