Wallabies v France 3
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@gibbonrib said in Wallabies v France 3:
Reckon some of you guys watch too much league. (Being Welsh, I'd say that any league is too mich league). The NH is starting to take brain injury seriously, but I'd say the SH - and in particular Oz - is a little behind. NRL seems to allow hits to the head that to my unconcussed mind should be consigned to history, and maybe that influences union watchers too.
My immediate impression was that it was a perfect tackle, but after seeing all the replays I don't think Marika can have too many complaints. Malice and intent are totally irrelevant for head contact, have been for a few years. Thr tackler has to avoid the head, and Marika's tackle involved head contact, which is a straight red unless there is sufficient mitigation to downgrade.
Agree that the French guy might have been hamming it up, but it didn't influence the decision. He did dip, but only a very small amount and just a natural adjustment to brace for the impact. I wasn't sure if the first contact was head, even after all the replays, but if it was shoulder or chest first it was so marginal as to not affect the outcome.
Another ref on another day might have said that was enough mitigation to downgrade to a yellow, but that's your best case outcome. The Wallabies have known that for a few years, and they need to adjust for it. Accidents can happen, they want to play on the edge and it's hard to get it right every time, especially when you're a massive unit like Koroibete travelling at Mach speed. But that's a skill that has to be practiced like any other.
The nonsense from the commentators was disappointing, I thought we might have left behind the "I'm all for player safety, but when it impacts my enjoyment of the game it's gone too far" nonsense when they got rid of Fox Sport, but unfortunately not.
The other thing that people miss is the aggravating factor that cancels out the mitigating one.
Yes the ball carrier dipped to brace himself however the tackler was a long way out when that movement started and he is the one that has to take care. He had clear line of sight and the ability to adjust. If he continued to aim high and even drove upward in the tackle then he can't really complain that it 'went wrong'
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@cgrant said in Wallabies v France 3:
While this was a B or C rated French team, the same could nearly apply to the Wallabies.
They were missing JOC and Jordan Petaia, but also Kurtley Beale, Isaac Rodda, R. Arnold, Will Skelton, Samu Kerevi, just to name a few.Not sure that Beale and Skelton would be in Aussies best 23 (or 24).
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@nepia said in Wallabies v France 3:
@barbarian TBH, I think that was one of the most exciting games and best advertisements for the Wallabies and rugby.
Yes, in hindsight it all worked out perfectly. But in the 5th minute that seemed very unlikely.
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@barbarian said in Wallabies v France 3:
@gibbonrib said in Wallabies v France 3:
The nonsense from the commentators was disappointing, I thought we might have left behind the "I'm all for player safety, but when it impacts my enjoyment of the game it's gone too far" nonsense when they got rid of Fox Sport, but unfortunately not.
You make a few good points here. But just on this one for a second - there was a wider context here that non-Aussies may not pick up.
This was a huge game for the code. The series had picked up quite a bit of momentum, it had been shifted to the main FTA channel, and there was a big audience and more anticipation for a rugby game here than there has been for a few years.
There was a lot riding on a Wallaby win, and/or an entertaining game that gets a big TV audience and keeps them.
So to have a red card that could be described maybe as marginal in the 5th minute to the Wallabies best (and arguably most recognisable) player, it just took the wind out of everyone here, myself included. It's not surprising that frustration bubbled over a bit.
Yeah I understand the context - I'm Welsh, but I've been living in Australia for 18 years, so I've been following it closely. I'm really hopeful the big reset will help stabilise rugby here and give it a platform to grow. The relationship with Fox had clearly gotten toxic, so hoping that having FTA on 9, Super AU, change to the classic gold shirts etc. will give it a huge lift.
So the frustration and disappointment is totally understandable. But it was totally misdirected. They could have talked about how Marika got it wrong, or it was just a bit unlucky / a great shame, but instead they all piled onto the officials for basically correctly applying the laws.
It's deeply worrying to me, because they seem to be determined to make exactly the same massive mistakes that Fox did. I'm going to make a huge generalisation here, but Australian rugby fans are far less knowledgeable about the game than, say, the Kiwis or Welsh. So the commentators have a responsibility to help explain stuff. But instead they're choosing to go for the easy outrage option, just like Fox.
Do you remember in the last world cup when Gareth Davies picked off Genia's pass to score an intercept try? It looked to everyone like he was a mile offside, but the ref allowed it. The Aussie commentators all went into absolute meltdown because he didn't even go to the TMO to check. Turns out Davies was absolutely onside, he just read and timed it perfectly. When you see the replay from the right angle it's not even in doubt. But the Aussie TV never showed that angle, even during the HT / post match analysis (and Cheikas presser) they just kept banging on about the outrageous injustice. To this day most Aussie fans think they were robbed. Fox could have taken the moment to educate and highlight a good bit of skill, but preferred the "we were robbed" and "incompetent officials are killing the game" outrage.
I'm just praying that 9 / Stan don't follow that same tack. I'm hopeful they won't, 9 actually want rugby to succeed. For the last few years it felt like Fox were negging rugby at every possible opportunity. (Trying to reduce the value ahead of negotiations? Or maybe they knew they had no future and were just trying to tarnish it for whoever took it over next).
And in the end it all worked out pretty well - an amazing match, an amazing series, and a win for the Wallabies against the odds.
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@barbarian it would be interesting to know how many viewers switched the rugby off after the card. I didn't watch the game, but as a casual viewer I have been known to 'change channels' when there is a card, red or yellow. The odds are I would have given up watching that game.
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@crazy-horse If they did, I hope they read the report and are regretting it ...
Do you think they would have been less likely to switch off if the commentators had given a more balanced explanation as to why the red was given?
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@gibbonrib said in Wallabies v France 3:
@crazy-horse If they did, I hope they read the report and are regretting it ...
Do you think they would have been less likely to switch off if the commentators had given a more balanced explanation as to why the red was given?
Don't know. It wouldn't have made a difference to me because cards have been cheesing me off for years. I flat out do not like them.
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@crazy-horse said in Wallabies v France 3:
@barbarian it would be interesting to know how many viewers switched the rugby off after the card. I didn't watch the game, but as a casual viewer I have been known to 'change channels' when there is a card, red or yellow. The odds are I would have given up watching that game.
I almost did, glad I didn't.
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@gibbonrib said in Wallabies v France 3:
@barbarian said in Wallabies v France 3:
@gibbonrib said in Wallabies v France 3:
The nonsense from the commentators was disappointing, I thought we might have left behind the "I'm all for player safety, but when it impacts my enjoyment of the game it's gone too far" nonsense when they got rid of Fox Sport, but unfortunately not.
You make a few good points here. But just on this one for a second - there was a wider context here that non-Aussies may not pick up.
This was a huge game for the code. The series had picked up quite a bit of momentum, it had been shifted to the main FTA channel, and there was a big audience and more anticipation for a rugby game here than there has been for a few years.
There was a lot riding on a Wallaby win, and/or an entertaining game that gets a big TV audience and keeps them.
So to have a red card that could be described maybe as marginal in the 5th minute to the Wallabies best (and arguably most recognisable) player, it just took the wind out of everyone here, myself included. It's not surprising that frustration bubbled over a bit.
Yeah I understand the context - I'm Welsh, but I've been living in Australia for 18 years, so I've been following it closely. I'm really hopeful the big reset will help stabilise rugby here and give it a platform to grow. The relationship with Fox had clearly gotten toxic, so hoping that having FTA on 9, Super AU, change to the classic gold shirts etc. will give it a huge lift.
So the frustration and disappointment is totally understandable. But it was totally misdirected. They could have talked about how Marika got it wrong, or it was just a bit unlucky / a great shame, but instead they all piled onto the officials for basically correctly applying the laws.
It's deeply worrying to me, because they seem to be determined to make exactly the same massive mistakes that Fox did. I'm going to make a huge generalisation here, but Australian rugby fans are far less knowledgeable about the game than, say, the Kiwis or Welsh. So the commentators have a responsibility to help explain stuff. But instead they're choosing to go for the easy outrage option, just like Fox.
Do you remember in the last world cup when Gareth Davies picked off Genia's pass to score an intercept try? It looked to everyone like he was a mile offside, but the ref allowed it. The Aussie commentators all went into absolute meltdown because he didn't even go to the TMO to check. Turns out Davies was absolutely onside, he just read and timed it perfectly. When you see the replay from the right angle it's not even in doubt. But the Aussie TV never showed that angle, even during the HT / post match analysis (and Cheikas presser) they just kept banging on about the outrageous injustice. To this day most Aussie fans think they were robbed. Fox could have taken the moment to educate and highlight a good bit of skill, but preferred the "we were robbed" and "incompetent officials are killing the game" outrage.
I'm just praying that 9 / Stan don't follow that same tack. I'm hopeful they won't, 9 actually want rugby to succeed. For the last few years it felt like Fox were negging rugby at every possible opportunity. (Trying to reduce the value ahead of negotiations? Or maybe they knew they had no future and were just trying to tarnish it for whoever took it over next).
And in the end it all worked out pretty well - an amazing match, an amazing series, and a win for the Wallabies against the odds.
don't disagree with the overall gist, and i certainly think Fox totally fucked up their approach to rugby but...
dude, the implication that ref bashing and "hard done by, woe is me" commentary and fan attitude is very much not the sole domain of Australia is so so wrong. I have lost count of how many times the ABs have gone North in November and basically only won because the ref is fucking up. Commentary during the game that is nothing more than an ongoing whinge, and then online chatter for the next, oh i don't know, are the Irish still going on about Sam Cane not getting a red card?
Ref bashing when you lose is the only truly global piece of rugby. And its easy because test rugby is impossible to ref, and 47 camera angles and HD slo-mo makes drumming up outrage super easy.
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@cgrant said in Wallabies v France 3:
While this was a B or C rated French team, the same could nearly apply to the Wallabies.
They were missing JOC and Jordan Petaia, but also Kurtley Beale, Isaac Rodda, R. Arnold, Will Skelton, Samu Kerevi, just to name a few.And Koroibete…
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@toddy said in Wallabies v France 3:
How did the Welsh react to Warburton's red card during 2011? I know Warburton has a whinge about it in his autobiography.
no no no, the Welsh are far too intelligent for that
you just confused the accent.
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Ah yeah, you're right that fans and media are one-eyed and biased the whole world over. Didn't mean to imply this was an exclusively Aussie trait. But I reckon that the lack of balance and intelligence in the TV coverage is worse here than other places I've seen. And combined with the fact that people, generally, don't have as in depth knowledge - which is understandable since union is not the major sport here - makes the problem bigger and self-perpetuating.
I'll admit that Welsh fans are as rabid and one-eyed as anyone. But take Sam Warburton's red card in the 2011 RWC semifinal - that could have been a yellow on another day, and I'm very confident we would have won if it was. Most Welsh fans will, through gritted teeth, admit that a red was reasonable if a little unlucky. Because the TV didn't rant and rave about was an appalling injustice it was and how it was the death of rugby. I reckon if that happened to the Wallabies they'd still be talking about taking it to CAS in Lausanne.
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@toddy
Ha, I didn't see this until after I posted above.My short answer is "better than the Aussies would have". Given that it was the (joint) biggest game in the history of Welsh rugby, and it was a bit of an unlucky call, I'd say they / we took it pretty well. I haven't read Warbs' book, but elsewhere he's been been very magnanimous and has said he had no complaints with the ref's decision.
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@gibbonrib said in Wallabies v France 3:
Ah yeah, you're right that fans and media are one-eyed and biased the whole world over. Didn't mean to imply this was an exclusively Aussie trait. But I reckon that the lack of balance and intelligence in the TV coverage is worse here than other places I've seen.
I think it's gotten much better since Phil Kearns has left the commentary box.
He was genuinely obsessed with refereeing injustice, and would harp on the whole game about missed decisions, or wrong decisions.
Since his departure I find the instances of 'they've been offside all day' has gone way down.
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@barbarian I'm 100% with you on that one, it was always hard going watching a match with him on the mic
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@gibbonrib said in Wallabies v France 3:
@barbarian I'm 100% with you on that one, it was always hard going watching a match with him on the mic
He became a parody of himself in the end.
In the early days it was almost revolutionary, and I think it really resonated with fans who were used to the dry Gordon Bray types who would never dare question a decision. The All Blacks really ARE offside all day! I knew it!
But then it grew to become his whole schtick, and he never saw how much it detracted from the coverage. It just ended up sounding bitter, especially when he was wrong just as much as he was right.
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I don't actually mind a biased commentator too much, as long as it's balanced by the rest of the team. If Kearns was being Kearns, but someone else had the balls to call him out when he was talking shite it might be OK. But when the whole team just agrees on everything all the time, it's a bit much. Especially when they're objectively wrong.
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The NZ coverage is diabolical as well as you'd note reading the AB game threads. The comms, who don't even seem to have a basic understanding of the laws, are constantly bitching about them and disagreeing with the ref decisions etc. It's really tiresome to listen to - rugby is a dynamic, fluid game that is an absolute spectacle to watch if you take it for what it is and don't constantly sweat the small stuff. It's nearly impossible to ref - the best refs like Owen's aren't the best because they apply the law to the letter, they are the best because they have a great, undefinable, "feel" for the game and allow it to flow.
I do wish comms and the media would stop bitching about micro decisions and spend more time celebrating the game and the insane skill levels and commitment of the players on display.
