CWC Semi-final 1: India v New Zealand
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@Chris-B said in CWC Semi-final 1: India v New Zealand:
@Chris said in CWC Semi-final 1: India v New Zealand:
The bowling performance was a repeat of the South African,Pakistani and Australia games resulting in the same results.
Time to move on and development a new breed of bowlers to support what is a very good batting group, the strongest man for man we have had in a long while our top 4 are all big performers and our middle to lower order do a good job.35 year old one trick ponies are not going to help us compete against the top sides our batting can.
Unfortunately, that's a lot easier said than done.
I'd hoped Big Kyle would be leading our attack now, but he hasn't kicked on in the last couple of years and seems injury prone.
The next line is Duffy and Tickner, so I hope we've got some young guys bubbling under.
It needs to be done, hard or not what is the alternative ? keep the bowling attack we have getting the same results for another 5 years until they are 40/41 years old.
No make the break now,take some bowling pain which is happening now anyway for hopefully greater reward in a couple of years.
If we have the it's to hard attitude to do then someone like Ravindra never would have gone to the WC.
As his domestic record or previous international performances did not point to what he achieved at the WC. -
@Chris said in CWC Semi-final 1: India v New Zealand:
If we have the it's to hard attitude to do then someone like Ravindra never would have gone to the WC.
He was only in the squad due to Bracewell's injury. Good luck rather than good management/planning.
The majority of NZ team is over 30 years, so the pace bowling group needs a refresh anyway.
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@Bovidae said in CWC Semi-final 1: India v New Zealand:
@Chris said in CWC Semi-final 1: India v New Zealand:
If we have the it's to hard attitude to do then someone like Ravindra never would have gone to the WC.
He was only in the squad due to Bracewell's injury. Good luck rather than good management/planning.
The majority of NZ team is over 30 years, so the pace bowling group needs a refresh anyway.
That is why I have my doubts we will see a refresh.
The time is now. -
@Chris It's happening anyway.
They haven't picked Wagner to go to Bangladesh and Boult has removed himself from the equation.
I presume they'll have to find a replacement for Matt Henry - but, he's still in his prime and should pretty much be the first bowler picked.
I'm inclined to think that you pick the best you have available unless there's very small margins between the old and the young. I've seen nothing to suggest we've got anyone else as good as the guys who were at this CWC. And none of the next line of bowlers - Duffy, Tickner, Kuggelijn, Bracewell, Milne - are spring chickens.
I don't think it's at all hard for a young gun fast bowler to come through in NZ. In my lifetime, mainly the cupboard has been pretty bare.
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@Chris-B said in CWC Semi-final 1: India v New Zealand:
@Chris It's happening anyway.
They haven't picked Wagner to go to Bangladesh and Boult has removed himself from the equation.
I presume they'll have to find a replacement for Matt Henry - but, he's still in his prime and should pretty much be the first bowler picked.
I'm inclined to think that you pick the best you have available unless there's very small margins between the old and the young. I've seen nothing to suggest we've got anyone else as good as the guys who were at this CWC. And none of the next line of bowlers - Duffy, Tickner, Kuggelijn, Bracewell, Milne - are spring chickens.
I don't think it's at all hard for a young gun fast bowler to come through in NZ. In my lifetime, mainly the cupboard has been pretty bare.
Look you don't develop players at international level by not selecting them.
so no I do not adhere to those selection policies probably because I am involved in Qld state development programs succession is the key to success, risks need to be taken for greater reward not recycling the same rubbish for same rubbish performances.
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@Chris-B said in CWC Semi-final 1: India v New Zealand:
@Chris Yeah - but who?
You can't just throw in some kid who struggles in the Plunket Shield.
That would be like picking Taha Kemara for the All Blacks - because he's young.
Ok how are you going to develop them to international standard if your domestic comps are weak and the jump is to great.
The development programs are poor as you have just said the players underneath the non preforming players are not good enough because Why ? the systems are shit.Afganistain did exactly that 2 years ago threw a couple of quicks in raw and after 2 years have a look at their WC performances they were great why did they do that because their domestic comps and development programs are weak.
How do you get the youngsters up to standard.HOPE ?
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@Chris said in CWC Semi-final 1: India v New Zealand:
@Chris-B said in CWC Semi-final 1: India v New Zealand:
@Chris Yeah - but who?
You can't just throw in some kid who struggles in the Plunket Shield.
That would be like picking Taha Kemara for the All Blacks - because he's young.
Ok how are you going to develop them to international standard if your domestic comps are weak and the jump is to great.
The development programs are poor as you have just said the players underneath the non preforming players are not good enough because Why ? the systems are shit.How do you get the youngsters up to standard.HOPE ?
Somehow, we've managed to develop the current golden generation of players - batsmen and bowlers - so our systems can't be too awful.
The young guys have got to demonstrate they have potential at provincial level - and then you send them on A tours.
But, you can't just sack our current bowlers (who got us to the World Cup semi-finals) and bring in our under-19 attack, because they're young.
You've got to have guys who have a degree of credibility and I don't know who they are, because top of the tree in Plunket Shield at present is Scott Kuggelijn and India would have made 600 if we'd bowled him at them! (and he's old)!
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@Chris-B said in CWC Semi-final 1: India v New Zealand:
@Chris said in CWC Semi-final 1: India v New Zealand:
@Chris-B said in CWC Semi-final 1: India v New Zealand:
@Chris Yeah - but who?
You can't just throw in some kid who struggles in the Plunket Shield.
That would be like picking Taha Kemara for the All Blacks - because he's young.
Ok how are you going to develop them to international standard if your domestic comps are weak and the jump is to great.
The development programs are poor as you have just said the players underneath the non preforming players are not good enough because Why ? the systems are shit.How do you get the youngsters up to standard.HOPE ?
Somehow, we've managed to develop the current golden generation of players - batsmen and bowlers - so our systems can't be too awful.
The young guys have got to demonstrate they have potential at provincial level - and then you send them on A tours.
But, you can't just sack our current bowlers (who got us to the World Cup semi-finals) and bring in our under-19 attack, because they're young.
You've got to have guys who have a degree of credibility and I don't know who they are, because top of the tree in Plunket Shield at present is Scott Kuggelijn and India would have made 600 if we'd bowled him at them! (and he's old)!
look we beg to differ here the thinking in NZ to some of the rest of the world is behind the development thinking of other nations.
What you are suggesting is we keep under performing 35/36 year olds play them until they are 45 and hope some one comes along if not you are back where you started that is not forward thinking.
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it is worth noting that while our attack hasn't been awesome, India's amazing attack in the best of their own conditions gave up 327
And what i would consider a great attack in Australia's has given up 306, 291, 383, 305, and 311 in this tournament alone.
Not a great tournament to be a bowler (unless you are Indian right up to last night). -
@Chris said in CWC Semi-final 1: India v New Zealand:
@Chris-B said in CWC Semi-final 1: India v New Zealand:
@Chris said in CWC Semi-final 1: India v New Zealand:
@Chris-B said in CWC Semi-final 1: India v New Zealand:
@Chris Yeah - but who?
You can't just throw in some kid who struggles in the Plunket Shield.
That would be like picking Taha Kemara for the All Blacks - because he's young.
Ok how are you going to develop them to international standard if your domestic comps are weak and the jump is to great.
The development programs are poor as you have just said the players underneath the non preforming players are not good enough because Why ? the systems are shit.How do you get the youngsters up to standard.HOPE ?
Somehow, we've managed to develop the current golden generation of players - batsmen and bowlers - so our systems can't be too awful.
The young guys have got to demonstrate they have potential at provincial level - and then you send them on A tours.
But, you can't just sack our current bowlers (who got us to the World Cup semi-finals) and bring in our under-19 attack, because they're young.
You've got to have guys who have a degree of credibility and I don't know who they are, because top of the tree in Plunket Shield at present is Scott Kuggelijn and India would have made 600 if we'd bowled him at them! (and he's old)!
What you are suggesting is we keep under performing 35/36 year olds play them until they are 45 and hope some one comes along if not you are back where you started that is not forward thinking.
That's not really what I'm suggesting.
I'm suggesting you can't just pick a bunch of kids and hope they'll come right - especially if they're not even particularly promising to begin with.
For all of Australia's forward thinking their team at this World Cup is pretty much as old as ours.
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@Chris-B said in CWC Semi-final 1: India v New Zealand:
@Chris said in CWC Semi-final 1: India v New Zealand:
@Chris-B said in CWC Semi-final 1: India v New Zealand:
@Chris said in CWC Semi-final 1: India v New Zealand:
@Chris-B said in CWC Semi-final 1: India v New Zealand:
@Chris Yeah - but who?
You can't just throw in some kid who struggles in the Plunket Shield.
That would be like picking Taha Kemara for the All Blacks - because he's young.
Ok how are you going to develop them to international standard if your domestic comps are weak and the jump is to great.
The development programs are poor as you have just said the players underneath the non preforming players are not good enough because Why ? the systems are shit.How do you get the youngsters up to standard.HOPE ?
Somehow, we've managed to develop the current golden generation of players - batsmen and bowlers - so our systems can't be too awful.
The young guys have got to demonstrate they have potential at provincial level - and then you send them on A tours.
But, you can't just sack our current bowlers (who got us to the World Cup semi-finals) and bring in our under-19 attack, because they're young.
You've got to have guys who have a degree of credibility and I don't know who they are, because top of the tree in Plunket Shield at present is Scott Kuggelijn and India would have made 600 if we'd bowled him at them! (and he's old)!
What you are suggesting is we keep under performing 35/36 year olds play them until they are 45 and hope some one comes along if not you are back where you started that is not forward thinking.
That's not really what I'm suggesting.
I'm suggesting you can't just pick a bunch of kids and hope they'll come right - especially if they're not even particularly promising to begin with.
For all of Australia's forward thinking their team at this World Cup is pretty much as old as ours.
Not a bunch of kids I never said that you have Henry,Jamieson worth persisting with pick a couple of youngsters and rotate them .
dump your under performing 35/36s year olds with no up side.
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@Chris-B said in CWC Semi-final 1: India v New Zealand:
@Chris said in CWC Semi-final 1: India v New Zealand:
@Chris-B said in CWC Semi-final 1: India v New Zealand:
@Chris said in CWC Semi-final 1: India v New Zealand:
@Chris-B said in CWC Semi-final 1: India v New Zealand:
@Chris Yeah - but who?
You can't just throw in some kid who struggles in the Plunket Shield.
That would be like picking Taha Kemara for the All Blacks - because he's young.
Ok how are you going to develop them to international standard if your domestic comps are weak and the jump is to great.
The development programs are poor as you have just said the players underneath the non preforming players are not good enough because Why ? the systems are shit.How do you get the youngsters up to standard.HOPE ?
Somehow, we've managed to develop the current golden generation of players - batsmen and bowlers - so our systems can't be too awful.
The young guys have got to demonstrate they have potential at provincial level - and then you send them on A tours.
But, you can't just sack our current bowlers (who got us to the World Cup semi-finals) and bring in our under-19 attack, because they're young.
You've got to have guys who have a degree of credibility and I don't know who they are, because top of the tree in Plunket Shield at present is Scott Kuggelijn and India would have made 600 if we'd bowled him at them! (and he's old)!
What you are suggesting is we keep under performing 35/36 year olds play them until they are 45 and hope some one comes along if not you are back where you started that is not forward thinking.
That's not really what I'm suggesting.
I'm suggesting you can't just pick a bunch of kids and hope they'll come right - especially if they're not even particularly promising to begin with.
For all of Australia's forward thinking their team at this World Cup is pretty much as old as ours.
Depth under neath, there some young guns coming through there is the difference they have options.
And their quicks are not 35 or 36 yet. -
@Chris Neither are ours...yet.
Starc's only 6 months younger than Boult - he's got no upside, the Aussies should have dumped him!
As before - we are moving in the direction you want. Wagner and Boult are being eased out.
The problem is - our next best bowlers are the likes of Tickner, who aren't particularly good and are already in their early 30s. And if we've got good young quicks behind them, I don't know who they are - Ben Sears has had a run, but I've never seen him to know if he's got promise. Shipley? He's supposed to be an allrounder.
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@Chris-B said in CWC Semi-final 1: India v New Zealand:
@Chris Neither are ours...yet.
Starc's only 6 months younger than Boult - he's got no upside, the Aussies should have dumped him!
As before - we are moving in the direction you want. Wagner and Boult are being eased out.
The problem is - our next best bowlers are the likes of Tickner, who aren't particularly good and are already in their early 30s. And if we've got good young quicks behind them, I don't know who they are - Ben Sears has had a run, but I've never seen him to know if he's got promise. Shipley? He's supposed to be an allrounder.
A genuine all rounder or a Doug Bracewell all rounder ?
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Well, here they are Harry - what are the magic words?
Kuggelijn - No.
Smith - seems to have been around for a while?
Clarke - Right arm medium - that doesn't sound promising.
Bracewell - nope
Duffy - nope
Ashok - a spinner
Hampton - 32 yo
Foulkes - right arm medium.
Sheat - right arm medium
Randell right arm medium
Toole - LEFT arm medium
Tickner....We seem to lack guys who are 6ft 5 and fast!
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wait, some bloke on here told me like a year ago we had heaps of them. where did they go?
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@Chris-B said in CWC Semi-final 1: India v New Zealand:
@Chris It's happening anyway.
They haven't picked Wagner to go to Bangladesh and Boult has removed himself from the equation.
I presume they'll have to find a replacement for Matt Henry - but, he's still in his prime and should pretty much be the first bowler picked.
I'm inclined to think that you pick the best you have available unless there's very small margins between the old and the young. I've seen nothing to suggest we've got anyone else as good as the guys who were at this CWC. And none of the next line of bowlers - Duffy, Tickner, Kuggelijn, Bracewell, Milne - are spring chickens.
I don't think it's at all hard for a young gun fast bowler to come through in NZ. In my lifetime, mainly the cupboard has been pretty bare.
It all happens naturally anyway with ODIs, because the top players only play half of the ODIs anyway. E.g. in the last 4 year cycle between world cups. None of the first choice seam bowler played more than half the games.
Therefore you would expect the next generation to be getting decent game time anyway. Unfortunately the mini/half generation of seam bowlers (e.g. 5 years younger than the all-time great crop of Southee, Boult, Wagner, Fergusson, Henry etc ) are not very good. Apart from Jamieson (and even then, not in white-ball).
So, there are no successors ready in place with 40 to 50 games under their belt ready to step up as the great generation retires. They are more placeholders.
Fortunately the bowling crop 10 years young than the current crop are way more promising than the placeholder 'generation'. But, I'd assume there will be transition pain.
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We’ve got one of the fastest bowlers in the world coming through in Ben Sears (same 1st XI as Ravindra) but I’d say he’ll be a year or so off as he needs to mature physically.
