RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks
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@Joans-Town-Jones said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@Chris-B said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@TheMojoman said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@Windows97 said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@nostrildamus said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
This is such an uplifting thread.
Poster A: The current ABs are crap.
Poster B: You forget, they have been crap before.Well the positives are...
- The game-plan worked for 40 minutes
- We have a lot of injured players to come back into the team - who will make a difference.
- We beat a lot a defenders and created opportunities (didn't capitalize on them unfortunately).
There are positives we can work on but man, two games in a row where our forward pack sort of disappeared. I am certain we can recover and beat Boks/Ireland in the qtrs but I'm not so confident we can win 3 big games in a row.
I'm going to (perhaps wishfully) give Fozzie a bit of credit for taking a professional approach to this RWC.
He let very few of his ABs play any significant time in the NPC. Most of our guys hadn't played any proper rugby for three or four weeks prior to the Jaapie game - and we looked it.
We looked better vs France, but still a fair way off the pace. Well short of the sort of physical effort we put in vs SA in the Rugby Championship.
Losing to France is a bit like losing to one of the top teams in Round 8 of Super Rugby - it's not going to have much bearing on outcomes five weeks hence.
We have to win three hard games - I reckon the stats suggest (and unfortunately for Fozzie's redemption) that each of NZ, Ireland, SA and France has about a 20% chance of winning the whole thing - with the remaining 20% shared between the rest.
I doubt anything significant has changed as a result of the France game. Pretty sure Fozzie had it on his list of "nice to have's", but he won't be losing sleep over that.
So lets say this is true, this is what ABs rugby has sunk to. Losing is ok as long as we win the big one. In less than four years NZRU and the rugby public have allowed this to sink into the fabric of ABs rugby. And probably the worst of all, other than Justin Marshall, no former ABs have come out expressed their hurt at Foster's reign. We're going to lose tests from time to time but the frequency, the manner, the opposition we lose to is just unacceptable. I'll ask again, at what point over the last 4 years has Foster given us any confidence at all the ABs will get passed the QF. Hell, I'd even question we'd get passed Wales or Fiji at this point.
Let's not forget we won the RC this year, so we have it in us. But the margins are so thin that when we can't field our top team we struggle to play well
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@DaGrubster Yep mate, couldn't agree more about Jacobson, I just couldn't understand why Vai'i jumped him as starting 6. I make no bones I have been I have tended to be a huge fan of Ryan as forward coach, but wonder with how pack is going. I know I am a Finau fan, but not sure he would of been answer anyway, he tends to be a great runner with ball , but wider out, and someone like Frizzel carries hard around contact area. I really believe it's w Blackadder is there now, he is more a dirty work player you need in test matches. While not comparing players as being in same class, I always thought the strength of a Richie McCaw , Kaino etc was their work in the dark places. Richie if he didn't win a breakdown (and he missed plenty as all 7s do) he would slow down the ball opposition got, with a niggly just put hand on ball for a second. What Papali'i needs to learn, and I think we missed Cane who does it.
You back from your holiday yet? Some people live a great life!
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I think the main issue we have and we saw it on Friday is that we just don’t have the depth at the moment. (Fozzie has exacerbated this with his squad mix balance).
We have c.20 players that form the bulk of a strong squad, but as we have seen with certain injuries and from the bench, we are not getting much out of the side if we have to dive deeper.
I also don’t think we have the mental strength of previous AB sides and I actually don’t think we have as good as fitness levels. AB sides would pride themselves on being the fittest but we haven’t seen evidence of that this year (2nd half drop offs in most games). While the opportunity to fatigue teams has been lessened because of games lasting over 2 hours, we haven’t adapted to that either and we don’t put the same emphasis on building strength in the side. It’s quite evident when you compare AB body shapes with other sides.
I honestly don’t know whether it is Foz, the players, super rugby or as always, a combination all all of these things and more. but this side could be so much more than it is and it feels like we are running out of time to see that.
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@DaGrubster said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
I think the main issue we have and we saw it on Friday is that we just don’t have the depth at the moment. (Fozzie has exacerbated this with his squad mix balance).
We have c.20 players that form the bulk of a strong squad, but as we have seen with certain injuries and from the bench, we are not getting much out of the side if we have to dive deeper.
I also don’t think we have the mental strength of previous AB sides and I actually don’t think we have as good as fitness levels. AB sides would pride themselves on being the fittest but we haven’t seen evidence of that this year (2nd half drop offs in most games). While the opportunity to fatigue teams has been lessened because of games lasting over 2 hours, we haven’t adapted to that either and we don’t put the same emphasis on building strength in the side. It’s quite evident when you compare AB body shapes with other sides.
I honestly don’t know whether it is Foz, the players, super rugby or many other small things but this side could be so much more than it is and it feels like we are running out of time to see that.
In 2019 at least the illusion was the powder being kept dry for when we needed it. This time around I feel less hopeful, we are grasping and so much will have to go right for us to be successful
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Listening to Steve Devine yesterday ,
He was wondering if they are holding something back for the 1/4s ,
He thought the game was there to be won but they didn’t go for it,
In other words what he is really saying ,the tactics were so bad he is hoping they weren’t deliberate 😀
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@DaGrubster Agree mate, the other thing we have to do is perhaps change game plan, I think fitness is there, but teams have got it down to a 'T' on how to slow game down, to take it out of game. When we beat Boks at Mt Smart we used the contestable kick really well, made the Boks forwards move all the time, because we pressured their catchers, and if they kicked for touch we got to control speed of game etc. At Twickers and against France watch what is happening, teams are putting a screen of 3-4 players in front of catcher to protect him, and refs are allowing it, so we need a different tactic I think. Personally I think it interference, but if refs are happy with it, the teams are bang on rights to use it. I think it's one of reasons we played so much between 10m lines on weekend.
I do agree we don't have depth of players at this stage in NZ, and watching Super rugby you can see that, games very rarely develop into a slugfest etc.
My other belief , have said it a few times, our players (and I think because of loose defence) have lost a lot of skill sets. We used to see kiwi teams able to attack with 3 players between 5m and sideline and beat defenders with quick little passes, haven't seen it for a few years, it's not needed as much against weaker defences in super nowadays.I also think we have to take into account that teams like Ireland and France have never been better, sometimes it's not just about us. We are in different world rugby wise now than we ever have been.
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Yeah, I am pretty much over this RWC already as I don’t think we have the ability to overcome our shortcomings and play in a way that is required to win it.
Too many things have to go for us to be able to win it and the odds must be high for that to happen.
Having said that, it’s a long tournament and we have seen sides grow into them before. Let’s hope the ABs do in fact grow into the tournament and use the next month to be in the best shape possible for the qtr final.
Anything is possible in a one off match of course!
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@DaGrubster said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
Yeah, I am pretty much over this RWC already as I don’t think we have the ability to overcome our shortcomings and play in a way that is required to win it.
Too many things have to go for us to be able to win it and the odds must be high for that to happen.
Having said that, it’s a long tournament and we have seen sides grow into them before. Let’s hope the ABs do in fact grow into the tournament and use the next month to be in the best shape possible for the qtr final.
Anything is possible in a one off match of course!
I agree, I feel very downbeat about our chances. That being said, we only need to catch fire in 3 games and we can win it all. But we are in an unfamiliar position right now, of a team who are not probably seen in the world rugby media as a serious threat. But if we can put our best 15 on the park and on the bench, if we focus our game plan away from what we showed in the second half in Paris , we have a team who can do the business. I'd love to be proved wrong
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G’day mate.
We had a very good game plan in the RC but we have either put that away for now or are unable to play it against a side we don’t get dominance upfront.
It’s disappointing to see us go away from a more direct gameplan that included a physically accurate breakdown approach.
I don’t want to be too negative before we have even got going and generally I am not but on the evidence so far, it looks like we are going to come up short in this RWC.
Agreed with all you say and I am trying to just enjoy the ride for what it is and see where we end up this time round.
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@DaGrubster I actually dont think we are that far off where we need to be and as such, be in with a shot, however I am unsure we have the ability to adapt and change our mindset to achieve this, especially when we will be asked to step up 3 weeks in a row, when presently we seem to struggle to put together 2 good performances (thats without looking at the fact we played well for 40/50 mins in those games too and shat the bed for the rest)
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Maybe the coaching team weren’t confident we can play that game due to half our 1st choice forward pack unavailable?
Maybe they are putting it away for the qtr finals so teams don’t prepare for it and we upset them with a change in approach (a bit like how we did against Ireland at Eden park last year).
Maybe I am clutching at straws though!? 😂
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@canefan said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
The puzzling thing is why have we departed from the physical direct game plan we used in the RC?
Generally, I'm not much of a believer in dry powder, but against France we clearly weren't playing with the same physicality we brought vs the Boks during TRC.
In the previous game we looked like we were playing a pre-season hit-out. Way off the pace.
As Grubster says maybe we need our top team back to get to that level - or maybe we've shelved it for now. It's hard to bring that level of intensity every match.
And, frankly, I wasn't overly impressed with France - especially in the first half. I reckon they've got more gears to go through in the play-offs.
The draw has made it pretty tough for any of NZ, SA, France or Ireland to win it, but it's highly likely one of them will. Two of them will go home after the QFs - if that's us, I hope at least we play well and look like we were contenders.
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@kiwiinmelb said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
Listening to Steve Devine yesterday ,
He was wondering if they are holding something back for the 1/4s ,
He thought the game was there to be won but they didn’t go for it,
In other words what he is really saying ,the tactics were so bad he is hoping they weren’t deliberate 😀
Devine was an AB so should know his stuff, but is this really a thing? Do players in that situation actually go, yeah we can win this but let's not try very hard because quarters?
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This RWC cycle is a result of the late 2016 Hansen side. 8 years later, we still don't now our best 6, RM was just given the 10 job this year, props late last year, centers mid to late last year, wings this year and who knows what the phuck the game plan is. We do know that whatever game plan they put out, a team with half a brain and an average to decent boot will hump us.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@kiwiinmelb said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
Listening to Steve Devine yesterday ,
He was wondering if they are holding something back for the 1/4s ,
He thought the game was there to be won but they didn’t go for it,
In other words what he is really saying ,the tactics were so bad he is hoping they weren’t deliberate 😀
Devine was an AB so should know his stuff, but is this really a thing? Do players in that situation actually go, yeah we can win this but let's not try very hard because quarters?
I think its horse shit TBH. How the hell do you know a plan works if you don't practice it during a game? In which case teams will work it out.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@kiwiinmelb said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
Listening to Steve Devine yesterday ,
He was wondering if they are holding something back for the 1/4s ,
He thought the game was there to be won but they didn’t go for it,
In other words what he is really saying ,the tactics were so bad he is hoping they weren’t deliberate 😀
Devine was an AB so should know his stuff, but is this really a thing? Do players in that situation actually go, yeah we can win this but let's not try very hard because quarters?
Yes.
You see it every year in Super rugby. Crusaders lost 4 games this year - but, none in the play-offs.
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Up to a point I agree, but no way do I think ABs lost because they were keeping powder dry, just beaten by better team. As I say , at times we have to instead of just saying ABs weren't good, we should give opposition credit for being good, much as it seems a lot of us as AB fans can't do it.
Game is so structured how we play at top level add into fact that late changes seem to stuff up a little how teams play, and at top level against very good teams, off by 2% is enough to lose tests. -
@Joans-Town-Jones said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
This RWC cycle is a result of the late 2016 Hansen side. 8 years later, we still don't now our best 6, RM was just given the 10 job this year, props late last year, centers mid to late last year, wings this year and who knows what the phuck the game plan is. We do know that whatever game plan they put out, a team with half a brain and an average to decent boot will hump us.
That's maybe because we don'or aren't producing players of the calibre of McCaw, Carter (all time greats) and Kaino etc etc at super level and below. Though I believe we are getting close to seeing a few real WC players coming up , enough for us to dominate like we did from 2011-2016 I doubt, but it is up to point a cycle.
