Super Rugby missing the Saffas?
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I'm sure not missing having to get up at night to watch the NZ franchises play in SA.
I miss my Sunday morning rugby - watching the games in Argentina - more. I loved the 10.40am kick-off times on my lazy Sunday.
Not convinced that non-exposure to SA rugby at SR level has a huge impact on AB performance. There were only a few competitive games against SA sides each season. The stats posted by @Duluth give a good indication, I think.
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SA sides are weaker than a few years back. They have lost dozens of their best players to NH clubs (mainly English and French). Now they have a lot of black players who are physically less impressive than the Africaans (of Dutch descent) and who are playing a different style of rugby, far less confrontational. I miss the old tours of the past, when NZ teams had to face hostile crowds and patriotic referees. It certainly gave them a proper training to international fixtures.
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@stargazer said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
Not convinced that non-exposure to SA rugby at SR level has a huge impact on AB performance. There were only a few competitive games against SA sides each season. The stats posted by @Duluth give a good indication, I think.
The NZ teams often matched up better against Saffa sides because the SA packs were generally slower, less mobile & less fit. They simply couldn't handle the speed of our game. That is probably why our SR teams had (surprisingly) greater success against the SA teams, even compared to the Aussie teams throughout those 25 seasons.
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In my view, big time.
The bashing we used to get from their forwards always gave us real perspective of where we were on that. You simply don't get that from Australia & now the island based teams. Perhaps the Jaguars used to give that too, but the Boss have long been the benchmark on this.
It's all well and good to look at our results against the Boks last year as proof of otherwise, but we got thumped by Ireland & France last year. Ireland are streets ahead on physiciality & France ahead on gameplay. Perhaps if we'd played the Bok teams, we'd have had a real opportunity have our shortcomings exposed at the second tier, before they were heavily exposed at the top.
The super rugby I've seen looks back to the early noughties, soft forwards phase. Entertaining, but really, pretty crap.
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I dont think it's missing the Saffer sides as such but for rugby followers of a certain age, south african teams will always have a certain mystique about them.
While they didn't have great success in super rugby, their teams offered a point of difference and style of play, along with the unique challenges of touring the republic.
it is worth noting that even if we didn't go our separate ways with them then we still wouldn't have been able to compete against them in super rugby, probably until next year.
Our issues in NZ rugby, particularly NPC and Super rugby level, is an 'entertainment' first approach which has lead to a poor generation of forwards. We have our weakest coaching team at international level for some time and for no other reason apart from inertia and hubris. Having Aus as our main competition isnt pushing us to a higher level of performance and neither are they a stable and strong commercial partner.
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@dagrubster said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
Our issues in NZ rugby, particularly NPC and Super rugby level, is an 'entertainment' first approach which has lead to a poor generation of forwards. We have our weakest coaching team at international level for some time and for no other reason apart from inertia and hubris. Having Aus as our main competition isnt pushing us to a higher level of performance and neither are they a stable and strong commercial partner.
bloody preach mate. Add to that the reappointment of the weakest coaching team in my memory, and you get a system that is not geared for elite success.
we need someone with a broom in NZR, and a new coach/support structure for the ABs.
Also, I loved the SA teams here. They brought physical monsters that you had to learn to deal with, and that drives quality below the AB level. I'd bring them back in a heartbeat.
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i dont know about the saffas specifically but its missing some variety, mostly just playing the other kiwis sometimes just feels like offbrand NPC...Highlanders results have got me down on the whole ting though so probably best to ignore me
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@kiwiwomble you could argue a full NPC over Super right now would have more appeal esp. with ABs and Super players all back in the provinces, it would provide more variety.
At least MP & Drua have provided something a little different this year, hopefully they will improve quickly.
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So we're to believe that the reason the All Blacks lost to Ireland and France last year is because the following players didn't have exposure to South African Super Rugby teams?
- Ardie Savea
- Sam Whitelock
- Brodie Retallick
- Nepo Laulala
- Codie Taylor
- Joe Moody
- Dane Coles
- Karl Tu’inukuafe
- Akira Ioane
- Ofa Tuungafasi
Yeah, nah.
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@antipodean said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
Yeah, nah.
Yeah, yeah. It's contributory for me; note the main reason but a factor. SA absence lets our forwards be less physical week to week. That makes it harder to lift when you need to. I keep sheeting home that there is a clear link between the quality of the domestic comp (Super) and the performance at International Level.
So, it's not the reason, but it's a factor in the reason.
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@nzzp Yeah, all those players listed forgot what combative forward play was. Experience you only get playing shit South African Super Rugby sides. New Zealand Super Rugby teams beating up on each other has lower intensity according to those who play.
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This AB seems to think its hard physically to play against SA.
[link text](link url)https://www.sarugbymag.co.za/whitelock-want-play-sa-teams-super-rugby/ -
And our wonderful AB coach thinks so as well
[link text](link url)https://www.planetrugby.com/super-rugby-misses-south-african-teams-all-blacks-coach-ian-foster/
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I too miss the Saffas, always liked having them in the comp, never understood why many were happy to see them leave. It's not good for the balance of rugby worldwide.
And in this era of streaming the timezone isn't an issue from a spectator point of view, like @Stargazer notes it's good to be able to get up in the morning and watch a match. I do that moist Sundays with whatever rugby was overnight on Stan (6 Nations, UK/Fr/Japan matches/one of the Oz matches).
And I think regardless of the results in the W/L columns the Saffas provided the comp with a different style. I'm not one who believes we need to emulate that style, nor the current NH style, I think if we start doing that we're in more trouble, but I think it was good to play against it.
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@nepia said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
I too miss the Saffas, always liked having them in the comp, never understood why many were happy to see them leave. It's not good for the balance of rugby worldwide.
And in this era of streaming the timezone isn't an issue from a spectator point of view, like @Stargazer notes it's good to be able to get up in the morning and watch a match. I do that moist Sundays with whatever rugby was overnight on Stan (6 Nations, UK/Fr/Japan matches/one of the Oz matches).
And I think regardless of the results in the W/L columns the Saffas provided the comp with a different style. I'm not one who believes we need to emulate that style, nor the current NH style, I think if we start doing that we're in more trouble, but I think it was good to play against it.
"moist Sundays"? TMI
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@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
This AB seems to think its hard physically to play against SA.
[link text](link url)https://www.sarugbymag.co.za/whitelock-want-play-sa-teams-super-rugby/HIs career:
Perhaps he misses winning and touring.
I see two disparate arguments in this thread:
- The reason we lost to Ireland and France is because we don't play South Africans in Super Rugby.
- I miss them in the competition.
I've said previously that South Africans played limited direct rugby because of their skillset. It was the only option available to them and they routinely lost. Their comparative size in the modern era is also a myth. The All Blacks I listed previously all have considerable experience playing South Africans so I find it difficult to accept the argument we're not used to physical rugby. Especially after everyone complained about the physicality of playing New Zealand sides week after week in Super Rugby Aotearoa.
Then there's the little problem with the wildly disparate ways both Ireland and France play.
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@antipodean said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
This AB seems to think its hard physically to play against SA.
[link text](link url)https://www.sarugbymag.co.za/whitelock-want-play-sa-teams-super-rugby/HIs career:
Perhaps he misses winning and touring.
I see two disparate arguments in this thread:
- The reason we lost to Ireland and France is because we don't play South Africans in Super Rugby.
- I miss them in the competition.
I've said previously that South Africans played limited direct rugby because of their skillset. It was the only option available to them and they routinely lost. Their comparative size in the modern era is also a myth. The All Blacks I listed previously all have considerable experience playing South Africans so I find it difficult to accept the argument we're not used to physical rugby. Especially after everyone complained about the physicality of playing New Zealand sides week after week in Super Rugby Aotearoa.
Then there's the little problem with the wildly disparate ways both Ireland and France play.
Not my argument I believe SA teams bring a point of difference in how they play.That adds to the players adapting to different ways of playing.
Diversity is great in sports it makes players grow instead of the same old ways.Even you must agree SR is weakening it is softer, weaker defense.
Lack of adaptability,Players are not thinking on their feet enough to different scenarios.
Playing teams with different patterns and game plans must be a learning experience.
Or are the AB's so great we don't need that.Nah that argument speaks for itself. -
@chris you're having your own argument.
IMO Super Rugby isn't the best competition because of expansion and flight of players to NH competitions. Towelling South African sides because their best players are in Europe isn't going to help us one iota.
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@antipodean said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris you're having your own argument.
IMO Super Rugby isn't the best competition because of expansion and flight of players to NH competitions. Towelling South African sides because their best players are in Europe isn't going to help us one iota.
We have different opinions then.
Let’s just carry on as is then.And see we’re it all ends up.Because SA teams are never coming back
They will stay in the worlds strongest comp in Europe. -
