All Blacks 2024
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@Darth-Sader said in All Blacks 2024:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby you say 'let's see what Super Rugby brings'
A number of guys carved up in Super Rugby this year and were barely given an opportunity.
Lam
Love
ProctorEtc etc
And the irony is - for the most part - the guys who were given a shot in black on the back of Super rugby form looked good.
Meanwhile these established guys rack up test after test with mediocrity (Havili, ALB, Rieko, Jacobson etc).
Havili and ALB have had their time. Absolutely need to introduce new options there. Neither offers enough. Reiko still has something in him, but how do we unlock it consistently?
Not have a gameplan that not only asks him to crash ball, but to receive passes at the same time as he gets tackled. Fastest bloke on the team and that's the genius level coaching maximising player's strengths.
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2024:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
i feel like the NZ rugby media is trying to gaslight me
Paul Cully did a World XV article today, and put the "consistently excellent" Ardie Savea in it. At openside. The fuck?
He also added Wallace Sititi, which in itself is not a terrible call, but at #8?Apparently Rob Valetini doesn't exist aye Paul?
i had a discussion with someone this week who insisted "everyone" knows BB has been consistently excellent this year.....i feel like im going insane
further to this, i just saw a post on the International rugby facebook group, someone claiming razor had done well and was building for the future....and a series of replies talking about a young squad and great building and i feel like im going insane!
why not go for youth this year...why wait for next year? people seemto think it makes perfect sense....
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
Also Jordie Barrett the play maker?? with that passing game and that decision making? riiiight
Jordie has been underwhelming all year, I said it at the end of the Canes season. Don’t get me wrong Jordie has his moments but he’s not a playmaker and his decision making is horrible. He also has a long history of fluffing shit up when the pressure comes on.
I feel like Razor has the Barrett’s permanently penciled into his 15 and there’s no changing his mind, especially considering one of them is the captain. I’m happy to throw it out there, I’ don’t think any of them should be in our starting side atm and there’s a couple more names in that boat as well.
What could have been if we actually fking picked on form.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
France and South Africa have some serious depth and high calibre players.
They're tough, smart and they use their bench well. I think their playmakers/game managers are better than ours.
So good they barely scrape past us ...
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@booboo said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
France and South Africa have some serious depth and high calibre players.
They're tough, smart and they use their bench well. I think their playmakers/game managers are better than ours.
So good they barely scrape past us ...
France have beat us comfortably the previous two times. They had a bunch of key players out in the game we just played and I don't think they got our of third gear.
South Africa beat us with their A team and their B team.
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@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2024:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
Also Jordie Barrett the play maker?? with that passing game and that decision making? riiiight
Jordie has been underwhelming all year, I said it at the end of the Canes season. Don’t get me wrong Jordie has his moments but he’s not a playmaker and his decision making is horrible. He also has a long history of fluffing shit up when the pressure comes on.
I feel like Razor has the Barrett’s permanently penciled into his 15 and there’s no changing his mind, especially considering one of them is the captain. I’m happy to throw it out there, I’ don’t think any of them should be in our starting side atm and there’s a couple more names in that boat as well.
What could have been if we actually fking picked on form.
Jordie is also not that great at what he’s supposedly really good at ( carting the ball up )
Other international midfielders do it far better.
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@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2024:
I feel like Razor has the Barrett’s permanently penciled into his 15 and there’s no changing his mind, especially considering one of them is the captain. I’m happy to throw it out there, I’ don’t think any of them should be in our starting side atm and there’s a couple more names in that boat as well.
He won't even sub Beaudy off the field.
We only won at Twickenham because Beauden was forced off of the field with a HIA - forcing Telea back on the field who then scored the match winning try (never mind Telea was subbed off whilst having his best test in 2024....)
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@booboo said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
France and South Africa have some serious depth and high calibre players.
They're tough, smart and they use their bench well. I think their playmakers/game managers are better than ours.
So good they barely scrape past us ...
Scary to think what we could have done if we'd picked the best players and had a decent test match suitable gameplan
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2024:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2024:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
Also Jordie Barrett the play maker?? with that passing game and that decision making? riiiight
Jordie has been underwhelming all year, I said it at the end of the Canes season. Don’t get me wrong Jordie has his moments but he’s not a playmaker and his decision making is horrible. He also has a long history of fluffing shit up when the pressure comes on.
I feel like Razor has the Barrett’s permanently penciled into his 15 and there’s no changing his mind, especially considering one of them is the captain. I’m happy to throw it out there, I’ don’t think any of them should be in our starting side atm and there’s a couple more names in that boat as well.
What could have been if we actually fking picked on form.
Jordie is also not that great at what he’s supposedly really good at ( carting the ball up )
Other international midfielders do it far better.
Definitely had a down year. I'm not sure it will get better with him taking his OE
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@Darth-Sader said in All Blacks 2024:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby you say 'let's see what Super Rugby brings'
A number of guys carved up in Super Rugby this year and were barely given an opportunity.
Lam
Love
ProctorEtc etc
And the irony is - for the most part - the guys who were given a shot in black on the back of Super rugby form looked good.
Meanwhile these established guys rack up test after test with mediocrity (Havili, ALB, Rieko, Jacobson etc).
Havili and ALB have had their time. Absolutely need to introduce new options there. Neither offers enough. Reiko still has something in him, but how do we unlock it consistently?
Give him some time and space for one thing. Plummer seemed to do it during Super. Of course the Blues backs stood a little deeper
I am not sure about RI getting more space in Super rugby. That's not how the Blues used their midfield. I recall asking Blue's fans during the season if they were happy with RI's form, because I had noticed him being rather inconspicuous. The gist of the replies suggested he was doing the tight stuff.
Also, from memory, RI didn't score a try during the Super Season. That too would suggest he wasn't playing in space.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
France and South Africa have some serious depth and high calibre players.
They're tough, smart and they use their bench well. I think their playmakers/game managers are better than ours.
So good they barely scrape past us ...
France have beat us comfortably the previous two times. They had a bunch of key players out in the game we just played and I don't think they got our of third gear.
South Africa beat us with their A team and their B team.
It really is a trend to talk up anyone but NZ.
We had guys out of all those games too.
So what?
They played with their best available and barely scraped past us. It fact France were outplayed for most of the game against us according to the stats. But it is cool to run the ABs down.
It's like listening to early 2000s Radio Sport with Willie Lose on talkback.
Fair point: we expect more from the ABs and they should be performing better given the sum of their parts.
But it just shits me that we can't recognise when we're doing good, and over estimate how well opposition are going.
From what I've read we lost 9 of our tests this year (all 3 v Eng, Ireland, Bled I, plus the four we did actually lose) and probably also lost the other 5 because, well just because we're not 2015 level ...
The only REAL blot was Arg I. And to me that was a failure of expectation. When we got ahead and on top of them we got overexcited and made lazy errors. I said at the time we were 30 pints better than them (and we were), we just let them (kind of insisted they) score a few more than us.
Again, Razor has not YET produced the level of performance we expect, but it's not mid-Fozzie era ineffectuality (not sure if that's a word ... it is now 😀 ).
I've seen development in our patterns.
I'd like to see:
- DMac at 10 and talk of Mo'unga discontinued
- Revitalised looseforwards
- a reassessment of the midfield. I think the personnel are OK, but a good look at their roles would be handy
- a good look at the back 3, especially looking at 2 guys to join Caleb. Some of the current personnel are good, but need a rocket.
- overall a revitalising, whether that is youth, or just a kick in the arse I don't care.
But back to my original point seeing how I digressed, these seemingly unbeatable behemoths of South Africa, France (and a month ago Ireland and England) are a myth. They're good, but we can beat them as much as they can beat us.
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@Darth-Sader said in All Blacks 2024:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby you say 'let's see what Super Rugby brings'
A number of guys carved up in Super Rugby this year and were barely given an opportunity.
Lam
Love
ProctorEtc etc
And the irony is - for the most part - the guys who were given a shot in black on the back of Super rugby form looked good.
Meanwhile these established guys rack up test after test with mediocrity (Havili, ALB, Rieko, Jacobson etc).
Havili and ALB have had their time. Absolutely need to introduce new options there. Neither offers enough. Reiko still has something in him, but how do we unlock it consistently?
Give him some time and space for one thing. Plummer seemed to do it during Super. Of course the Blues backs stood a little deeper
I am not sure about RI getting more space in Super rugby. That's not how the Blues used their midfield. I recall asking Blue's fans during the season if they were happy with RI's form, because I had noticed him being rather inconspicuous. The gist of the replies suggested he was doing the tight stuff.
Also, from memory, RI didn't score a try during the Super Season. That too would suggest he wasn't playing in space.
I can't be bothered doing this properly, but the Blues did give him more space.
Part of it is that he can run off their ball carriers, but another is that they used his speed to come behind the ruck when they change direction, and he would often get that ball as the first receiver much in the same way that Jordan does for the Crusaders.
He was also at first receiver a bit in their pattern as the front runner receiving a wide pass from Christier with Plummer as the behind runner, so if he could get in space he would hold it or pass wide, but could also pass back to Plummer who was on the loop.
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@Darth-Sader said in All Blacks 2024:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby you say 'let's see what Super Rugby brings'
A number of guys carved up in Super Rugby this year and were barely given an opportunity.
Lam
Love
ProctorEtc etc
And the irony is - for the most part - the guys who were given a shot in black on the back of Super rugby form looked good.
Meanwhile these established guys rack up test after test with mediocrity (Havili, ALB, Rieko, Jacobson etc).
Havili and ALB have had their time. Absolutely need to introduce new options there. Neither offers enough. Reiko still has something in him, but how do we unlock it consistently?
Give him some time and space for one thing. Plummer seemed to do it during Super. Of course the Blues backs stood a little deeper
I am not sure about RI getting more space in Super rugby. That's not how the Blues used their midfield. I recall asking Blue's fans during the season if they were happy with RI's form, because I had noticed him being rather inconspicuous. The gist of the replies suggested he was doing the tight stuff.
Also, from memory, RI didn't score a try during the Super Season. That too would suggest he wasn't playing in space.
I thought AJ Lam was better at 13 this year than Rieko for the Blues. Rieko did a serviceable job but had a bad concussion in the middle of the season and never got out of 3rd gear in terms of form after that.
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@booboo said in All Blacks 2024:
But back to my original point seeing how I digressed, these seemingly unbeatable behemoths of South Africa, France (and a month ago Ireland and England) are a myth. They're good, but we can beat them as much as they can beat us.
We haven't beaten France since 2018. In the last two years we've won 1 our of 5 tests against South Africa.
How is that beating them just as much as they beat us?
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Context matters a bit too though.
Since the 2019 world cup we've played the South Africans 8 times in anger (I'm not counting the RWC warm up exhibition game)
And while the ledger reads 3-5 the points difference is zero (or maybe 1). And we've played them once at home, 4 times in south africa and 3 neutral. That's pretty good against this so called generational SA team.France we haven't played outside France since 2018. And I'll let you guess when the last time they beat us prior to that 2021 win.
We're very close to the equal of any side at the moment but we're just not quite getting over the line. There isn't a gulf to cross.
I would expect us to go close to 5-0 getting to play France and SA in NZ next year.
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@mariner4life expectations should be high. The pieces are there. Time for Razor to earn his corn, select and coach the team to beat down our arch rivals in games at home
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
Context matters a bit too though.
Since the 2019 world cup we've played the South Africans 8 times in anger (I'm not counting the RWC warm up exhibition game)
And while the ledger reads 3-5 the points difference is zero (or maybe 1). And we've played them once at home, 4 times in south africa and 3 neutral. That's pretty good against this so called generational SA team.France we haven't played outside France since 2018. And I'll let you guess when the last time they beat us prior to that 2021 win.
We're very close to the equal of any side at the moment but we're just not quite getting over the line. There isn't a gulf to cross.
I would expect us to go close to 5-0 getting to play France and SA in NZ next year.
Losing because you're playing away never used to be an excuse for the ABs.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@Darth-Sader said in All Blacks 2024:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby you say 'let's see what Super Rugby brings'
A number of guys carved up in Super Rugby this year and were barely given an opportunity.
Lam
Love
ProctorEtc etc
And the irony is - for the most part - the guys who were given a shot in black on the back of Super rugby form looked good.
Meanwhile these established guys rack up test after test with mediocrity (Havili, ALB, Rieko, Jacobson etc).
Havili and ALB have had their time. Absolutely need to introduce new options there. Neither offers enough. Reiko still has something in him, but how do we unlock it consistently?
Give him some time and space for one thing. Plummer seemed to do it during Super. Of course the Blues backs stood a little deeper
I am not sure about RI getting more space in Super rugby. That's not how the Blues used their midfield. I recall asking Blue's fans during the season if they were happy with RI's form, because I had noticed him being rather inconspicuous. The gist of the replies suggested he was doing the tight stuff.
Also, from memory, RI didn't score a try during the Super Season. That too would suggest he wasn't playing in space.
I can't be bothered doing this properly, but the Blues did give him more space.
Part of it is that he can run off their ball carriers, but another is that they used his speed to come behind the ruck when they change direction, and he would often get that ball as the first receiver much in the same way that Jordan does for the Crusaders.
He was also at first receiver a bit in their pattern as the front runner receiving a wide pass from Christier with Plummer as the behind runner, so if he could get in space he would hold it or pass wide, but could also pass back to Plummer who was on the loop.
It depends on what one means with the word 'space'. The Blues may have used him differently, but I still think he was in more traffic than in his previous years at 13.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
We're very close to the equal of any side at the moment but we're just not quite getting over the line.
Because we too often get ourselves into good positions and blow it thru periods of poor play
There isn't a gulf to cross.
Not in terms of players, but I think there is in terms of on-field smarts.
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2024:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@Darth-Sader said in All Blacks 2024:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby you say 'let's see what Super Rugby brings'
A number of guys carved up in Super Rugby this year and were barely given an opportunity.
Lam
Love
ProctorEtc etc
And the irony is - for the most part - the guys who were given a shot in black on the back of Super rugby form looked good.
Meanwhile these established guys rack up test after test with mediocrity (Havili, ALB, Rieko, Jacobson etc).
Havili and ALB have had their time. Absolutely need to introduce new options there. Neither offers enough. Reiko still has something in him, but how do we unlock it consistently?
Give him some time and space for one thing. Plummer seemed to do it during Super. Of course the Blues backs stood a little deeper
I am not sure about RI getting more space in Super rugby. That's not how the Blues used their midfield. I recall asking Blue's fans during the season if they were happy with RI's form, because I had noticed him being rather inconspicuous. The gist of the replies suggested he was doing the tight stuff.
Also, from memory, RI didn't score a try during the Super Season. That too would suggest he wasn't playing in space.
I can't be bothered doing this properly, but the Blues did give him more space.
Part of it is that he can run off their ball carriers, but another is that they used his speed to come behind the ruck when they change direction, and he would often get that ball as the first receiver much in the same way that Jordan does for the Crusaders.
He was also at first receiver a bit in their pattern as the front runner receiving a wide pass from Christier with Plummer as the behind runner, so if he could get in space he would hold it or pass wide, but could also pass back to Plummer who was on the loop.
It depends on what one means with the word 'space'. The Blues may have used him differently, but I still think he was in more traffic than in his previous years at 13.
Essentially in the current AB attack, he gets the ball and the defender at the same time; anything more than that is 'space'.
Currently they set up gives him far less time to use any of his strengths, and emphasizes his weaknesses (e.g., his hands in traffic which are pretty poor).
If the attack was set up so that he was a front runner in space , it would make sense but that is unlikely with the Barretts shovelling the ball along and us not showing any animation behind to hold defenders. As a result, we don't give Ioane the opportunity to be the front runner who gets the ball with a half yard and weak shoulder and instead he's just a dummy or crash ball merchant. The way we use him kind of highlights the clunkiness of our attack - especially with Barrett at 10.
