All Blacks 2024
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
Context matters a bit too though.
Since the 2019 world cup we've played the South Africans 8 times in anger (I'm not counting the RWC warm up exhibition game)
And while the ledger reads 3-5 the points difference is zero (or maybe 1). And we've played them once at home, 4 times in south africa and 3 neutral. That's pretty good against this so called generational SA team.France we haven't played outside France since 2018. And I'll let you guess when the last time they beat us prior to that 2021 win.
We're very close to the equal of any side at the moment but we're just not quite getting over the line. There isn't a gulf to cross.
I would expect us to go close to 5-0 getting to play France and SA in NZ next year.
Im fond of you as a poster Mariner but I have to disagree.
Apathy is seeping in from the top down....from the stands to the board room to the pitch.
Valiant losers seems to be an acceptable visage for us to portray these days. It's simply unacceptable.
I think forums like this attract a certain demographic and maybe we as fans climbed our Everest in 2011 and 2015. Everything after that for us is a bonus.
But lets call a spade a spade.
We should be seething.
This is not the high performance unit that books and documentaries were based on.
Its a rogues gallery of old war horses over staying their welcomes, teachers pets and square pegs in round holes being led around by a vibes guy playing rag tag piano.
You give AJ Lam and Sean Stevenson (to pick two off the top of my head) to Andy Farrell or Joe Schmidt and watch what they could do with them.
We are trapped in amber.
Razor has it in him, but he needs to grow a pair of bollocks.
Winners fuck the prom queen.
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@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
I also think there is a tangible lack of nasty bastards in our team.
The Allblacks are just nice these days. They smell nice, they look nice, they play nice.
Its all very milquetoast.
Yeah I feel like D Coles was the last old-school type of player that gave it to the other team.
If you look at Wellington's success in 2022, 2024 a player like Kirifi was at the centre of that. He's a bit of a dog and if a player who has mongrel can channel that in the right way it can pay massive dividends. I can't think of any player like that in the ABs atm.
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@Jet It sounds like you haven't been following NZ Rugby all that long and so have not had to endure mediocrity before.
It's not apathy or defeatism to accept that some of the traditional advantages we had over other nations have been lost due to the game going professional. As our national sport we were more 'professional' than other countries. We paid attention to things like nutrition training etc more than others. We worked on skills for all 15 players not just the fancy dan backs.
These advantages have gone and are unlikely to return. We can't expect to be fitter, faster, stronger than our opponents. NH props no longer carry beer kegs around with them as they lumber from set piece to set piece. Our opponents are also as skilled in the main as we are. Through more exposure to our players and coaches the bar has been raised.
This is nothing new. Aussie improved dramatically once their players got constant game experience against ours. Look at Argentina since joining the RC.
Meanwhile the game in NZ has stagnated. We are not getting exposure below test level to different playing styles. Our coaching has lost its edge. We exported a lot of IP yet we seem to think (institutionally) that we can learn nothing from overseas.
Yet none of this in unprecedented our unable to improve very quickly. The 70's were the worst years of AB results in my lifetime. We were shockingly poor all too often. Yet once we got the right coach and drafted in some young blood to the team we went from packing down 3 man scrums because were were so poor to Grand Slam winners in just over 12 months.
Sound familiar?
Keep the faith.
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@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2024:
Meanwhile the game in NZ has stagnated. We are not getting exposure below test level to different playing styles. Our coaching has lost its edge. We exported a lot of IP yet we seem to think (institutionally) that we can learn nothing from overseas.
Spot on!
Edit: I mean in terms of diagnosing the challenges. We need Super to be strong again - and I am not convinced this NZR governance will achieve that. Silverlake was potentially massive for that, but we have not seen it positively contribute yet
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@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
Context matters a bit too though.
Since the 2019 world cup we've played the South Africans 8 times in anger (I'm not counting the RWC warm up exhibition game)
And while the ledger reads 3-5 the points difference is zero (or maybe 1). And we've played them once at home, 4 times in south africa and 3 neutral. That's pretty good against this so called generational SA team.France we haven't played outside France since 2018. And I'll let you guess when the last time they beat us prior to that 2021 win.
We're very close to the equal of any side at the moment but we're just not quite getting over the line. There isn't a gulf to cross.
I would expect us to go close to 5-0 getting to play France and SA in NZ next year.
Im fond of you as a poster Mariner but I have to disagree.
Apathy is seeping in from the top down....from the stands to the board room to the pitch.
Valiant losers seems to be an acceptable visage for us to portray these days. It's simply unacceptable.
I think forums like this attract a certain demographic and maybe we as fans climbed our Everest in 2011 and 2015. Everything after that for us is a bonus.
But lets call a spade a spade.
We should be seething.
This is not the high performance unit that books and documentaries were based on.
Its a rogues gallery of old war horses over staying their welcomes, teachers pets and square pegs in round holes being led around by a vibes guy playing rag tag piano.
You give AJ Lam and Sean Stevenson (to pick two off the top of my head) to Andy Farrell or Joe Schmidt and watch what they could do with them.
We are trapped in amber.
Razor has it in him, but he needs to grow a pair of bollocks.
Winners fuck the prom queen.
Joe Schmidt? Yeah he’s busy sculpting world-beaters as we speak… 🙄
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@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet It sounds like you haven't been following NZ Rugby all that long and so have not had to endure mediocrity before.
It's not apathy or defeatism to accept that some of the traditional advantages we had over other nations have been lost due to the game going professional. As our national sport we were more 'professional' than other countries. We paid attention to things like nutrition training etc more than others. We worked on skills for all 15 players not just the fancy dan backs.
These advantages have gone and are unlikely to return. We can't expect to be fitter, faster, stronger than our opponents. NH props no longer carry beer kegs around with them as they lumber from set piece to set piece. Our opponents are also as skilled in the main as we are. Through more exposure to our players and coaches the bar has been raised.
This is nothing new. Aussie improved dramatically once their players got constant game experience against ours. Look at Argentina since joining the RC.
Meanwhile the game in NZ has stagnated. We are not getting exposure below test level to different playing styles. Our coaching has lost its edge. We exported a lot of IP yet we seem to think (institutionally) that we can learn nothing from overseas.
Yet none of this in unprecedented our unable to improve very quickly. The 70's were the worst years of AB results in my lifetime. We were shockingly poor all too often. Yet once we got the right coach and drafted in some young blood to the team we went from packing down 3 man scrums because were were so poor to Grand Slam winners in just over 12 months.
Sound familiar?
Keep the faith.
Funny how things come around. My dad remembers the star studded B&I Lions tour of 1971, where they showed us how to play champagne running rugby. Historically we were 10 man exponents.
I feel we have made strides, and there is a lot of young talent coming through. But Razor has to get out of his own way and stop focussing on trivialities like pining for overseas players and such
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet It sounds like you haven't been following NZ Rugby all that long and so have not had to endure mediocrity before.
It's not apathy or defeatism to accept that some of the traditional advantages we had over other nations have been lost due to the game going professional. As our national sport we were more 'professional' than other countries. We paid attention to things like nutrition training etc more than others. We worked on skills for all 15 players not just the fancy dan backs.
These advantages have gone and are unlikely to return. We can't expect to be fitter, faster, stronger than our opponents. NH props no longer carry beer kegs around with them as they lumber from set piece to set piece. Our opponents are also as skilled in the main as we are. Through more exposure to our players and coaches the bar has been raised.
This is nothing new. Aussie improved dramatically once their players got constant game experience against ours. Look at Argentina since joining the RC.
Meanwhile the game in NZ has stagnated. We are not getting exposure below test level to different playing styles. Our coaching has lost its edge. We exported a lot of IP yet we seem to think (institutionally) that we can learn nothing from overseas.
Yet none of this in unprecedented our unable to improve very quickly. The 70's were the worst years of AB results in my lifetime. We were shockingly poor all too often. Yet once we got the right coach and drafted in some young blood to the team we went from packing down 3 man scrums because were were so poor to Grand Slam winners in just over 12 months.
Sound familiar?
Keep the faith.
Funny how things come around. My dad remembers the star studded B&I Lions tour of 1971, where they showed us how to play champagne running rugby. Historically we were 10 man exponents.
I feel we have made strides, and there is a lot of young talent coming through. But Razor has to get out of his own way and stop focussing on trivialities like pining for overseas players and such
TBH, I think that's a slight historical myth, Fred Allen's 1960s ABs were exponents of running rugby.
On Razor, yeah, I'm the same, I'm not writing him off after this year, but I'm still criticising him for what I see as poor decisions most especially Sotutu and his wanking on about overseas players just to get an overrated 10 back.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet It sounds like you haven't been following NZ Rugby all that long and so have not had to endure mediocrity before.
It's not apathy or defeatism to accept that some of the traditional advantages we had over other nations have been lost due to the game going professional. As our national sport we were more 'professional' than other countries. We paid attention to things like nutrition training etc more than others. We worked on skills for all 15 players not just the fancy dan backs.
These advantages have gone and are unlikely to return. We can't expect to be fitter, faster, stronger than our opponents. NH props no longer carry beer kegs around with them as they lumber from set piece to set piece. Our opponents are also as skilled in the main as we are. Through more exposure to our players and coaches the bar has been raised.
This is nothing new. Aussie improved dramatically once their players got constant game experience against ours. Look at Argentina since joining the RC.
Meanwhile the game in NZ has stagnated. We are not getting exposure below test level to different playing styles. Our coaching has lost its edge. We exported a lot of IP yet we seem to think (institutionally) that we can learn nothing from overseas.
Yet none of this in unprecedented our unable to improve very quickly. The 70's were the worst years of AB results in my lifetime. We were shockingly poor all too often. Yet once we got the right coach and drafted in some young blood to the team we went from packing down 3 man scrums because were were so poor to Grand Slam winners in just over 12 months.
Sound familiar?
Keep the faith.
Funny how things come around. My dad remembers the star studded B&I Lions tour of 1971, where they showed us how to play champagne running rugby. Historically we were 10 man exponents.
I feel we have made strides, and there is a lot of young talent coming through. But Razor has to get out of his own way and stop focussing on trivialities like pining for overseas players and such
TBH, I think that's a slight historical myth, Fred Allen's 1960s ABs were exponents of running rugby.
On Razor, yeah, I'm the same, I'm not writing him off after this year, but I'm still criticising him for what I see as poor decisions most especially Sotutu and his wanking on about overseas players just to get an overrated 10 back.
I'll make a note to have a stern word with CF Sr the next time I see him, and correct him ! 😁. In his defence, perhaps I misunderstood. But I remember him telling me how they had very good backs on that tour
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet It sounds like you haven't been following NZ Rugby all that long and so have not had to endure mediocrity before.
It's not apathy or defeatism to accept that some of the traditional advantages we had over other nations have been lost due to the game going professional. As our national sport we were more 'professional' than other countries. We paid attention to things like nutrition training etc more than others. We worked on skills for all 15 players not just the fancy dan backs.
These advantages have gone and are unlikely to return. We can't expect to be fitter, faster, stronger than our opponents. NH props no longer carry beer kegs around with them as they lumber from set piece to set piece. Our opponents are also as skilled in the main as we are. Through more exposure to our players and coaches the bar has been raised.
This is nothing new. Aussie improved dramatically once their players got constant game experience against ours. Look at Argentina since joining the RC.
Meanwhile the game in NZ has stagnated. We are not getting exposure below test level to different playing styles. Our coaching has lost its edge. We exported a lot of IP yet we seem to think (institutionally) that we can learn nothing from overseas.
Yet none of this in unprecedented our unable to improve very quickly. The 70's were the worst years of AB results in my lifetime. We were shockingly poor all too often. Yet once we got the right coach and drafted in some young blood to the team we went from packing down 3 man scrums because were were so poor to Grand Slam winners in just over 12 months.
Sound familiar?
Keep the faith.
Funny how things come around. My dad remembers the star studded B&I Lions tour of 1971, where they showed us how to play champagne running rugby. Historically we were 10 man exponents.
I feel we have made strides, and there is a lot of young talent coming through. But Razor has to get out of his own way and stop focussing on trivialities like pining for overseas players and such
TBH, I think that's a slight historical myth, Fred Allen's 1960s ABs were exponents of running rugby.
On Razor, yeah, I'm the same, I'm not writing him off after this year, but I'm still criticising him for what I see as poor decisions most especially Sotutu and his wanking on about overseas players just to get an overrated 10 back.
I'll make a note to have a stern word with CF Sr the next time I see him, and correct him ! 😁. In his defence, perhaps I misunderstood. But I remember him telling me how they had very good backs on that tour
Oh I actually think that's a historical myth outside of CF Sr - and they did have cracking backs from all reports. But it's like 1970 erased all memories of the previous 3 years.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
The passes from the tight forward are 50/50 often going either behind the player losing momentum or not to the player at all.
Sure some come off but half of them put us on the back foot
Three posts ago you were arguing that they should know how to pass by now?
That comment I meant for the backs. That's still a problem for them too when it shouldn't be. Tight forwards shouldn't be expected to assist in backline moves
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet It sounds like you haven't been following NZ Rugby all that long and so have not had to endure mediocrity before.
It's not apathy or defeatism to accept that some of the traditional advantages we had over other nations have been lost due to the game going professional. As our national sport we were more 'professional' than other countries. We paid attention to things like nutrition training etc more than others. We worked on skills for all 15 players not just the fancy dan backs.
These advantages have gone and are unlikely to return. We can't expect to be fitter, faster, stronger than our opponents. NH props no longer carry beer kegs around with them as they lumber from set piece to set piece. Our opponents are also as skilled in the main as we are. Through more exposure to our players and coaches the bar has been raised.
This is nothing new. Aussie improved dramatically once their players got constant game experience against ours. Look at Argentina since joining the RC.
Meanwhile the game in NZ has stagnated. We are not getting exposure below test level to different playing styles. Our coaching has lost its edge. We exported a lot of IP yet we seem to think (institutionally) that we can learn nothing from overseas.
Yet none of this in unprecedented our unable to improve very quickly. The 70's were the worst years of AB results in my lifetime. We were shockingly poor all too often. Yet once we got the right coach and drafted in some young blood to the team we went from packing down 3 man scrums because were were so poor to Grand Slam winners in just over 12 months.
Sound familiar?
Keep the faith.
Funny how things come around. My dad remembers the star studded B&I Lions tour of 1971, where they showed us how to play champagne running rugby. Historically we were 10 man exponents.
I feel we have made strides, and there is a lot of young talent coming through. But Razor has to get out of his own way and stop focussing on trivialities like pining for overseas players and such
TBH, I think that's a slight historical myth, Fred Allen's 1960s ABs were exponents of running rugby.
On Razor, yeah, I'm the same, I'm not writing him off after this year, but I'm still criticising him for what I see as poor decisions most especially Sotutu and his wanking on about overseas players just to get an overrated 10 back.
I'll make a note to have a stern word with CF Sr the next time I see him, and correct him ! 😁. In his defence, perhaps I misunderstood. But I remember him telling me how they had very good backs on that tour
SJ Sr told me the same thing. They certainly won over the NZ rugby public at the time.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
The passes from the tight forward are 50/50 often going either behind the player losing momentum or not to the player at all.
Sure some come off but half of them put us on the back foot
Three posts ago you were arguing that they should know how to pass by now?
That comment I meant for the backs. That's still a problem for them too when it shouldn't be. Tight forwards shouldn't be expected to assist in backline moves
Apart from off set piece, is there such a thing now? And, my comment stands for rugby players, it's not positional.
I also can't see how we'll have effective phase play if we don't have forwards who can effectively handle the ball, that's exactly where the NH has caught up.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
The passes from the tight forward are 50/50 often going either behind the player losing momentum or not to the player at all.
Sure some come off but half of them put us on the back foot
Three posts ago you were arguing that they should know how to pass by now?
That comment I meant for the backs. That's still a problem for them too when it shouldn't be. Tight forwards shouldn't be expected to assist in backline moves
Apart from off set piece, is there such a thing now? And, my comment stands for rugby players, it's not positional.
I also can't see how we'll have effective phase play if we don't have forwards who can effectively handle the ball, that's exactly where the NH has caught up.
Yup forwards should mostly do moves with forwards.
The Crusaders used the same pattern the ABs used extensively this year and had the same issues. The Blues rarely used the 'out the back door' pattern. The proof is in the pudding.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
The passes from the tight forward are 50/50 often going either behind the player losing momentum or not to the player at all.
Sure some come off but half of them put us on the back foot
Three posts ago you were arguing that they should know how to pass by now?
That comment I meant for the backs. That's still a problem for them too when it shouldn't be. Tight forwards shouldn't be expected to assist in backline moves
Apart from off set piece, is there such a thing now? And, my comment stands for rugby players, it's not positional.
I also can't see how we'll have effective phase play if we don't have forwards who can effectively handle the ball, that's exactly where the NH has caught up.
Yup forwards should mostly do moves with forwards.
The Crusaders used the same pattern the ABs used extensively this year and had the same issues. The Blues rarely used the 'out the back door' pattern. The proof is in the pudding.
Moving goalposts here.
Even the Blues Attack structure has forwards participating in phase play.
So, is your point that you don't like our pod system with down runners and the guy on the wrap?
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2024:
On Razor, yeah, I'm the same, I'm not writing him off after this year, but I'm still criticising him for what I see as poor decisions most especially Sotutu and his wanking on about overseas players just to get an overrated 10 back
Fucking ALL of this.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet It sounds like you haven't been following NZ Rugby all that long and so have not had to endure mediocrity before.
It's not apathy or defeatism to accept that some of the traditional advantages we had over other nations have been lost due to the game going professional. As our national sport we were more 'professional' than other countries. We paid attention to things like nutrition training etc more than others. We worked on skills for all 15 players not just the fancy dan backs.
These advantages have gone and are unlikely to return. We can't expect to be fitter, faster, stronger than our opponents. NH props no longer carry beer kegs around with them as they lumber from set piece to set piece. Our opponents are also as skilled in the main as we are. Through more exposure to our players and coaches the bar has been raised.
This is nothing new. Aussie improved dramatically once their players got constant game experience against ours. Look at Argentina since joining the RC.
Meanwhile the game in NZ has stagnated. We are not getting exposure below test level to different playing styles. Our coaching has lost its edge. We exported a lot of IP yet we seem to think (institutionally) that we can learn nothing from overseas.
Yet none of this in unprecedented our unable to improve very quickly. The 70's were the worst years of AB results in my lifetime. We were shockingly poor all too often. Yet once we got the right coach and drafted in some young blood to the team we went from packing down 3 man scrums because were were so poor to Grand Slam winners in just over 12 months.
Sound familiar?
Keep the faith.
Funny how things come around. My dad remembers the star studded B&I Lions tour of 1971, where they showed us how to play champagne running rugby. Historically we were 10 man exponents.
I feel we have made strides, and there is a lot of young talent coming through. But Razor has to get out of his own way and stop focussing on trivialities like pining for overseas players and such
TBH, I think that's a slight historical myth, Fred Allen's 1960s ABs were exponents of running rugby.
On Razor, yeah, I'm the same, I'm not writing him off after this year, but I'm still criticising him for what I see as poor decisions most especially Sotutu and his wanking on about overseas players just to get an overrated 10 back.
Without getting into arguments, as someone who was around in 60s, even as a kid, I seem to recall a few handy backs in those days, remember being impressed with Ian McRae and Davis in midfield, remember seeing them play when on a school rugby trip to Hawkes Bay. But the honest truth is there was bigger all decent tv coverage (none live) and so most was what we heard or read about as most people saw 1 test a year if they were lucky.
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Great analysis.
The '70's were an awful, awful time which makes these last 4 or 5 years look like a golden age. It took years until the penny dropped. That said, the 3-man scrum was devised by the new blood and was arguably a turning point - it showed someone was sitting down and doing some smart, original, innovative thinking.
Where are the leaders and coaches able to do that today?
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
Funny how things come around. My dad remembers the star studded B&I Lions tour of 1971, where they showed us how to play champagne running rugby. Historically we were 10 man exponents.
We had very much moved away from a 10 man game under Fred Allen. When we lost a few games, some NZ coaches wanted to go back to 10 man rugby while others like Bill Freeman and Eric Watson were already playing Lions-style rugby and wanted to move forward.
We were shit until the old guard lost the argument.
