Springboks v All Blacks I
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@Billy-Webb said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
I think it is "put your neck on the line and make some predictions" time for this game.
I'll start:
It will transpire that the AB's are actually much better than currently being credited.
And if they beat the Boks, the northern hemisphere scribes will deliriously pontificate on how the power in rugby has shifted up north and the World Cup is going to be a battle between Ireland, England and France.Conversely, maybe Ireland are actually pretty good?
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Has anyone mentioned how shit our TH props are for this test? Hardly would strike fear into the local kindy, let alone the raw meat eating Neanderthals that the Boers seem to churn out for their 1 and 3 jumpers.
We're in serious schtuk if we have any scrum on our own line.
Yes, I have no faith in Angus or Lomax, it could be a long night. But will be happy to be proved wrong!
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@Billy-Webb said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
Hmmm...
Springbok team:
15 Damian Willemse, 14 Kurt-Lee Arendse, 13 Lukhanyo Am, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Makazole Mapimpi, 10 Handre Pollard, 9 Faf de Klerk, 8 Jasper Wiese, 7 Pieter-Step du Toit, 6 Siya Kolisi (captain), 5 Lood de Jager, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Malcolm Marx, 1 Trevor NyakaneSubstitutes: 16 Bongi Mbonambi, 17 Steven Kitshoff, 18 Vincent Koch, 19 Salmaan Moerat, 20 Franco Mostert, 21 Kwagga Smith, 22 Jaden Hendrikse, 23 Willie le Roux
The Bok team is ok, but I am not super thrilled. Here are my main areas of doubt:
a. Trevor Nyakane: I love this guy. His passion and his mobility are great assets, but is he one of 2 of our best loosehead props? When it comes to scrum time, I don't think so. Hope he makes me eat my words though!!
b. Salmaan Moerat: has potential to develop but not yet our 3rd best lock ... surely?! And I get the thing about gaining experience etc. but this is the All Blacks we are facing FFS.
c. Jasper Wiese: OMG where do I start. Nienaber describes him as a longterm project. Bloody hell, he has 13 caps under the belt already. How many more times do we need to see how limited he is, especially in SA conditions before we abandon the "project"? Surely, if you want a long term project, someone who already knows how to catch, pass, run into space would be a better place to start?
My issue with Nyakane is actually the opposite, i think he will do well in the scrums, but he offers much less around the park than Ox (is he injured?)
Nyakane had issues in Wales three and were conned early in the england game last year, but I don't think he'll be fooled as easily again and on proper pitch his brute power should win out.
As for Moerat - hes not Snyman, but if we are going with 6-2 bench (which i dont think we should) then he is right pick to keep the physical pressure on the All Blacks.
Fuck knows what Rasnaber sees in Wiese. He only has one dimension (carrier). So the squad contains five candidates for the no 8 jerseys each of whom is at least equal to Wiese as a carrier while bringing other skills to the team.
We desparately need Pollard to find form. If he plays well I am very confident that we'll win and win well, but I also have almost zero confidence that he'll do that so yeah, its a fifty fifty game.
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@nostrildamus said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@Billy-Webb said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
I think it is "put your neck on the line and make some predictions" time for this game.
I'll start:
It will transpire that the AB's are actually much better than currently being credited.
And if they beat the Boks, the northern hemisphere scribes will deliriously pontificate on how the power in rugby has shifted up north and the World Cup is going to be a battle between Ireland, England and France.Conversely, maybe Ireland are actually pretty good?
Partly disagree. I don't think Ireland are pretty good. I think they are bloody good!
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@Halfout said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
The ABs will need to find a way to ensure attacking ball from the middle or back of the lineout. Ireland, with a weaker lineout than SAs, effectively shut down those areas and forced NZ to throw to the front. It’s very hard to launch midfield plays when Smith is forced to pass that distance. I think it’s part of the reason why Irelands rush defence was so effective. It’s also crap ball to maul off.
Its actually worse than that, Etzebeth is the best in the world at competing at the front, New Zealand will need the middle and back (against De Jager and PSDT) to function, because the "safe" option is much less so than against other teams.
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@SidBarret said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
My issue with Nyakane is actually the opposite, i think he will do well in the scrums, but he offers much less around the park than Ox (is he injured?)
Nyakane had issues in Wales three and were conned early in the england game last year, but I don't think he'll be fooled as easily again and on proper pitch his brute power should win out.
As for Moerat - hes not Snyman, but if we are going with 6-2 bench (which i dont think we should) then he is right pick to keep the physical pressure on the All Blacks.
Fuck knows what Rasnaber sees in Wiese. He only has one dimension (carrier). So the squad contains five candidates for the no 8 jerseys each of whom is at least equal to Wiese as a carrier while bringing other skills to the team.
We desparately need Pollard to find form. If he plays well I am very confident that we'll win and win well, but I also have almost zero confidence that he'll do that so yeah, its a fifty fifty game.
Well, let's hope you're half right and I am half right when it comes to Nyakane in that he scrums better than I think, and he is better in the loose than you think Sid
Can't seem to find any news on Ox, but I have to assume he is injured?I am fine with the 6-2 concept, if we have the right players in the bombsquad. That means guys who can cover a range of positions - and be highly effective doing so. So entire front row - tick. Franco covers you for lock and blindside - tick. Not sure we need yet another lock given that onfield PSDT could also slot back in the second row. I would have liked to see Roos in place of Moerat but no doubt that is heavily influenced by Jasper's inclusion...
Kwagga actually gives you cover at 6, 8 and probably could do a job in the outside backs.
Agreed on Pollard. He needs to get his mojo fully back. I am (perhaps wishfully) thinking I saw some progress in the 3rd Wales test..?
The one point I didn't mention is Jaden Hendrikse. I like him, but his service is below par slow. He really needs to up that part of his game.
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@Billy-Webb said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@SidBarret said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
My issue with Nyakane is actually the opposite, i think he will do well in the scrums, but he offers much less around the park than Ox (is he injured?)
Nyakane had issues in Wales three and were conned early in the england game last year, but I don't think he'll be fooled as easily again and on proper pitch his brute power should win out.
As for Moerat - hes not Snyman, but if we are going with 6-2 bench (which i dont think we should) then he is right pick to keep the physical pressure on the All Blacks.
Fuck knows what Rasnaber sees in Wiese. He only has one dimension (carrier). So the squad contains five candidates for the no 8 jerseys each of whom is at least equal to Wiese as a carrier while bringing other skills to the team.
We desparately need Pollard to find form. If he plays well I am very confident that we'll win and win well, but I also have almost zero confidence that he'll do that so yeah, its a fifty fifty game.
Well, let's hope you're half right and I am half right when it comes to Nyakane in that he scrums better than I think, and he is better in the loose than you think Sid
Can't seem to find any news on Ox, but I have to assume he is injured?I am fine with the 6-2 concept, if we have the right players in the bombsquad. That means guys who can cover a range of positions - and be highly effective doing so. So entire front row - tick. Franco covers you for lock and blindside - tick. Not sure we need yet another lock given that onfield PSDT could also slot back in the second row. I would have liked to see Roos in place of Moerat but no doubt that is heavily influenced by Jasper's inclusion...
Kwagga actually gives you cover at 6, 8 and probably could do a job in the outside backs.
Agreed on Pollard. He needs to get his mojo fully back. I am (perhaps wishfully) thinking I saw some progress in the 3rd Wales test..?
The one point I didn't mention is Jaden Hendrikse. I like him, but his service is below par slow. He really needs to up that part of his game.
You sound like an AB supporter from several years ago nit picking at the odd selection, but deep down knowing that the majority of the best players available have been selected and if they play well will likely win.
The Boks are clear, outright favourites. Consistency in selection, everyone knows the game plan, combinations are tried and tested, playing at home in front of a raucous crowd. A win should be a formality
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@stodders said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@Billy-Webb said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@SidBarret said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
My issue with Nyakane is actually the opposite, i think he will do well in the scrums, but he offers much less around the park than Ox (is he injured?)
Nyakane had issues in Wales three and were conned early in the england game last year, but I don't think he'll be fooled as easily again and on proper pitch his brute power should win out.
As for Moerat - hes not Snyman, but if we are going with 6-2 bench (which i dont think we should) then he is right pick to keep the physical pressure on the All Blacks.
Fuck knows what Rasnaber sees in Wiese. He only has one dimension (carrier). So the squad contains five candidates for the no 8 jerseys each of whom is at least equal to Wiese as a carrier while bringing other skills to the team.
We desparately need Pollard to find form. If he plays well I am very confident that we'll win and win well, but I also have almost zero confidence that he'll do that so yeah, its a fifty fifty game.
Well, let's hope you're half right and I am half right when it comes to Nyakane in that he scrums better than I think, and he is better in the loose than you think Sid
Can't seem to find any news on Ox, but I have to assume he is injured?I am fine with the 6-2 concept, if we have the right players in the bombsquad. That means guys who can cover a range of positions - and be highly effective doing so. So entire front row - tick. Franco covers you for lock and blindside - tick. Not sure we need yet another lock given that onfield PSDT could also slot back in the second row. I would have liked to see Roos in place of Moerat but no doubt that is heavily influenced by Jasper's inclusion...
Kwagga actually gives you cover at 6, 8 and probably could do a job in the outside backs.
Agreed on Pollard. He needs to get his mojo fully back. I am (perhaps wishfully) thinking I saw some progress in the 3rd Wales test..?
The one point I didn't mention is Jaden Hendrikse. I like him, but his service is below par slow. He really needs to up that part of his game.
You sound like an AB supporter from several years ago nit picking at the odd selection, but deep down knowing that the majority of the best players available have been selected and if they play well will likely win.
The Boks are clear, outright favourites. Consistency in selection, everyone knows the game plan, combinations are tried and tested, playing at home in front of a raucous crowd. A win should be a formality
We are definitely underdogs
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PSDT hasnt played at lock since 2018 so i dont think he is even being considered there anymore.
Having two loosies on the bench just seems too disruptive, we end up making a late change forbthe sake of it, while swapping out the locks tend to work better.
But without RG in the squad the concept doesnt make sense to me as a fresh Moerat is not going to add that much more than Etzebeth after 60 minutes (and i rate Moerat).
My issue with the 6 2 split is that doesn't allow us to make changes at the back until late in the game because we need to keep subs in reserve in case of injury.
But i can't stop thinking how much of a pain the Wiese selection is. Hes short so we need to have a tall looseforward in case something happens to Du Toit. He doesnt offer anything in ruck so we need to have Kwagga on the bench in case something happens to Marx. All for what? Hes not a better carrier than Louw or Roos who are both superior in all other aspects. Im calling it now, we are wasting valuable caps on a project that is never going to come good over at least two players that are going to be fantastic for the next decade.
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5 ABs make the Telegraph composite XV. Only 2 in the forwards. Can't really argue with many of those selections either. Maybe Barrett for Willemse. Then again, Whitelock getting in ahead of de Jager balances that out.
Saturday shouldn't even be close.
South Africa and New Zealand combined XV: How many All Blacks make our team?
With the Rugby Championship getting under way this weekend, Charlie Morgan picks his combined Springbok-All Black XV
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@SidBarret said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
PSDT hasnt played at lock since 2018 so i dont think he is even being considered there anymore.
Having two loosies on the bench just seems too disruptive, we end up making a late change forbthe sake of it, while swapping out the locks tend to work better.
But without RG in the squad the concept doesnt make sense to me as a fresh Moerat is not going to add that much more than Etzebeth after 60 minutes (and i rate Moerat).
My issue with the 6 2 split is that doesn't allow us to make changes at the back until late in the game because we need to keep subs in reserve in case of injury.
But i can't stop thinking how much of a pain the Wiese selection is. Hes short so we need to have a tall looseforward in case something happens to Du Toit. He doesnt offer anything in ruck so we need to have Kwagga on the bench in case something happens to Marx. All for what? Hes not a better carrier than Louw or Roos who are both superior in all other aspects. Im calling it now, we are wasting valuable caps on a project that is never going to come good over at least two players that are going to be fantastic for the next decade.
They love him up north. He's very similar to CJ Stander and he has legendary status in Ireland.
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@KiwiMurph said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@Machpants said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@kev said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@TheMojoman said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@Billy-Tell said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
Wish they would play Jordan at 15. The problem is BB is a crap goal kicker so his brother has to play.
BB is on borrowed time if he keeps trotting out nothing but aimless midfield bombs.
At least they improved the front row.
I think against the Boks, Jordie is your man at fullback. We’ll need his long kicking game and he’s our best back under the high ball. I’d be trying Jordan at fullback versus the Argies.
Jordie biggest issue is can he get through 80 minutes with a low error rate and without a major brain explosion
He did versus SA1 last year, when everyone else shat the bed under the high ball. Sure 4 years ago, I was there, but bollox recently. Want great last few games, but not many were
Speaking of SA1 last year - someone else who did great in that game was Sotutu off of the bench.
Since that game he's played against USA and Italy...... that's it.
Code name ‘Dry Powder’?
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@stodders said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
5 ABs make the Telegraph composite XV. Only 2 in the forwards. Can't really argue with many of those selections either. Maybe Barrett for Willemse. Then again, Whitelock getting in ahead of de Jager balances that out.
Saturday shouldn't even be close.
South Africa and New Zealand combined XV: How many All Blacks make our team?
With the Rugby Championship getting under way this weekend, Charlie Morgan picks his combined Springbok-All Black XV
Reasonable, but I expect on Monday to see a couple more ABs in such a team.
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@Billy-Webb said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@nostrildamus said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@Billy-Webb said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
I think it is "put your neck on the line and make some predictions" time for this game.
I'll start:
It will transpire that the AB's are actually much better than currently being credited.
And if they beat the Boks, the northern hemisphere scribes will deliriously pontificate on how the power in rugby has shifted up north and the World Cup is going to be a battle between Ireland, England and France.Conversely, maybe Ireland are actually pretty good?
Partly disagree. I don't think Ireland are pretty good. I think they are bloody good!
Agreed. My kiwi understatement. V impressed also how their coach built on the previous coaching.
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@SidBarret said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
But i can't stop thinking how much of a pain the Wiese selection is. Hes short so we need to have a tall looseforward in case something happens to Du Toit. He doesnt offer anything in ruck so we need to have Kwagga on the bench in case something happens to Marx. All for what? Hes not a better carrier than Louw or Roos who are both superior in all other aspects. Im calling it now, we are wasting valuable caps on a project that is never going to come good over at least two players that are going to be fantastic for the next decade.
This. Times a 100.
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@stodders i know your tongue is firmly in the cheek, but there is massive difference between the world champions in 2018 and the world champions right now.
Even the late Hansen era All Blacks had fucking annoying knack for winning games that they maybe shouldnt have. They just always tended to find a way to win.
This Springbok side is the opposite, even when they play well they dont put teams away and drop games that they really shouldn't. Im am confident that they are the better team this week, but I am losing faith that they will demonstrate that on the scoreboard where it matters
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@SidBarret said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@stodders i know your tongue is firmly in the cheek, but there is massive difference between the world champions in 2018 and the world champions right now.
Even the late Hansen era All Blacks had fucking annoying knack for winning games that they maybe shouldnt have. They just always tended to find a way to win.
This Springbok side is the opposite, even when they play well they dont put teams away and drop games that they really shouldn't. Im am confident that they are the better team this week, but I am losing faith that they will demonstrate that on the scoreboard where it matters
The difference now is that this ABs team doesn't have the confidence of knowing that if they hang on in there, they will sneak a victory. I think a big part of the AB issues right now lies in the psychology of the team, primarily because of trust. They are second guessing themselves a lot. ABs used to make chances out of nothing because of their belief...it is why you used to see 4 black shirts escorting the ball carrier over the line with no defender in sight because they all believed the passes would stick and ran hard on support just in case they had to be there to take the pass.
The players are good enough, but take away the belief and they lose 1-2%, and that can be the difference between being accurate/inaccurate. Why has belief drained away? Results don't help. Maybe there is over coaching and too many mixed messages. Maybe there is too little coaching that is leaving players in situations on the field that they can't find answers for.
I'd say a lot of it is to do with constantly chopping and changing combinations. It doesn't allow players to get a feel for their fellow players, e.g. when to run the support line, when to let the attacker go because you trust your inside/outside man. The players want to play for each other and the coach - you can see this in the desire shown when scrambling on defence. This suggests the issue is more a selection one, borne out of picking from a shallower talent pool - ABs need to play their best players as often as possible right now; the rest and rotation strategy worked when there was enough depth.
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@cgrant said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
Is Goodhue coming into consideration as a 2nd five ? His lack of speed is a major problem for a centre but his passing and robustness, plus his excellent allround play, make him a better choice than Havili, IMO.
He played there in 2020. 5 tests. Including a draw to Australia and a loss to Argentina. Jury is out for mine but in theory he definitely makes sense there I agree.
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@stodders said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@SidBarret said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@stodders i know your tongue is firmly in the cheek, but there is massive difference between the world champions in 2018 and the world champions right now.
Even the late Hansen era All Blacks had fucking annoying knack for winning games that they maybe shouldnt have. They just always tended to find a way to win.
This Springbok side is the opposite, even when they play well they dont put teams away and drop games that they really shouldn't. Im am confident that they are the better team this week, but I am losing faith that they will demonstrate that on the scoreboard where it matters
The difference now is that this ABs team doesn't have the confidence of knowing that if they hang on in there, they will sneak a victory. I think a big part of the AB issues right now lies in the psychology of the team, primarily because of trust. They are second guessing themselves a lot. ABs used to make chances out of nothing because of their belief...it is why you used to see 4 black shirts escorting the ball carrier over the line with no defender in sight because they all believed the passes would stick and ran hard on support just in case they had to be there to take the pass.
The players are good enough, but take away the belief and they lose 1-2%, and that can be the difference between being accurate/inaccurate. Why has belief drained away? Results don't help. Maybe there is over coaching and too many mixed messages. Maybe there is too little coaching that is leaving players in situations on the field that they can't find answers for.
I'd say a lot of it is to do with constantly chopping and changing combinations. It doesn't allow players to get a feel for their fellow players, e.g. when to run the support line, when to let the attacker go because you trust your inside/outside man. The players want to play for each other and the coach - you can see this in the desire shown when scrambling on defence. This suggests the issue is more a selection one, borne out of picking from a shallower talent pool - ABs need to play their best players as often as possible right now; the rest and rotation strategy worked when there was enough depth.
I don't remember selection being a strong part of Fozzie's skill set with the Chiefs. And he still hasn't settled on key combinations like MF two years into his tenure. And it's not like he was starting from scratch, he was already part of the set up
