All Blacks XV 2022
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@Bones said in All Blacks XV:
@Machpants said in All Blacks XV:
@antipodean said in All Blacks XV:
@Machpants said in All Blacks XV:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks XV:
@Machpants said in All Blacks XV:
@SBW1 said in All Blacks XV:
@Tim Levi Aumua named, that means he is locked in to represent the Abs at some stage, thought he wouldn't be considered due to playing for MP. Glad he has been chosen, he is a big power centre.
He can't be called up into ABs, but this is a non capture team so no problem.
MP isn't a capture team either, so playing for either team is no problem.
Correct, but also wrong. NZR has signed an agreement with the PI Unions, as part of the set up of MP, to not pick NZ eligible players from MP for the ABs (I guess Mcclutchie would be an exception as he's not Island qualified). Otherwise it would be a sixth NZ franchise. For ABs purposes, MP is an overseas team. But it apparently that doesn't apply to non capture teams like the XV
It seems to be a common misconception, e.g.
So the rules have changed? It used to be you had to declare a team your second team EDIT That appears to be U20 only.
MP says nah that's not right, NZR still need to declare it. So we'll see
I think that's the key though - "the next senior representative side" wasn't that the wording? So it's simple, ABXV isn't the next senior representative side....yet.
Yeah NZR can still say that's the Junior ABs I guess
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@Machpants said in All Blacks XV:
@Bones said in All Blacks XV:
@Machpants said in All Blacks XV:
@antipodean said in All Blacks XV:
@Machpants said in All Blacks XV:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks XV:
@Machpants said in All Blacks XV:
@SBW1 said in All Blacks XV:
@Tim Levi Aumua named, that means he is locked in to represent the Abs at some stage, thought he wouldn't be considered due to playing for MP. Glad he has been chosen, he is a big power centre.
He can't be called up into ABs, but this is a non capture team so no problem.
MP isn't a capture team either, so playing for either team is no problem.
Correct, but also wrong. NZR has signed an agreement with the PI Unions, as part of the set up of MP, to not pick NZ eligible players from MP for the ABs (I guess Mcclutchie would be an exception as he's not Island qualified). Otherwise it would be a sixth NZ franchise. For ABs purposes, MP is an overseas team. But it apparently that doesn't apply to non capture teams like the XV
It seems to be a common misconception, e.g.
So the rules have changed? It used to be you had to declare a team your second team EDIT That appears to be U20 only.
MP says nah that's not right, NZR still need to declare it. So we'll see
I think that's the key though - "the next senior representative side" wasn't that the wording? So it's simple, ABXV isn't the next senior representative side....yet.
Yeah NZR can still say that's the Junior ABs I guess
Whilst in theory they could say that, I’m pretty sure that JABs was abandoned in 2009 so there is no such team. So I guess it comes down to technicality.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks XV:
@Machpants said in All Blacks XV:
@Bones said in All Blacks XV:
@Machpants said in All Blacks XV:
@antipodean said in All Blacks XV:
@Machpants said in All Blacks XV:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks XV:
@Machpants said in All Blacks XV:
@SBW1 said in All Blacks XV:
@Tim Levi Aumua named, that means he is locked in to represent the Abs at some stage, thought he wouldn't be considered due to playing for MP. Glad he has been chosen, he is a big power centre.
He can't be called up into ABs, but this is a non capture team so no problem.
MP isn't a capture team either, so playing for either team is no problem.
Correct, but also wrong. NZR has signed an agreement with the PI Unions, as part of the set up of MP, to not pick NZ eligible players from MP for the ABs (I guess Mcclutchie would be an exception as he's not Island qualified). Otherwise it would be a sixth NZ franchise. For ABs purposes, MP is an overseas team. But it apparently that doesn't apply to non capture teams like the XV
It seems to be a common misconception, e.g.
So the rules have changed? It used to be you had to declare a team your second team EDIT That appears to be U20 only.
MP says nah that's not right, NZR still need to declare it. So we'll see
I think that's the key though - "the next senior representative side" wasn't that the wording? So it's simple, ABXV isn't the next senior representative side....yet.
Yeah NZR can still say that's the Junior ABs I guess
Whilst in theory they could say that, I’m pretty sure that JABs was abandoned in 2009 so there is no such team. So I guess it comes down to technicality.
There's a whole lot more to Regulation 8 than just the snippet in that tweet. A quick squiz doesn't bring anything to light regarding the official "next senior representative side", other than to say the unions have to do some declaration thing regarding the players on 1st December....and then I fell asleep.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks XV:
@Frye Yeah - even as a Crusaders' supporter, the optics look a bit wrong.
About the only rationale you can apply to the Hodgman non-selection, is they've picked de Groot, Bower and Ofa for the ABs. They've got Ross more highly rated, Moody to return - so in the here and now, Alex is (at best) their No. 6 loosehead and they're unlikely to need to turn to him next year, so they're investing in the future with Williams and Brewis. Still pretty unlucky I think.
They've got 6 midfielders (including Jordie) in the AB squad + Goodhue and Tupaea injured, so the best of the AB XV midfielders is presumably 9th in line. Heem might be 12th.
Bell has been getting rave reviews as the way of the future, so I don't mind him over Thompson (who is still a bit unlucky) - it's just all the other Crusaders being there, makes it seem a bit off.
I haven't watched much of Canterbury inb this year's NPC, but I wasn't hugely impressed with Gardiner in Super. I'm not sure I've ever seen Lio-Willie play - I guess Ryan thought it was a coup pinching him off the Highlanders.
Gardiner has been the outstanding forward for Canterbury in the NPC one of the standout forward in the NPC.
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@Machpants said in All Blacks XV:
@antipodean said in All Blacks XV:
@Machpants said in All Blacks XV:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks XV:
@Machpants said in All Blacks XV:
@SBW1 said in All Blacks XV:
@Tim Levi Aumua named, that means he is locked in to represent the Abs at some stage, thought he wouldn't be considered due to playing for MP. Glad he has been chosen, he is a big power centre.
He can't be called up into ABs, but this is a non capture team so no problem.
MP isn't a capture team either, so playing for either team is no problem.
Correct, but also wrong. NZR has signed an agreement with the PI Unions, as part of the set up of MP, to not pick NZ eligible players from MP for the ABs (I guess Mcclutchie would be an exception as he's not Island qualified). Otherwise it would be a sixth NZ franchise. For ABs purposes, MP is an overseas team. But it apparently that doesn't apply to non capture teams like the XV
It seems to be a common misconception, e.g.
So the rules have changed? It used to be you had to declare a team your second team EDIT That appears to be U20 only.
MP says nah that's not right, NZR still need to declare it. So we'll see
NZR confirmed later in the tweet thread ie, this is not a capture team.
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@TheMojoman said in All Blacks XV:
@Machpants said in All Blacks XV:
@antipodean said in All Blacks XV:
@Machpants said in All Blacks XV:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks XV:
@Machpants said in All Blacks XV:
@SBW1 said in All Blacks XV:
@Tim Levi Aumua named, that means he is locked in to represent the Abs at some stage, thought he wouldn't be considered due to playing for MP. Glad he has been chosen, he is a big power centre.
He can't be called up into ABs, but this is a non capture team so no problem.
MP isn't a capture team either, so playing for either team is no problem.
Correct, but also wrong. NZR has signed an agreement with the PI Unions, as part of the set up of MP, to not pick NZ eligible players from MP for the ABs (I guess Mcclutchie would be an exception as he's not Island qualified). Otherwise it would be a sixth NZ franchise. For ABs purposes, MP is an overseas team. But it apparently that doesn't apply to non capture teams like the XV
It seems to be a common misconception, e.g.
So the rules have changed? It used to be you had to declare a team your second team EDIT That appears to be U20 only.
MP says nah that's not right, NZR still need to declare it. So we'll see
NZR confirmed later in the tweet thread ie, this is not a capture team.
Yep and U20 is not a capture team, never has been in NZ. I think the only capture team NZR have outside ABs is the AB's 'A' team, which I think is why this is called an AB VX and not AB 'A' as usual.
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With my Swiss rugby team on our annual road-trip, we went to see Bath play Worcestershire Warriors in Bath on the 17th November 2018. As always, I scanned both sides for Kiwi expats. Bath had Jackson Willison at 13 and Worcester had Bryce Heem at 14. Heem was solid but unspectacular, which sort of sums up his career. Never in my wildest dreams, did I think he would be turning out for an AB XV in 2022! I'm happy for the guy, but it's hard to understand the selection in terms of the future!
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@Dan54 I dont think it matters what they call it, they just need to designate it as our 2nd team for that purpose...I think many years back Fiji had looked at doing that for thier U21 side, but dont think they did.
They could designate the NZ U18 team as our 2nd team if they wanted to.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks XV:
@Dan54 I dont think it matters what they call it, they just need to designate it as our 2nd team for that purpose...I think many years back Fiji had looked at doing that for thier U21 side, but dont think they did.
They could designate the NZ U18 team as our 2nd team if they wanted to.
They cant anymore. Have youth teams as 2nd XVs. That has changed, after the 1st Spain eligibility debacle.
It's as clear as mud.
But, maybe, one day, a team which Levi Aumua is playing for(if in next 3 years, and it is not NZ) may be the subject of an appeal by the opposition. Better take a 36th man in their squad, a lawyer. Maybe they'll win, maybe they'll lose, maybe it will never happen.
But. End of day. Maybe NZRU should be better at not creating unnecessary problems.
This sounds like a job for an NZ Barbarians team to me.
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@Rapido said in All Blacks XV:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks XV:
@Dan54 I dont think it matters what they call it, they just need to designate it as our 2nd team for that purpose...I think many years back Fiji had looked at doing that for thier U21 side, but dont think they did.
They could designate the NZ U18 team as our 2nd team if they wanted to.
They cant anymore. Have youth teams as 2nd XVs. That has changed, after the 1st Spain eligibility debacle.
It's as clear as mud.
But, maybe, one day, a team which Levi Aumua is playing for(if in next 3 years, and it is not NZ) may be the subject of an appeal by the opposition. Better take a 36th man in their squad, a lawyer. Maybe they'll win, maybe they'll lose, maybe it will never happen.
But. End of day. Maybe NZRU should be better at not creating unnecessary problems.
This sounds like a job for an NZ Barbarians team to me.
Regs are quite clear from WR. There is a list published each year of the designated 'second senior side' for each country. Anything outside of that can't be argued as qualifying.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks XV:
@Rapido said in All Blacks XV:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks XV:
@Dan54 I dont think it matters what they call it, they just need to designate it as our 2nd team for that purpose...I think many years back Fiji had looked at doing that for thier U21 side, but dont think they did.
They could designate the NZ U18 team as our 2nd team if they wanted to.
They cant anymore. Have youth teams as 2nd XVs. That has changed, after the 1st Spain eligibility debacle.
It's as clear as mud.
But, maybe, one day, a team which Levi Aumua is playing for(if in next 3 years, and it is not NZ) may be the subject of an appeal by the opposition. Better take a 36th man in their squad, a lawyer. Maybe they'll win, maybe they'll lose, maybe it will never happen.
But. End of day. Maybe NZRU should be better at not creating unnecessary problems.
This sounds like a job for an NZ Barbarians team to me.
Regs are quite clear from WR. There is a list published each year of the designated 'second senior side' for each country. Anything outside of that can't be argued as qualifying.
Have you ever seen this list?
Must be on their intranet, or sent by fax.The rules have been 'quite clear' for ages, yet Spain twice, Romania, Belgium, Tahiti have managed to get themselves disqualified in the last 2 RWC qualifying campaigns over ineligible players.
The rules are no clearer now, just different.
NZRU have just added another level of complexity. Nothing we'll need to worry about though, but I'd be wary for the less resourced unions who may pick one of these ambiguous All Blacks XV players in the next 3 years in a RWC qualifying match and leave themselves open to potential disqualification if a lawyer interprets it differently.
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Also. I remember previous time NZRU thought they were smarter than IRBs lawyers. Didnt end well (for us).
I wouldn't take an NZRU reply tweet to some twitter trolling as a definitive legal answer. As tbh, the competence of the current NZRU seems even lower than the Rutherford and Whathisname? Days.
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If Hong Kong or South Korea prefer to play Niue, rather than Cook Islands, in 2027 RWC qualifying, and they're prepared to do down a dirty lawyer route to progress.... well. They'd do well to keep an eye on these ambiguous All Blacks XV players and see if Samoa or Tonga give them an opportunity for a potential free pass.
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Have you tried searching the WR site? Here are the regs. Quite clear.
How do I know which team is a Union’s next senior fifteen-a-side
National Representative Team?
(a) There should be no uncertainty over which team constitutes a
Union’s next senior National Representative Team. Unions are
required to notify World Rugby of the name of their nominated next
senior National Representative Team. The team nominated remains
the Union’s next senior National Representative Team unless the
Union notifies World Rugby of a change in this nomination. A Union
is entitled to notify World Rugby no more than once per calendar
year of a change to its next senior National Representative Team
provided that in doing so it shall take account of any Matches such
team may be scheduled to play and shall advise the Union of any
senior or next senior National Representative Team it is scheduled
to play reasonably in advance of such Match. The identity of a
Union’s next senior National Representative Team can be verified
with the Union concerned and/or World Rugby.(b) Unions must ensure that all persons involved in an International
Match (Players and team management including coaching staff) are
made aware of the status of their team as the next senior National
Representative Team and that of their opposing team where it is the
senior or next senior National Representative Team of another
Union and what that means from a capturing perspective under
Regulation 8. Notwithstanding the Union’s obligation to inform the
Player and team management it shall be the sole responsibility of
each Player to ensure that he is aware of the status of every Match
in which he plays and the implications of playing in an International
Last update: 1 July, 2016 160
REGULATION 8 EXPLANATORY GUIDELINES
Match involving the senior or next senior National Representative
Teams of two Unions.(c) In addition to (a) and (b) above, Unions who designate their Under
20s National Representative Team as their next senior National
Representative Team have a particular onus to clearly make the
Team Players aware of the consequences of being captured for that
Union at age grade level. Effective 1 July 2014, the Players on any
such Team which participates in the World Rugby Junior World
Championships, World Rugby Junior World Trophy or the Six
Nations U20 Championship (where they are present at the Match
played by that Team either as a replacement, substitute or playing
member of that Team and has, at the time of the Match, reached the
age of majority) will be captured. In this regard the status of the
opposition teams in any Match in these named tournaments is not a
factor to be considered. -
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks XV:
@Dan54 I dont think it matters what they call it, they just need to designate it as our 2nd team for that purpose...I think many years back Fiji had looked at doing that for thier U21 side, but dont think they did.
They could designate the NZ U18 team as our 2nd team if they wanted to.
Yep mate, understand that, but suspect they may not of called this our second team to avoid capturing players, to remove the need for players (say Levi Aumua) to decide they will or won't risk things until they can see how it goes. I would of been happier to see PGS tried this way. I think with the number we see getting tests etc now do we need to 'capture' more players?
Eligibility Regulation | World Rugby
