All Blacks 2021
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
at the moment I am more perplexed about the reasoning for selecting Joe Schmidt if he is a selector only, and not helping as assistant coach
NZbloke said :
Schmidt will definitely have a big role to play as an assistant coach... those idiots Foster & Plumtree need all the help they can get. -
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2021:
I think he can use his pace at 13.
He can use his deadly pace at times in the midfield, but he's not going to get many opportunities to do that as a midfielder as that's where all the heavy traffic is... as a winger he'll certainly get more opportunities to use his gas, which is the blokes strength.
It's not 2003 any more, there isn't much in the way of space out there either, teams at test level are too good at holding their width.
The thinking is the genuine pace at 13 will allow outside breaks to beat umbrella style defences and punish wingers who stay rigidly on their man.
It's not the only way to skin a cat, but I can see the merit in it.There's more space on the wings than in a very congested midfield area... we need our fastest backs in the back 3 positions.
We can't get the ball out there against a rush defence. Stand deep enough so a centre can receive and pass the ball and modern defences have already tracked to the winger. It's 2022.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2021:
I think he can use his pace at 13.
He can use his deadly pace at times in the midfield, but he's not going to get many opportunities to do that as a midfielder as that's where all the heavy traffic is... as a winger he'll certainly get more opportunities to use his gas, which is the blokes strength.
It's not 2003 any more, there isn't much in the way of space out there either, teams at test level are too good at holding their width.
The thinking is the genuine pace at 13 will allow outside breaks to beat umbrella style defences and punish wingers who stay rigidly on their man.
It's not the only way to skin a cat, but I can see the merit in it.There's more space on the wings than in a very congested midfield area... we need our fastest backs in the back 3 positions.
We can't get the ball out there against a rush defence. Stand deep enough so a centre can receive and pass the ball and modern defences have already tracked to the winger. It's 2022.
Standing a bit deeper so your centre can run onto the ball isn't going to make much diff when a flat defence comes up in a straight line, they're just going to smother the movement, against an umbrella defence you might get away with it now & again, but most defences come up in a straight line most of the time.
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@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2021:
I think he can use his pace at 13.
He can use his deadly pace at times in the midfield, but he's not going to get many opportunities to do that as a midfielder as that's where all the heavy traffic is... as a winger he'll certainly get more opportunities to use his gas, which is the blokes strength.
It's not 2003 any more, there isn't much in the way of space out there either, teams at test level are too good at holding their width.
The thinking is the genuine pace at 13 will allow outside breaks to beat umbrella style defences and punish wingers who stay rigidly on their man.
It's not the only way to skin a cat, but I can see the merit in it.There's more space on the wings than in a very congested midfield area... we need our fastest backs in the back 3 positions.
We can't get the ball out there against a rush defence. Stand deep enough so a centre can receive and pass the ball and modern defences have already tracked to the winger. It's 2022.
Standing a bit deeper so your centre can run onto the ball isn't going to make much diff when a flat defence comes up in a straight line, they're just going to smother the movement, against an umbrella defence you might get away with it now & again, but most defences come up in a straight line most of the time.
Modern defences don't - the centres are busy shooting up to force the attack back towards the previous ruck or to isolate defenders because to support a tackled player who is behind them is disadvantageous for the attackers.
The way to prevent this is twofold:
- Put the ball into space behind the defenders so you can regather or prevents them shooting up taking your time and space away, or
- Attack around the fringes drawing defenders in, moving forward so you can attack with momentum, width and numerical superiority.
In both instances you need a five-eighth who takes the ball forward preventing defences from drifting. Carter and Cruden did this well.
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@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2021:
I think he can use his pace at 13.
He can use his deadly pace at times in the midfield, but he's not going to get many opportunities to do that as a midfielder as that's where all the heavy traffic is... as a winger he'll certainly get more opportunities to use his gas, which is the blokes strength.
It's not 2003 any more, there isn't much in the way of space out there either, teams at test level are too good at holding their width.
The thinking is the genuine pace at 13 will allow outside breaks to beat umbrella style defences and punish wingers who stay rigidly on their man.
It's not the only way to skin a cat, but I can see the merit in it.There's more space on the wings than in a very congested midfield area... we need our fastest backs in the back 3 positions.
We can't get the ball out there against a rush defence. Stand deep enough so a centre can receive and pass the ball and modern defences have already tracked to the winger. It's 2022.
Standing a bit deeper so your centre can run onto the ball isn't going to make much diff when a flat defence comes up in a straight line, they're just going to smother the movement, against an umbrella defence you might get away with it now & again, but most defences come up in a straight line most of the time.
isn;t that the issue though...you stick your fastest strike weapons on the wing, if we're not standing deeper to enable to ball time to get to them...how are we using them?
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
but at the moment I am more perplexed about the reasoning for selecting Joe Schmidt if he is a selector only
Reasoning, I'm more worried about the outcome of his selectorial role.
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@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
but at the moment I am more perplexed about the reasoning for selecting Joe Schmidt if he is a selector only
Reasoning, I'm more worried about the outcome of his selectorial role.
Lavea? You have just whooshed me...
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
but at the moment I am more perplexed about the reasoning for selecting Joe Schmidt if he is a selector only
Reasoning, I'm more worried about the outcome of his selectorial role.
Lavea? You have just whooshed me...
It's my 18 year attempt to win the broken record of the century award.
As backs coach of the Blues Schmidt favoured Lavea over Spencer when he came into the coaching team after the Blues outstanding 2003 season. I've held a grudge ever since.
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@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
but at the moment I am more perplexed about the reasoning for selecting Joe Schmidt if he is a selector only
Reasoning, I'm more worried about the outcome of his selectorial role.
Lavea? You have just whooshed me...
It's my 18 year attempt to win the broken record of the century award.
As backs coach of the Blues Schmidt favoured Lavea over Spencer when he came into the coaching team after the Blues outstanding 2003 season. I've held a grudge ever since.
Wow, that is some rusty drum. I just hope there isn't a Lavea jnr playing at 10 somewhere..
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@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
As backs coach of the Blues Schmidt favoured Lavea over Spencer when he came into the coaching team after the Blues outstanding 2003 season. I've held a grudge ever since.
If you go back and look Schmidt came into the Blues in 2005 (after Carlos was dropped/rested from the ABs end of year tour 2004) and Carlos started at 10 the first 4 games of 2005. In game 4 the Blues got smashed by 20+ points by the Crusaders and it was after that the Blues went to Lavea - after which the Blues went on a 4 game win streak with Lavea at 10. Whilst Lavea obviously didn't pan out at Super level I think by that stage Carlos was on his way out anyway and had signed to go with Northampton before the season was over.
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@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
but at the moment I am more perplexed about the reasoning for selecting Joe Schmidt if he is a selector only
Reasoning, I'm more worried about the outcome of his selectorial role.
....and Lavea quit as Counties coach as well!
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2021:
I think he can use his pace at 13.
He can use his deadly pace at times in the midfield, but he's not going to get many opportunities to do that as a midfielder as that's where all the heavy traffic is... as a winger he'll certainly get more opportunities to use his gas, which is the blokes strength.
It's not 2003 any more, there isn't much in the way of space out there either, teams at test level are too good at holding their width.
The thinking is the genuine pace at 13 will allow outside breaks to beat umbrella style defences and punish wingers who stay rigidly on their man.
It's not the only way to skin a cat, but I can see the merit in it.There's more space on the wings than in a very congested midfield area... we need our fastest backs in the back 3 positions.
We can't get the ball out there against a rush defence. Stand deep enough so a centre can receive and pass the ball and modern defences have already tracked to the winger. It's 2022.
Standing a bit deeper so your centre can run onto the ball isn't going to make much diff when a flat defence comes up in a straight line, they're just going to smother the movement, against an umbrella defence you might get away with it now & again, but most defences come up in a straight line most of the time.
Modern defences don't - the centres are busy shooting up to force the attack back towards the previous ruck or to isolate defenders because to support a tackled player who is behind them is disadvantageous for the attackers.
The way to prevent this is twofold:
- Put the ball into space behind the defenders so you can regather or prevents them shooting up taking your time and space away, or
- Attack around the fringes drawing defenders in, moving forward so you can attack with momentum, width and numerical superiority.
In both instances you need a five-eighth who takes the ball forward preventing defences from drifting. Carter and Cruden did this well.
Agree, all very good points... but the forwards play a huge part if they can recycle the ball quickly, consistently getting good numbers to clean out through the phases, giving the backs more space & time, as the flat defences will have less time to set their defensive pattern.
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2021:
I think he can use his pace at 13.
He can use his deadly pace at times in the midfield, but he's not going to get many opportunities to do that as a midfielder as that's where all the heavy traffic is... as a winger he'll certainly get more opportunities to use his gas, which is the blokes strength.
It's not 2003 any more, there isn't much in the way of space out there either, teams at test level are too good at holding their width.
The thinking is the genuine pace at 13 will allow outside breaks to beat umbrella style defences and punish wingers who stay rigidly on their man.
It's not the only way to skin a cat, but I can see the merit in it.There's more space on the wings than in a very congested midfield area... we need our fastest backs in the back 3 positions.
We can't get the ball out there against a rush defence. Stand deep enough so a centre can receive and pass the ball and modern defences have already tracked to the winger. It's 2022.
Standing a bit deeper so your centre can run onto the ball isn't going to make much diff when a flat defence comes up in a straight line, they're just going to smother the movement, against an umbrella defence you might get away with it now & again, but most defences come up in a straight line most of the time.
isn;t that the issue though...you stick your fastest strike weapons on the wing, if we're not standing deeper to enable to ball time to get to them...how are we using them?
With all these flat defences reckon the backs should make the most of set piece opportunities... the loosies have to stay attached to the scrum, if you have the feed & you have a solid scrum platform to work from you have a great chance to fire the ball out wide quickly etc, trying to make the most of the back on back situations.
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@nzbloke youre not wrong but you haven't address why we couldn't do that, even of a solid if not dominant scrum this year the ball was struggling to get past midfield against the rush
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke youre not wrong but you haven't address why we couldn't do that, even of a solid if not dominant scrum this year the ball was struggling to get past midfield against the rush
Reckon we might be stuffing around at the back of the scrum too much as we should be able to make more use of those type of situations because the opposition forwards are committed to the scrum, making it harder for them to run out & fan across the field.
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@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke youre not wrong but you haven't address why we couldn't do that, even of a solid if not dominant scrum this year the ball was struggling to get past midfield against the rush
Reckon we might be stuffing around at the back of the scrum too much as we should be able to make more use of those type of situations because the opposition forwards are committed to the scrum, making it harder to run across & fan out across the field.
Defence still cant move forward from 5m back until the halfback has lifted the ball.
Problem is that what you are suggesting is simple is far from it. To get the ball wide fast backlines need to stand deep otherwise the centres are flatfooted after two passes. That in turn means that you need to move forward before passing to create a 'whip' to the wing. All of this plays into the hands of the defence who can drift or make options risky.
The problem as discussed is the defences being trained hard to rush added to the refs allowing them an early jump.
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@crucial yeah, i think there has to be another answer other than do what we've been doing but better
I dont watch a lot of things like the six nations, how are other teams handling it? just dont try and go wide until the forward have drawn in a couple of backs? keep it tight until the backline feels they're going backwards and so comes in a bit to support the defence and then go wide fast?
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There are tactics though, that can help.
As you say, the scrum is a good place to attack from against a rush defence but you need to ignore the temptation to go wide.
If you stand flatter and have skills to put the ball behind the defence you can catch the forwards out of position as well.
Stand too deep before popping a kick and you'll find a second line of defence or extra bodies cutting down space to kick into. That's how fast defence move around these days at the top levels.
A well executed chip over the midfield defence a few times will hold the fullback in place as sweeper. Once you read their positioning you aim for gaps to create pressure and maybe a winger holds back as well. That's when the skip to the wing will get ground and keep possession. You need to spend a bit of money to make make money.
This takes skills that our tens haven't grown up with and don't find instinctive (let alone our 12s or 13s). School teams base themselves on the easy gains made by oversized midfields and expect 10s to shovel the ball on like an extra 9.
The 'professionalism' of the college game has contributed a lot to some aspects of our game but taken away the development skills of 10s IMO. How many promising pivots take a step up to higher levels and only then have to satrt learning tactical kicking from hand and the decision making that goes with that?
