Filling McCullums' Boots in ODIs

Virgil

Wasn't just any ordinary QuickFile 50 though was it? 
It was in the Cricket World Cup semi final, at home against one of the best ODI bowling attacks and we were facing pretty slim odds. It propelled us into the WC Final. 
Ask anyone who went to that game if they thought it was just a run of the mill ODI 50...

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="557877" data-time="1455098561">
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The beauty of cricket is stats very much DO tell the story
 
If you'd watched a lot of cricket but never seen Baz you'd see our openers come out & think "Ok, so these guys will be looking to bat big at least one of them will bat thru to 30 overs, they'll both try to, they'll try to get the score to 70 odd off 12-15 overs get set etc as thats what EVERYONE does (see SA yesterday for example)"
 
Then you'd look at Baz's stats & go "33 average, 150% strike rate, score a ton virtually never. OK so I'm now expecting him to smash seven shades of shit out of it & then get out WAY before 100"
 
Which is exactly what you'd get.
 
People who say "stats don't tell the story" invariably mean "stats don't tell the story I want to hear"
 
Like Steve Jobs going "so I can get normal treatment & have an 80% chance of living, or shove a grapefruit up my arse and wear a crystal & 100% die. Grapefruit in the arse it is! Stats don't tell the story!"
 
Ahhh but they do Steve. They do.
 
 
 
No its not. Kapil's average on subcontinent tracks was very much in line, statistically, with the best around. No other India quick was sub 30 in India, no one managed 10 wickets other than him, etc. Strike rate, economy etc. In the 80's, in India he had a better average than Imran & Akram. Every stat there is he is a HUGE outlier. Statisically just how good he was is right there. If you actually look.
 
Kapil is similar to McCullum in one way. He was an all time best - compared to other Indians. Globally he was just very very good. Baz was very very good compared to other Kiwis. Globally he was below average. But in both cases their stats show exactly the deal -
 
Kapil v other Indians - a god.
Kapil v Imran, Kallis, Sobers - solid but not in that league
 
Baz v Greatbatch, Ryder, Guppy, Astle - right up there
Baz v Sachin, Waugh, Gilchrest, Dilshan, Ponting, Sewag - fucking miles off
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No other Indian quick was sub 30 because they weren't very good. I can't imagine Pakistan conditions to be a hell of a lot different to India but they've produced some of the all time best.

dogmeat

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Virgil" data-cid="557895" data-time="1455126019">
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Wasn't just any ordinary QuickFile 50 though was it? 
It was in the Cricket World Cup semi final, at home against one of the best ODI bowling attacks and we were facing pretty slim odds. It propelled us into the WC Final. 
Ask anyone who went to that game if they thought it was just a run of the mill ODI 50...
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 I was at that game and I rate it as an occasion as one of 2-3 best sporting events I've ever attended.
 
However if I were to be (grudgingly) honest: the rain break had more to do with our victory than McCullum's innings or Elliot's or even me blowing the ball off trajectory so that the hairy javelin was dropped on the boundary

Virgil

Well the rain break isn't finishing up a 14 year career shortly tho is it so please stay on topic...

gollum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="557907" data-time="1455136787">
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No other Indian quick was sub 30 because they weren't very good. I can't imagine Pakistan conditions to be a hell of a lot different to India but they've produced some of the all time best.
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I'd hazard it has less to do with conditions & more to do with genetics.
 
To head off on a tangent, it that part of Asia inter group marriage is staggeringly rare, so where in the West we are very much a mess of genes, in India & Pakistan the gene pool is usually very concetrated & its astonishing at first travelling round there how various areas are blatently genetically a mile away from each other. In India I'm pretty much guarenteed to be the talest guy in the room, especially in the south. In Lahore & north of there I'm often the shortest. Northern Pakistan is, genetically, almost your ideal fast bowler. And not surprisingly its where all of Pakistans quicks hail from. Lahore is a production line for great quicks. And at a guess I expect if you gene tested the folks from there you'd find 99% was from that area way back.
 
In contrast NZers will be 10% scots, 15% Maori, 27% Pom, 3% tongan, etc.

nostrildamus

I'm not a professional rugby player (cue Pocock thread) so I am not totally up to speed with Indian genetics but I thought India was a bit of a melting pot:
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://genome.cshlp.org/content/13/10/2277.full'>http://genome.cshlp.org/content/13/10/2277.full</a>
Edit but even India has a few tall ones:
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/11631224/Indias-tallest-man-struggling-to-find-love-I-have-never-found-anyone-to-look-up-to.html'>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/11631224/Indias-tallest-man-struggling-to-find-love-I-have-never-found-anyone-to-look-up-to.html</a>
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2163617/Meet-Kulkarnis-Indias-tallest-family-combined-height-26ft-hope-set-new-world-record.html'>http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2163617/Meet-Kulkarnis-Indias-tallest-family-combined-height-26ft-hope-set-new-world-record.html</a>

gollum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="nostrildamus" data-cid="558057" data-time="1455192272">
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I'm not a professional rugby player (cue Pocock thread) so I am not totally up to speed with Indian genetics but I thought India was a bit of a melting pot:
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://genome.cshlp.org/content/13/10/2277.full'>http://genome.cshlp.org/content/13/10/2277.full</a>
Edit but even India has a few tall ones:
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/11631224/Indias-tallest-man-struggling-to-find-love-I-have-never-found-anyone-to-look-up-to.html'>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/11631224/Indias-tallest-man-struggling-to-find-love-I-have-never-found-anyone-to-look-up-to.html</a>
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2163617/Meet-Kulkarnis-Indias-tallest-family-combined-height-26ft-hope-set-new-world-record.html'>http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2163617/Meet-Kulkarnis-Indias-tallest-family-combined-height-26ft-hope-set-new-world-record.html</a>
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That study said that if you go back several 1000 years, yes, lots of genes. Thats true for almost everwhere that was part of a major continent. All through the middle east you see gingers from Alexanders guys coming through. But for the last few 100 years, no. Ie if you are a gujrati, 99/100 you are marrying a gujrati. Most likley a gujrati from within 100k of your village. Repeated all over.
 
A huge issue all though Asia is the tendancy to marry within your community.
 
It also notes that most of the population is common to central asian stock, ie munchkins.

Gunner

Can someone re-name this thread something like 'breeding programmes to produce the perfect cricketer', so I don't click back in here in the hope of reading about the NZ cricket team post McCullum. 
Ta.

Donsteppa

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Gunner" data-cid="558064" data-time="1455212638">Can someone re-name this thread something like 'breeding programmes to produce the perfect cricketer', so I don't click back in here in the hope of reading about the NZ cricket team post McCullum. 
Ta.</blockquote>
 
Are you new here?

KiwiPie

Interesting article on McCullum - sort of captures the discussion we've been having here.
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/971039.html'>http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/971039.html</a>

Virgil

Nice run through of his test career as well <a class="bbc_url" href="http://nzh.tw/11588290">http://nzh.tw/11588290</a>

gollum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Virgil" data-cid="558108" data-time="1455225728">
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Nice run through of his test career as well <a class="bbc_url" href="http://nzh.tw/11588290">http://nzh.tw/11588290</a>
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Thats quite grim reading actually. The standout bit is the way it kept going
 
"Australia / SA / England - fuck all"
"Bangladesh / India (not in India), a ton"
 
Repeat.

Siam

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="558388" data-time="1455279735">
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Thats quite grim reading actually. The standout bit is the way it kept going
 
"Australia / SA / England - fuck all"
"Bangladesh / India (not in India), a ton"
 
Repeat.
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Fuck me, they've moved Hyderabad!
 
Test 54, Hyderabad: c Dhoni b Sreesanth 4 c Raina b Sreesanth 225

gollum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="558391" data-time="1455280304">
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Fuck me, they've moved Hyderabad!
 
Test 54, Hyderabad: c Dhoni b Sreesanth 4 c Raina b Sreesanth 225
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Yep, you are right. He did manage a big ton in India. And another in UAE which takes some doing. Tho' it was a weird test where no one wanted to play it & no one seemed sure if they could bowl bouncers etc.
 
The point about SA, Aussie, poms etc stands tho. Go one, read thru that listing, its fucking grim.

Siam

Yep never a great batsman - test average of 38 and a few records is nothing too deriding though
 
But will forever have my admiration, and for me it's been thrilling and entertaining to watch him play

gollum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="558393" data-time="1455281110">
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Yep never a great batsman - test average of 38 and a few records is nothing too deriding though
 
But will forever have my admiration, and for me it's been thrilling and entertaining to watch him play
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The bit that irks me on this is he is, without any shadow of a doubt, our finest T20 batsman ever. And genuinely up there with the best T20 batsmen in the game. Anywhere. And far & away our best ever ODI keeper, and at least in the frame for our best test keeper.
 
But the press seem hell bent on trying to pile on stuff that isn't there. Its like this staggeringly sad chip on shoulder / small country thing to pretend its more than it is. When the actual stuff is pretty fucking impressive. I've switched to the aussie comentary because the degree to which Ian Smith is losing his shit is amazing. It gets worse when you have our press trying to get the Aussies to say how amazing he is & yet not go "You know Aaron Finch has 7 tons in 55 ODIs right? & can't get anywhere near the test team". Its almost painful.

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="558395" data-time="1455281881">
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The bit that irks me on this is he is, without any shadow of a doubt, our finest T20 batsman ever. And genuinely up there with the best T20 batsmen in the game. Anywhere. And far & away our best ever ODI keeper, and at least in the frame for our best test keeper.
 
But the press seem hell bent on trying to pile on stuff that isn't there. Its like this staggeringly sad chip on shoulder / small country thing to pretend its more than it is. When the actual stuff is pretty fucking impressive. I've switched to the aussie comentary because the degree to which Ian Smith is losing his shit is amazing. It gets worse when you have our press trying to get the Aussies to say how amazing he is & yet not go "You know Aaron Finch has 7 tons in 55 ODIs right? & can't get anywhere near the test team". Its almost painful.
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To me it's a bit like if the media got all misty-eyed over Keven Mealamu when he retired. Obviously they didn't because bigger names retired simultaneously but if people started prattling on and suggesting her was the best tight forward of his era (let a lone all time) then for someone who actually watched most of those games you would begin to wonder if you watched different games over the past decade.
 
Both had long careers to be sure and were certainly very talented in specific facets/styles of game but to their core role they regularly struggled at the very top level and were never close to being the best player on their team and never head and shoulders the best in their position. Both had impressive careers but it should be seen as churlish to correct the record when others start waxing lyrical about match winning efforts that never happened.
 
The praise being lavished on McCullum for his 100th is so markedly different from Vettori and Fleming - it's very strange, some definite media suckling to be sure.

Siam

Best NZ cricket captain ever, retiring. That's worth a bit of palaver

gollum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="558399" data-time="1455293189">
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Best NZ cricket captain ever, retiring. That's worth a bit of palaver
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See, I don't buy that either.
 
Possibly the best leader with had... yeah. IE a guy wjo was at the core of setting a great ciulture & inspiring the guys.... but captain? IE the guy who's job it is to make the right decisions & smart calls on the park? I'd contrast Baz with his "attack, then attack more, then attack" with say Crowe's captaincy at the 1992 WC, or Fleming in Australia, Fleming verbally going at Graham Smith etc. Great captains have more than one gear.
 
To me calling him our best ever captain is just another go at over reaching to try to heap praise on the guy.

Bovidae

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="558397" data-time="1455289612">
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To me it's a bit like if the media got all misty-eyed over Keven Mealamu when he retired. Obviously they didn't because bigger names retired simultaneously but if people started prattling on and suggesting her was the best tight forward of his era (let a lone all time) then for someone who actually watched most of those games you would begin to wonder if you watched different games over the past decade.
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The funny thing about Mealamu is when the media mentioned all of the ABs who would be retiring after RWC 2015 he was often forgotten and not mentioned at all. Sumo was one person who was guilty of doing exactly that!
 
Back to McCullum, often the media over-reacts "in the moment" but with the benefit of hindsight and time, a more accurate portrayal of their standing in the game becomes apparent. If NZ continues to do well (by our standards) with this current group of players McCullum's standing as a leader/captain will be diminshed somewhat. Conversely, if we begin to struggle his "legend" grows. As I say, hindsight.
 
At this point in time, BMac will be in the NZ cricket record books as having the highest test score. He should be extremely proud of that achievement.

The Silver Fern

Filling McCullums&#39; Boots in ODIs

Filling McCullums' Boots in ODIs