All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider
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@stodders yeah hindsight is easy eh, but I get the feeling there was similar turmoil over Henry,, Hansen maybe not as much due to the previous successful reign, etc. I remember Deans had huge support as the guy who should have led the ABs - I mean just look at all his super titles!
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@stodders I remember when foster first became an allblack assistant and he was attack coach . There was a lot of opposition from the public due to the chiefs stuff , but I remember thinking well if the chiefs did anything under his reign well, it was some of their attack , so maybe thats ok
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@kiwiinmelb so hopefully with him as ABs coach he'll sort our attack out...one day.
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@DaGrubster said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Danny, did you back the appointment of Fozzie originally?
Do you think we need Change now?
The frustrating thing about Foster and his reign as AB coach is that it has been entirely predictable. The vast majority of fans knew this was a poor appointment, notwithstanding the issues that lay ahead of NZ rugby after the RWC2019.
If the average Person can see something the NZR can’t? What does that say about how the game is run in this country?
Hey Grubs, I neither backed or otherwise Fozzie's appointment in all honesty, I have said a hundred times I wasn't on board that decided between Foster and Razor, and after all my bloody years of being on boards and appointing coaches etc, I live under the idea that people who do appointments have all the facts, answers from people applying. Do I think he should still hold the job, once again no idea, as I not sure,, I will be honest though my favoured man (with my ltd knowledge) before he was appointed was someone who didn't stand and that was Jamie Joseph, who's work I have always liked.
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I will add that last night it occured to me what I finding most disconcerting about the position we find ourselves in (or ABs) and the reaction on rugby forums. We are tied in a test series and 4th on the rankings in world rugby, and while being a bit disppointed, not as disappointed as maybe the reaction on forums by so called AB supporters, there seems almost no credit given to Ireland for winning 2nd test, only tearing clothes and screaming about how poor ABs were, want to know something Irish were bloody good and made us look poor, and we 4th on rankings, prehaps French (in my opinion clearly best team), Ireland , and Boks (though I feel some of theirs is residual points from year off) just deserve to be in the positions they are in. When I was thinking of it I was thinking how much as a rugby nation we used to enjoy and celebrate bloody good teams and players, 71 Lions tour the whole of NZ knew all the Lion's players, and while wanting ABs to win would seemingly enjoy the Edwards, Johns, Gibson ete, etc skils, same as Wallabies when they had the likes of Ella, Campese, Eales etc, why has it in internet days changed where we can't give the likes of Doris, Sexton etc credit for being good players? I an starting to understand why maybe AB supporters are disliked by others at times.
Ok my rant over, but I think it came to me when I wondered why I was disappointed to miss club rugby this weekend while going to test, and that's one thing that came to mind, we don't think it our right to win at the club etc. -
@Dan54 The disappointing and frustrating thing is we can all see that Ireland are a far better team because of their coach.
Its pretty simple Talent + Poor Coach is getting beaten by Good Coach + Talent. What we want is a good coach to make the most of our talent. At the moment that is not happening.
I think Ireland well and truly deserve to win this series, they clearly show a much better plan and the players implement that plan. Their coach knows their strengths and has pinpointed our weaknesses. We need a coach doing the same thing.
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@chimoaus yep, you can see they are well coached, they know what is going on, what thier role is and it shows, sure like anyone, put them under constant pressure they start to crack...but you have to put them under pressure, something we struggle to do, we keep throwing runners at them, so easy to.pick off that they keep knocking them back and we end up aimlessly kicking it away, drop it or turn it over.
We appear to have less clarity about where we are going and what thier roles are, and subsequently we are making more unforced errors with and without the ball, finding ourselves out of position, mis timing our runs (again on both sides of the ball) and no composure under pressure.
I genuinely believe we still have the talent to be #1, and even win the rwc next year...sure we don't have absolute best in position players like McCaw, DC, Nonu, Smith (x2) peak Whitelock, BBBR, but there is the talent and ability there as a team, so what is the missing ingredient?
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
I genuinely believe we still have the talent to be #1, and even win the rwc next year...sure we don't have absolute best in position players like McCaw, DC, Nonu, Smith (x2) peak Whitelock, BBBR, but there is the talent and ability there as a team, so what is the missing ingredient?
Good leaders from the Coach to the CEO.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@chimoaus yep, you can see they are well coached, they know what is going on, what thier role is and it shows, sure like anyone, put them under constant pressure they start to crack...but you have to put them under pressure, something we struggle to do, we keep throwing runners at them, so easy to.pick off that they keep knocking them back and we end up aimlessly kicking it away, drop it or turn it over.
We appear to have less clarity about where we are going and what thier roles are, and subsequently we are making more unforced errors with and without the ball, finding ourselves out of position, mis timing our runs (again on both sides of the ball) and no composure under pressure.
I genuinely believe we still have the talent to be #1, and even win the rwc next year...sure we don't have absolute best in position players like McCaw, DC, Nonu, Smith (x2) peak Whitelock, BBBR, but there is the talent and ability there as a team, so what is the missing ingredient?
Apart from a very good 10?
I've never been a fan of Sexton but that's more because he can be a whiny git. However, take him out of this Ireland side and they aren't anywhere near as good.
He has the skills and experience to do the right thing at the right time. So much of their phase play relies on his skills -
@Dan54 said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
I will add that last night it occured to me what I finding most disconcerting about the position we find ourselves in (or ABs) and the reaction on rugby forums. We are tied in a test series and 4th on the rankings in world rugby, and while being a bit disppointed, not as disappointed as maybe the reaction on forums by so called AB supporters, there seems almost no credit given to Ireland for winning 2nd test, only tearing clothes and screaming about how poor ABs were, want to know something Irish were bloody good and made us look poor, and we 4th on rankings, prehaps French (in my opinion clearly best team), Ireland , and Boks (though I feel some of theirs is residual points from year off) just deserve to be in the positions they are in. When I was thinking of it I was thinking how much as a rugby nation we used to enjoy and celebrate bloody good teams and players, 71 Lions tour the whole of NZ knew all the Lion's players, and while wanting ABs to win would seemingly enjoy the Edwards, Johns, Gibson ete, etc skils, same as Wallabies when they had the likes of Ella, Campese, Eales etc, why has it in internet days changed where we can't give the likes of Doris, Sexton etc credit for being good players? I an starting to understand why maybe AB supporters are disliked by others at times.
Ok my rant over, but I think it came to me when I wondered why I was disappointed to miss club rugby this weekend while going to test, and that's one thing that came to mind, we don't think it our right to win at the club etc.It's not about a 'right to win', it's frustration with no game plan, seeing talented players underperform, and weird selections not based on form.
As for not celebrating players from other countries - for me and many others on here, that is just bullshit. We're not talking about O'driscoll, Horan, Eales, Dusattoir, Burger etc - we're talking about James Lowe and JGP beating the ABs, a team they couldn't make. -
@Crucial yep, def one of the issues.
BUt you have to wonder, all this aimless kicking (ignoring the length for a moment) is surely part of the game plan? Maybe not aimless, but not putting it to touch, we are kicking it to them to run back at us, therefore are we meant to be pressuring them with our kick chase more, is our chase defence not doing its job?
Yep, 10 is absolutely part of the problem, but it isnt the only one...BB is a fantastic runner, he can kick, but something not quite right there presently, we also have JB who can slot in at first receiver, why are we not utilising him more, like we used to with Dagg?
Playing smarter rugby would help, rather than this heads up, all out score from anywhere, play smart, those chances will come, instead we constantly put ourselves under pressure at the wrong end of the park (well both ends TBF)
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@stodders said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
I'll play devil's advocate here:
Foster's time as head coach with the Chiefs wasn't great. But people can develop and improve if they show that they can learn from past mistakes.
People defending Foster always say this, but it isn't true. Poor coaches never turn into good coaches.
By the time Foster left the Chiefs he had been coaching for well over a decade. If he wasn't good by then, he never was going to be. He showed no upward path then, yet we are meant to believe that he would start showing one twenty years into his career? That is the height of optimism.
While people do learn from past mistakes, they also carry over old ideas and ways from the past that rapidly get out of date. Once you get to a certain amount of experience, the new things you learn generally don't cancel out all the old baggage that you carry.
This has been studied in various fields. Teachers, for example, are best after eight years experience, regardless of how old they were when they started. After that time they generally get worse with added experience.
It's why one of the best things a person who is a bit jaded can do is do something else, even if only for a short while.
Foster is doing exactly what the nay-sayers predicted -- picking favourites he won't drop, having fantastic performances followed by inexplicably bad ones, fielding teams with game plans that are out of date. That's who he is, and more experience is not going to change that.
Can you persuade me by giving examples of coaches who got better after more than a dozen years on the job? They are few and far between. Even great coaches tend to fade with age, rather than get better, which is also contrary to the "you get better with experience" line.
NZ Rugby got cocky. Like the great Auckland run of the 90's, then the great Crusaders run when they persisted with Blackadder, they actually believed that their systems were more important than the people they hired. As long as the man involved knew the system, then he would get results, because the system was so awesome. Someone like Robertson who was obviously going to change the system was actively avoided.
Foster was hired not because he was the best coach, and they knew that, but because he would continue the system. Turns out that their system always depended on having the best coaches after all.
So, as we saw with Blackadder and the Crusaders, a slip in results did not lead to a change in coach. They simply knew the system would win out, so they persisted for eight years of mediocrity. Luckily for them the next coach was from the system too, but good, so they started winning again. They are going to be baffled in Crusader land when the system doesn't work when he goes. The Blues were less lucky. They could not get their heads around why their system didn't give them championships once Graham Henry left. It turns out their much vaunted system required having the best coach, after all. (They didn't even get it once Henry returned and gave them one more championship, they were that pig-headed about it.)
The Chiefs persisted with eight years of Foster. The Crusaders with eight years of Blackadder. The Blues decades of uselessness. That NZ Rugby will come to their senses and realise that the coach is the problem is still some four years away. If we are lucky.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@Crucial yep, def one of the issues.
BUt you have to wonder, all this aimless kicking (ignoring the length for a moment) is surely part of the game plan? Maybe not aimless, but not putting it to touch, we are kicking it to them to run back at us, therefore are we meant to be pressuring them with our kick chase more, is our chase defence not doing its job?
It's more that Ireland have learned from old AB tricks and run very good blocking lines while retreating meaning that we can't get to those kicks to contest or pressure. We used to do the same to other teams and they stopped kicking to us
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@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
This has been studied in various fields. Teachers, for example, are best after eight years experience, regardless of how old they were when they started. After that time they generally get worse with added experience.
Been teaching for 20 years- can confirm.
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@Chester-Draws Fantastic post, I also think Foster was coaching some of the best players on the planet under Hansen and any competent coach would have been made to look good. Once he lost the players things started to fall apart and we have not seen any change under his tenure to suggest different.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
I will add that last night it occured to me what I finding most disconcerting about the position we find ourselves in (or ABs) and the reaction on rugby forums. We are tied in a test series and 4th on the rankings in world rugby, and while being a bit disppointed, not as disappointed as maybe the reaction on forums by so called AB supporters, there seems almost no credit given to Ireland for winning 2nd test, only tearing clothes and screaming about how poor ABs were, want to know something Irish were bloody good and made us look poor, and we 4th on rankings, prehaps French (in my opinion clearly best team), Ireland , and Boks (though I feel some of theirs is residual points from year off) just deserve to be in the positions they are in. When I was thinking of it I was thinking how much as a rugby nation we used to enjoy and celebrate bloody good teams and players, 71 Lions tour the whole of NZ knew all the Lion's players, and while wanting ABs to win would seemingly enjoy the Edwards, Johns, Gibson ete, etc skils, same as Wallabies when they had the likes of Ella, Campese, Eales etc, why has it in internet days changed where we can't give the likes of Doris, Sexton etc credit for being good players? I an starting to understand why maybe AB supporters are disliked by others at times.
Ok my rant over, but I think it came to me when I wondered why I was disappointed to miss club rugby this weekend while going to test, and that's one thing that came to mind, we don't think it our right to win at the club etc.It's not about a 'right to win', it's frustration with no game plan, seeing talented players underperform, and weird selections not based on form.
As for not celebrating players from other countries - for me and many others on here, that is just bullshit. We're not talking about O'driscoll, Horan, Eales, Dusattoir, Burger etc - we're talking about James Lowe and JGP beating the ABs, a team they couldn't make.There is a proof, how do we know they wouldn't have made ABs? Hell look at Isaac Boss people said the same about him, and ignore the fact he turned down AB jersey when selected. I agree Lowe and JGP are better players than they appeared when they left country, and speaks to me of a very good club comp they are in, also shows what I mean in comparing the teams, you can only name NZ players in Irish team. I am disappointed as anyone , but reamain of the opinion we need to look at other teams and how good somw of their players are. All you did was rubbish Lowe and JGP and not actually given them credit for being good players.
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Goodhue 12 Reiko 13, gonna be the world cup combo, Clarke 11 Jordan 14. ALB, Reece, TUJ to fight for 23 jersey.
will it though? goodhue just cant seem to be fit at the right time....and is it not a little worrying of those names only a couple are currently getting game time
sure, on paper or Rugby Challenge stats....but in reality ?
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Goodhue 12 Reiko 13, gonna be the world cup combo, Clarke 11 Jordan 14. ALB, Reece, TUJ to fight for 23 jersey.
will it though? goodhue just cant seem to be fit at the right time....and is it not a little worrying of those names only a couple are currently getting game time
sure, on paper or Rugby Challenge stats....but in reality ?
Yep I like you kiwi and not sure how good Goodhue will be with a run of no injuries, he (like ALB) almost seem detined to be like Richard Kahui etc, players who have real bad luck with injuries.
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I know I harp on about 10s but the test game at the moment is not suited to either of our best 10s. We are missing a game controller. Both BB and RM play off instinct rather than break teams down. RM can break down poor teams but not good ones, which requires better kicking from hand than he has.
It is fair to say that we aren't running an attack from other players for these guys can feed into but also maybe there is an element of having to try and run a game that suits them?
I think we are in some fairly medium/long term strife as we have a generation of 10s and coaches that have grown up emulating a style that isn't effective at the moment given the changes to defensive systems.
Put a DC in this AB side and you'd see a massive difference from his ability to steer us around the park. Even a Cruden would do a better job..We are complaining that our gameplan seems to rely on individual brilliance but then have two 10s that have always played that way.
