Foster, Robertson etc
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@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial You are trying too hard.
Not at all. It was easy.
In Super you get the luxury of brushing off a dud performance by saying 'we were out of balance' wait and see who wins the comp.
Same thing doesn't apply at test level as we have seen.
More to the point (and this isn't a crack at Razor or an excuse for Foster) this is the same players with the same failings. When it happens the coach (whoever it is) can only do so much.
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@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Just an interesting point for those that think the messiah will fix everything with a wave of his hand
Quote from Razor after the Chiefs game...
"We pride ourselves on our attitude, and our effort. If you look at the positions the defence in, to defend for long periods at a time; the attack didn't allow the defence to be in a good position to start with. And our kicking game compromised us.''
Same player that compromises the ABs with his kicking game and a quote that I could probably find an almost exact copy of from Foster.
That quote was from Scott Hanson not Razor.
Was it? Point still stands. Razor as coach doesn’t mean that Mounga becomes a good tactical kicker or that effort on defense equates to effective defence that isn’t manipulated by an opponent with a good plan.
You quoted Razor as saying it and said you could find a quote Foster saying the same thing.
Scott Hansen actually sets the backs tactical plan not Razor.Ineffectiveness and tactic setting are different things.
Yes, I checked the article and the quote was from Hansen
If Razor is going to get the bouquets for his results then he also gets tainted by the brickbats.
But again, my point isnt targetting Razor or excusing Foster. It is pointing out that the same problems exist from the same players and can derail team performance.
I'm not going to search through every Foster post match quote. Just fairly sure that I would find something similar if I did. -
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
If Razor is going to get the bouquets for his results then he also gets tainted by the brickbats.
I just want the best possible coach available to coach the ABs. Who here thinks it is Ian Foster? If there is a better coach available than Razor choose that person. But it isn't clear to me yet. The contenders look good, Razor could be very good. Farrell could be better than Razor but he isn't available.
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@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Just an interesting point for those that think the messiah will fix everything with a wave of his hand
Quote from Razor after the Chiefs game...
"We pride ourselves on our attitude, and our effort. If you look at the positions the defence in, to defend for long periods at a time; the attack didn't allow the defence to be in a good position to start with. And our kicking game compromised us.''
Same player that compromises the ABs with his kicking game and a quote that I could probably find an almost exact copy of from Foster.
That quote was from Scott Hanson not Razor.
Was it? Point still stands. Razor as coach doesn’t mean that Mounga becomes a good tactical kicker or that effort on defense equates to effective defence that isn’t manipulated by an opponent with a good plan.
You quoted Razor as saying it and said you could find a quote Foster saying the same thing.
Scott Hansen actually sets the backs tactical plan not Razor.Ineffectiveness and tactic setting are different things.
Yes, I checked the article and the quote was from Hansen
If Razor is going to get the bouquets for his results then he also gets tainted by the brickbats.
But again, my point isnt targetting Razor or excusing Foster. It is pointing out that the same problems exist from the same players and can derail team performance.
I'm not going to search through every Foster post match quote. Just fairly sure that I would find something similar if I did.Kicking was poor this game from the Crusaders.
But they have won 6 titles in a row the tactical kicking apart from this game must have been good enough to win those championships as it has a big impact on winning games. -
@nostrildamus said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
If Razor is going to get the bouquets for his results then he also gets tainted by the brickbats.
I just want the best possible coach available to coach the ABs. Who here thinks it is Ian Foster? If there is a better coach available than Razor choose that person. But it isn't clear to me yet. The contenders look good, Razor could be very good. Farrell could be better than Razor but he isn't available.
I know what you want. It has only been repeated over and over. I'm not criticising your opinion at all, just pointing out some realities that any coach has to deal with.
This thread has simply become polarising repetition.
How about we talk about what a coach could do differently?@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Just an interesting point for those that think the messiah will fix everything with a wave of his hand
Quote from Razor after the Chiefs game...
"We pride ourselves on our attitude, and our effort. If you look at the positions the defence in, to defend for long periods at a time; the attack didn't allow the defence to be in a good position to start with. And our kicking game compromised us.''
Same player that compromises the ABs with his kicking game and a quote that I could probably find an almost exact copy of from Foster.
That quote was from Scott Hanson not Razor.
Was it? Point still stands. Razor as coach doesn’t mean that Mounga becomes a good tactical kicker or that effort on defense equates to effective defence that isn’t manipulated by an opponent with a good plan.
You quoted Razor as saying it and said you could find a quote Foster saying the same thing.
Scott Hansen actually sets the backs tactical plan not Razor.Ineffectiveness and tactic setting are different things.
Yes, I checked the article and the quote was from Hansen
If Razor is going to get the bouquets for his results then he also gets tainted by the brickbats.
But again, my point isnt targetting Razor or excusing Foster. It is pointing out that the same problems exist from the same players and can derail team performance.
I'm not going to search through every Foster post match quote. Just fairly sure that I would find something similar if I did.Kicking was poor this game from the Crusaders.
But they have won 6 titles in a row the tactical kicking apart from this game must have been good enough to win those championships as it has a big impact on winning games.Hence my point that Super Rugby and Test Rugby are a different beast for a coach. Gradual improvement in a competition is acceptable when you emerge victorious. The appetite for any poor performance at test level is much different.
You are proving that point by shrugging of a poor performance for the Crusaders when a similar showing by the ABs would not get the same attitude.I totally get that maybe Razor would do a better job than Foster. I am pointing out that it wont be the massive turnaround some think it will.
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@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nostrildamus said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
If Razor is going to get the bouquets for his results then he also gets tainted by the brickbats.
I just want the best possible coach available to coach the ABs. Who here thinks it is Ian Foster? If there is a better coach available than Razor choose that person. But it isn't clear to me yet. The contenders look good, Razor could be very good. Farrell could be better than Razor but he isn't available.
I know what you want. It has only been repeated over and over. I'm not criticising your opinion at all, just pointing out some realities that any coach has to deal with.
This thread has simply become polarising repetition.
How about we talk about what a coach could do differently?@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Just an interesting point for those that think the messiah will fix everything with a wave of his hand
Quote from Razor after the Chiefs game...
"We pride ourselves on our attitude, and our effort. If you look at the positions the defence in, to defend for long periods at a time; the attack didn't allow the defence to be in a good position to start with. And our kicking game compromised us.''
Same player that compromises the ABs with his kicking game and a quote that I could probably find an almost exact copy of from Foster.
That quote was from Scott Hanson not Razor.
Was it? Point still stands. Razor as coach doesn’t mean that Mounga becomes a good tactical kicker or that effort on defense equates to effective defence that isn’t manipulated by an opponent with a good plan.
You quoted Razor as saying it and said you could find a quote Foster saying the same thing.
Scott Hansen actually sets the backs tactical plan not Razor.Ineffectiveness and tactic setting are different things.
Yes, I checked the article and the quote was from Hansen
If Razor is going to get the bouquets for his results then he also gets tainted by the brickbats.
But again, my point isnt targetting Razor or excusing Foster. It is pointing out that the same problems exist from the same players and can derail team performance.
I'm not going to search through every Foster post match quote. Just fairly sure that I would find something similar if I did.Kicking was poor this game from the Crusaders.
But they have won 6 titles in a row the tactical kicking apart from this game must have been good enough to win those championships as it has a big impact on winning games.Hence my point that Super Rugby and Test Rugby are a different beast for a coach. Gradual improvement in a competition is acceptable when you emerge victorious. The appetite for any poor performance at test level is much different.
You are proving that point by shrugging of a poor performance for the Crusaders when a similar showing by the ABs would not get the same attitude.I totally get that maybe Razor would do a better job than Foster. I am pointing out that it wont be the massive turnaround some think it will.
The massive repetition is this:
" it wont be the massive turnaround some think it will."
I don't know any poster saying that but it keeps being repeated.
So until you stop this repetition I will keep repeating my answer to you and to others. Name the posters or stop dragging out this straw man.I'd be very happy there was talk of other possible coaches, rival strategies etc., but taking boring and obvious potshots and quoting the wrong person in round 1 when the Crusaders are famously always slow starters isn't helping.
oh and Foster disproves your "Hence my point that Super Rugby and Test Rugby are a different beast for a coach." He has been mediocre at both.
So go ahead and make a constructive post in this thread. I look forward to it.
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You cant beat a good coaching record over a decent period of time
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@nostrildamus said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I totally get that maybe Razor would do a better job than Foster. I am pointing out that it wont be the massive turnaround some think it will.
I think you called Razor the Messiah everyone thinks he is, that is a bit of a potshot at Razor.
I for one have no idea if the AB's will get a massive turnaround under Razor or any other coach .
But it has to be better than the Foster reign which has been a massive messy shit feast from results, poor selections,sacking assistant coaches and a bleat in the media about keeping his Job under what sort of criteria as HC he is thinking he is good enough to go another 4 years. -
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@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I think you called Razor the Messiah everyone thinks he is, that is a bit of a potshot at Razor.
No, it's a potshot at those that think he will fix all problems
Exactly how I read it Crucial!
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@Crucial I think most people see the cold hard evidence in front of their eyes and say, " Fozzie is the wrong person at the wrong time. What are the alternatives? Razor? OK, give him a go cos it can't get any worse".
Some posters, "Razor is not a messiah".
Most people, "Wait!? What?" -
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I think you called Razor the Messiah everyone thinks he is, that is a bit of a potshot at Razor.
No, it's a potshot at those that think he will fix all problems
But who is saying that I certainly have not and I can not remember other posters saying he will fix all problems.
You have invented that opinion yourself. -
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I think you called Razor the Messiah everyone thinks he is, that is a bit of a potshot at Razor.
No, it's a potshot at those that think he will fix all problems
I haven't read that take from anyone here, or is Canerbry back? Most people, by my reckoning, just think Razor deserves a shot based on his record. Foster didn't have any record to speak of, he just had his time as an assistant to Shag. Considering how we went out in 2019, I don't think the pessimism was unreasonable or unwarranted
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I was rather hoping Joseph was interested when they appointed Foster because I think Brown has exciting backlines but I am beginning to wonder if Joseph-Brown would work best with the ABs (there seem to teams they naturally fit better with, i.e., they seem to do particularly well improving teams that worked hard but not very creatively) and secondly I'd prefer a coach doing well in NZ over one doing well internationally, otherwise there is little incentive to stay here.
I understand the NZR perspective, and yes international experience is great, but it has to be balanced with growing the coaching pool here AND retaining coaching IP (if there is such a thing).
Seems to me the coaching drain is as bad or worse than the player drain and quite a few coaches seem to have a golden patch then get found out or go stale. -
@nostrildamus said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I was rather hoping Joseph was interested when they appointed Foster because I think Brown has exciting backlines but I am beginning to wonder if Joseph-Brown would work best with the ABs (there seem to teams they naturally fit better with, i.e., they seem to do particularly well improving teams that worked hard but not very creatively) and secondly I'd prefer a coach doing well in NZ over one doing well internationally, otherwise there is little incentive to stay here.
I understand the NZR perspective, and yes international experience is great, but it has to be balanced with growing the coaching pool here AND retaining coaching IP (if there is such a thing).
Seems to me the coaching drain is as bad or worse than the player drain and quite a few coaches seem to have a golden patch then get found out or go stale.Yep agree with what you say.
For me the international experience line trotted out is a bit of a Red Herring.
Every coach to go on to an international coaching job has come from a lower tier of coaching somewhere in their career.
And many have stepped up that is where your next pool of international coaches come from the tiers below.
if international experience was the be all of being an international coach then the same pool of coaches will just be recycled around the international teams.
Where does the fresh ideas,Coaching philosophies,a fresh voice come from that is like re cycling the same 30 players in the AB's for 30 years regardless of form.
To be a HC you have to be a different beast to an assistant coach it is a tough gig. -
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial I think most people see the cold hard evidence in front of their eyes and say, " Fozzie is the wrong person at the wrong time. What are the alternatives? Razor? OK, give him a go cos it can't get any worse".
Some posters, "Razor is not a messiah".
Most people, "Wait!? What?"that is 100% what i was thinking but couldn't think how to word it, thinking razor would be better than fozzie is not the same as saying razor is perfect
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@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I think you called Razor the Messiah everyone thinks he is, that is a bit of a potshot at Razor.
No, it's a potshot at those that think he will fix all problems
Has anybody said he will fix all the problems?
Posters calling for Razor just want the guy with the best record.
Not too much to ask. -
@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I think you called Razor the Messiah everyone thinks he is, that is a bit of a potshot at Razor.
No, it's a potshot at those that think he will fix all problems
Has anybody said he will fix all the problems?
Posters calling for Razor just want the guy with the best record.
Not too much to ask.Best Super Record or proven international record?
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@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Foster didn't have any record to speak of, he just had his time as an assistant to Shag.
Did he just carry the water in that gig?
Big difference between an AC and a HC. My concern was he wouldn't be able to implement new ideas after our failure in Japan. I wasn't alone
