All Blacks 2024
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One thing that really annoys me with rugby is the idea that the bench role is 'lesser'.
Beauden's excellent displays off the bench should be seen as vindication for selecting him as a bench option not automatically meaning he has to start.
I think the likes of Ardie and Rieko could be excellent bench options but there's a stigma that they'll be 'dropped' to the bench.
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@KiwiMurph 1 million times THIS ^^^^
other than MAYBE the front row then bench are different positions, theyre players that might be able to change a game or at least how a game is being played
with the Highlanders i often use to suggest starting coltman and having ash dixon on the bench even though Ash was clearly "better"...basically because coming to the end of a tight game an accurate lineout and lineout drive could change a game
its arguably better to have your best players on the pitch at the end
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it's not just rugby, every sport (well, sport media) sees the bench as a demotion. Even rotation sports like league and basketball.
But while i laugh at dumb shit like calling the bench "finishers" it's a valid point and a big part of modern elite rugby strategy.
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@mariner4life not sure i 100% agree....maybe 95%...but i know Wimbledon rotate through certain positions in football, sometimes start a taller but less skilled striker if the opposition isnt good in the air or sometimes just have a completely different style player on the bench so they can change things late, no point replacing like for like if youre loosing....so not completely to do with who is "better"
I also laugh at the poeple that get so worked up about what the bench players are called, like calling them finishes is one of the signs of the apocalypse...people went NUTS when they tried it wimbledon, calling for the manager to be sacked!
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soccer is different, way different. most of the starting team play all game. even the subbed player probably plays 80 minutes. And it's not that long since only 3 subs of the 11 (well 10) as opposed to 8 of 15.
In rugby the majority of the bench get big minutes.
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@mariner4life you did say "every sport"
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sees the bench as a demotion, yes
sorry, i didn't bother typing the rest as i thought it was implied "even though, for a lot of sports, it makes no fucking difference because you are getting huge game time, and the coach probably has a specific job for you"
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@Frank said in All Blacks 2024:
aaaah for the days of Nonu
he learned distribution too - he was not a natural at all. Started on the wing for the ABs I think -against Ireland in Ireland I think?
Incredible transformation; his monster miss on BOD in Hamilton had folk saying 'never again' for the ABs. Go figure.
Taking a guess I thought it was at 13 v England at the Cake Tin 2003 ... will now go google ...
Correct: http://stats.allblacks.com/asp/profile.asp?ABID=1033
But do think @nzzp is kind of correct as he fell out of favour and made the comeback on the EOYT in 2004 (I think)
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@booboo said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@Frank said in All Blacks 2024:
aaaah for the days of Nonu
he learned distribution too - he was not a natural at all. Started on the wing for the ABs I think -against Ireland in Ireland I think?
Incredible transformation; his monster miss on BOD in Hamilton had folk saying 'never again' for the ABs. Go figure.
Taking a guess I thought it was at 13 v England at the Cake Tin 2003 ... will now go google ...
Correct: http://stats.allblacks.com/asp/profile.asp?ABID=1033
But do think @nzzp is kind of correct as he fell out of favour and made the comeback on the EOYT in 2004 (I think)
huh, I was sure it was Hamilton
Edit: ah you meant debut. For sure. But I remember that perforamnce - he got ripped apart defensively.
All Blacks v Ireland 10.06.06 | Photosport New Zealand
Ireland's captain Brian O'Driscoll runs in a try after gettign past All Black Ma'a Nonu during the international rugby union test match between the All Blacks and Ireland at Waikato Stadium, Hamilton, New Zealand, on Saturday 10 June 2006. Photo: Michael Bradley/PHOTOSPORT 100606
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@Bones said in All Blacks 2024:
@booboo thought his proper "comeback" was after 07? Tana was gone, the astonishingly talented Aaron Mauger was gone.
Lucky Luke was gone. If Mauger and Lucky didn't go we might be talking about how Ma'a was an average AB but became a NH club legend.
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@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2024:
With Zach Gallagher coming to the Canes next year I wouldn't mind the Canes shifting Caleb Delany back to 6 where he helped the Lions win an NPC. Great carrier of the ball, awesome lineout jumper but probably needs to work on becoming more of a dominant tackler At 115kg and 197m, he could be an option for the ABs going forward after having a superb season at lock before injury struck.
Why not ?
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@Bones said in All Blacks 2024:
@booboo thought his proper "comeback" was after 07? Tana was gone, the astonishingly talented Aaron Mauger was gone.
My recollection was around that time he started to come on as a sub and people were pleasantly surprised he didn't fuck things up and noticed he was adding to the game. Really took off in '08 and a year later he was pretty much the best 12 in the world. He really worked on developing his game and was utterly sublime in his last 2-3 years.
I think this year is make or break for Reiko in the sense we'll see if he can really develop as a 13.
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@cgrant said in All Blacks 2024:
Akira Ioane was the obvious choice as he has all the attributes of a world class blindside loose forward. It's a shame Sotutu is an exclusive Nr.8. A trio formed with Sotutu (8) - Savea (7) and Papali'i (6) could be a stop gap.
I’m a fan of each of those players, but there’s no way our issues are resolved with that trio. I don’t think Sotutu and Savea together can be effective in what we are needing.
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@nzzp I remember Nonu in 2007, well.
On the Fern, there was just me and a guy called Mojo who still thought he might be worth a shot in the 2007 RWC squad. And then he came off the bench on the wing against some team - and he was terrible.
Even me and Mojo had to concede he wasn't up to it.
Someone (and I can't recall who - in case they're still here) wrote, "Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out, Nonu"!
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@Chris-B I remember his talent in 05 - he shifted out to the wing (I think) but created an incredible try opportunity with a chip, regather, swerve and then knocked on over the line. But the pace, power and skill were incredible.
Then in 06 he shat the bed against Ireland defensively ... but man he came back strong from that.
What a player
Edit: the 05 reference was Ireland in Dublin
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@nzzp It was a good lesson for me (and others) that people can get better - and sometimes a lot better.
I reckon Finau might be one like this. He's struggling a bit at the start, but he's got all the attributes to be really good in due course. Also looks like they could still add a few kgs to make him bigger and even better.
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