All Blacks 2021
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 they're definitely doing a job i wouldn't want to do, thats why im mostly interesting in law without any need for interpretation or subjective decisions, make the rules as black and white as possible
I suspect that may please some of us KW, but not a lot, I think when I have been at games etc I find in general most abuse of refs is from people who don't understand the most basic of laws, and (same as TV) can't get it through their heads that unless you are pretty well (or tv camera is)in line with a breakdown, you can't see who is offside anyway.. And many see a pile up and scream about offsides etc and don't realise a ruck hasn't even formed, etc.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
And it is not that we lost to them but the convincing way in which we lost to them (Ireland, Argentina, France) and after we had plenty of time to improve and change strategies.
But the same could be said of the coaching team in '09. And the coaching team in 2012/3. As for convincing losses, remember England in 2012, the Wobbles in Hong Kong?
I hear the sound of goal-posts being moved.....
you mean your 2009 goalposts?! The ones you brought into the conversation?!
No. After you criticised him for saying he had the coaching group he wanted yet lost 2 games, I pointed out that the coaching team in 2009 had a much, much worse loss record than Foster and also mentioned we had been close to losing against Ireland & Argentina long before Foster.
So you did bring 2009 into it then.
Actually I said he apparently had an ideal coaching team, yet he still lost important games, the implication being it can't have been ideal.
Then you replied the 2009 team lost but I don't see a quote from you from the 2009 head coach that he thought his team was "ideal" or proof he chose them. So your whole point is moot and besides I don't care, the 2009 coach is not the 2022 AB coach who will also be the next RWC coach. So yes you were changing the goalposts.It's a pretty fair argument to say the the nature of the losses were uniquely bad under Foster (which can be debated as I pointed out). But it's a different argument from the one you used earlier - but that's cool as it's obviously in the best traditions of the Fern....
Not a different argument given Foster said he had the ideal coaching team.
My point is fairly simple, either Foster believes his team is ideal or it isn't.
If it is ideal he should ideally win against Ireland and Argentina. If that is impossible he should not lose so badly either unless that is the best the ABs could be.
Therefore either his judgement is wrong or our record really is ideal (it is as good as it gets i.e. the ABs can't perform any better, given such ideal coaches).And if he claims they are his ideal team then either he is responsible for choosing the assistant head coaches OR he must believe he would have chosen them regardless as they are apparently "ideal".
Ian Foster will be his own man as All Blacks head coach
After spending eight years as assistant to Steve Hansen, New Zealand head coach Ian Foster knows he must be his own man.
"Now it's time for you to see me in a new light and that's up to me to show you that I'm innovative, I've got a sense of direction of where I want this team to go, and I'm extremely passionate about adding a new touch to it and to really grow and get some mana back on the field, which we feel we might have lost."And Foster promised to show himself in a new light
--Innovation
--Sense of direction
--New touch
--Mana back on the fieldHow can he do all that if he does not pick the assistants? Is he lying to us?
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/118112502/ian-foster-a-done-deal-tvnz-sources-report"It's been eight years with the All Blacks, I've learned a lot. But I need to take my own ideas," Foster said.I am using his words and focusing on what he has promised and claimed. I don't need to go back to 2009 or compare to other coaches. So I don't agree that it is me who is trying to change the goalposts.
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@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
Maybe it is time to make the 5 metre rule apply to rucks as well?
Doesn't even need to be that - just make it 1 or 2 metres and that essentially gets us to where we want to be - it's doesn't need to be policed hardline.
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@arhs said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
this current coaching staff are clueless, so we need to select a good coaching that will then select the right players from our Super comp etc.
So just who are the players the clueless selectors missed last year. I saw only Tom Robinson and Caleb Clarke missing out, and both were taken out of the equation any way. They chose the best group available in my opinion, and had to have an extended squad to cover covid and miq complications and contingencies.
Most of the squad was pretty obvious to select - not saying there were too many others that should've been selected in the squad, reckon Umaga-Jensen is one of them though, we are very average in the midfield at the moment.
Rieko Ioane is playing out of position, he's always getting caught out defending as a midfielder, put him back on the wing where he belongs so the bloke can use that tremendous speed he has - also our strength is playing a fast paced game, so why play the 113kg Papalii at 7, we need fast opensides that have the pace to link up with the backs... play the players in positions where you're going to get the best value out of them.
Unfortunately Foster & co are stuffing up the strength of our game up with all this aimless kicking, which then means we have to tackle more, also our deadly backs are not getting enough attacking opportunities. -
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
Maybe it is time to make the 5 metre rule apply to rucks as well?
You'll just have people crying that they aren't five metres back. The solution is to have competent officials, not keep changing the rules.
Of course you want competent refs involved, the trouble is all the referees around the world are not refereeing properly when it comes to the offside rule, in fact bloody poorly.
Sometimes the rules need to be adjusted so the game flows better making it a better watch too, unfortunately the IRB keep adding new laws every years year, which just continues to overcomplicate the game even more.Untrue.
It is the different competitions and ref groups that seem to alter interpretations (then lose focus ) and WR will also allow law trials in different areas.
To me the biggest 'problem' is interpretation of materiality between refs. It is left to opinion and 'feel' of the game.
Quite often refs will be totally aware of rushing outsides that are offside but interpret that as it is a long way from play there is no effect. Others will ping it. Some only call close of midfield overstepping, some only call it in the attacking zone.
In fact 'attacking zone' is also a bugbear of mine. For a team that can attack and create breaks from anywhere offside play from the defence is often ignored out wide right where they would like to send the ball.
That's also where a good captain will come in.My point is the IRB tamper with the rules a lot so overcomplicate the game.
The breakdown area is open to a heap of interpretation, it's much easier for a ref to see if someone is offside or not though, they also have linemen's to assist them... it's not just about the captain on the field in decision making, his leadership group contribute as well.
There are no linesmen. There are assistant refs and they are more interested in manufacturing incidents of foul play than patrolling the offside line
Whatever you want to call them they still assist the ref... we know all the so called officials out on the field do a poor job.
I disagree completely, I think in most cases the refs in rugby do a bloody good job. The spectators that watch the game in many cases are awful confused on the laws etc!
And sorry mate, I would hate the 5 metre back from a ruck etc to become law. If anyone wants attacking and defending teams kept 10m apart there is a game called league to follow.
Disagree...
Can understand why the breakdown area is such a nightmare for refs as the rules there are wide open for too much interpretation... but refs are definitely not doing a good job with the offside rule, all flat defences lined across the field are way offside, not saying for them to stand back too far, but at least stay onside enough so we can watch a good game of rubgy.Did make the point earlier they don't have to be 5 metres back from a ruck, but the ref needs to make sure they stand back a bit more than they do... really peeves me off when players comes in from the side of rucks & gets away with it.
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@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
Maybe it is time to make the 5 metre rule apply to rucks as well?
You'll just have people crying that they aren't five metres back. The solution is to have competent officials, not keep changing the rules.
Of course you want competent refs involved, the trouble is all the referees around the world are not refereeing properly when it comes to the offside rule, in fact bloody poorly.
Sometimes the rules need to be adjusted so the game flows better making it a better watch too, unfortunately the IRB keep adding new laws every years year, which just continues to overcomplicate the game even more.Untrue.
It is the different competitions and ref groups that seem to alter interpretations (then lose focus ) and WR will also allow law trials in different areas.
To me the biggest 'problem' is interpretation of materiality between refs. It is left to opinion and 'feel' of the game.
Quite often refs will be totally aware of rushing outsides that are offside but interpret that as it is a long way from play there is no effect. Others will ping it. Some only call close of midfield overstepping, some only call it in the attacking zone.
In fact 'attacking zone' is also a bugbear of mine. For a team that can attack and create breaks from anywhere offside play from the defence is often ignored out wide right where they would like to send the ball.
That's also where a good captain will come in.My point is the IRB tamper with the rules a lot so overcomplicate the game.
The breakdown area is open to a heap of interpretation, it's much easier for a ref to see if someone is offside or not though, they also have linemen's to assist them... it's not just about the captain on the field in decision making, his leadership group contribute as well.
There are no linesmen. There are assistant refs and they are more interested in manufacturing incidents of foul play than patrolling the offside line
Whatever you want to call them they still assist the ref... we know all the so called officials out on the field do a poor job.
I disagree completely, I think in most cases the refs in rugby do a bloody good job. The spectators that watch the game in many cases are awful confused on the laws etc!
And sorry mate, I would hate the 5 metre back from a ruck etc to become law. If anyone wants attacking and defending teams kept 10m apart there is a game called league to follow.
Disagree...
Can understand why the breakdown area is such a nightmare for refs as the rules there are wide open for too much interpretation... but refs are definitely not doing a good job with the offside rule, all flat defences lined across the field are way offside, not saying for them to stand back too far, but at least stay onside enough so we can watch a good game of rubgy.Did make the point earlier they don't have to be 5 metres back from a ruck, but the ref needs to make sure they stand back a bit more than they do... really peeves me off when players comes in from the side of rucks & gets away with it.
How often do we run up and down on sideline to be in line with play to see who is on or offside, and know when the ruck has been formed? And I have seen very seldom times that cameras are in a good line to see who's foot is behind the last foot And generally when I have been at games I have heard spectators screaming such and such is offside from other end of field, and often when ruck hasn't even formed as there not players from BOTH teams on their feet to make it a ruck etc. I actually think a lot of the problems are the people who don't understand the laws I believe
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@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:.
Rieko Ioane is playing out of position, he's always getting caught out defending as a midfielder, put him back on the wing where he belongs so the bloke can use that tremendous speed he has - also our strength is playing a fast paced game, so why play the 113kg Papalii at 7, we need fast opensides that have the pace to link up with the backs... play the players in positions where you're going to get the best value out of them.
RIoane has been one of the better centres in NZ. I don't see him getting caught out, rather he utilises his speed to present and negate an opportunity to the opposition should they be able to get the ball wide. It's also rather pointless him being ion the wing when we're incapable of getting the ball wide in space.
I'll also note Dalton plays openside well enough for the Blues.
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@nzbloke I agree on Ioane. He is a winger not a centre.
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The bullshit myths about Reiko at centre are getting hilarious.
Yeah our midfield is so porous when he is there, just terrible.
South islanders fucking hate the Ioane boys. One should stay on the tram tracks where he belongs. And the other should just fuck off. And their facial expressions are just wrong!!!
Ioane at centre is one of the things I can see they are trying that actually has real merit. Needs the right 12 though.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
Ioane at centre is one of the things I can see they are trying that actually has real merit. Needs the right 12 though.
Tend to agree. He's not there yet and is probably better on the wing than at centre right now, but there's real, serious potential. Reiko looks to be a confidence player and the coaches are rightly building up his experience and confidence at 13 rather than shove him there all the time.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
The bullshit myths about Reiko at centre are getting hilarious.
Yeah our midfield is so porous when he is there, just terrible.
South islanders fucking hate the Ioane boys. One should stay on the tram tracks where he belongs. And the other should just fuck off. And their facial expressions are just wrong!!!
Ioane at centre is one of the things I can see they are trying that actually has real merit. Needs the right 12 though.
Every 13 needs right 12, and 10 usually,but if 12 and 13 don't go well together they neither is going to look great.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
The bullshit myths about Reiko at centre are getting hilarious.
Yeah our midfield is so porous when he is there, just terrible.
South islanders fucking hate the Ioane boys. One should stay on the tram tracks where he belongs. And the other should just fuck off. And their facial expressions are just wrong!!!
Ioane at centre is one of the things I can see they are trying that actually has real merit. Needs the right 12 though.
I agree with the sentiment but not sure where the 'South Islanders' part comes from. Maybe it is a localised or Cantab thing but I talk a fair bit of shit about rugby down south and have never heard bad comments about them. Just talked about like anyone that has good and bad moments.
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@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
Maybe it is time to make the 5 metre rule apply to rucks as well?
You'll just have people crying that they aren't five metres back. The solution is to have competent officials, not keep changing the rules.
Of course you want competent refs involved, the trouble is all the referees around the world are not refereeing properly when it comes to the offside rule, in fact bloody poorly.
Sometimes the rules need to be adjusted so the game flows better making it a better watch too, unfortunately the IRB keep adding new laws every years year, which just continues to overcomplicate the game even more.Untrue.
It is the different competitions and ref groups that seem to alter interpretations (then lose focus ) and WR will also allow law trials in different areas.
To me the biggest 'problem' is interpretation of materiality between refs. It is left to opinion and 'feel' of the game.
Quite often refs will be totally aware of rushing outsides that are offside but interpret that as it is a long way from play there is no effect. Others will ping it. Some only call close of midfield overstepping, some only call it in the attacking zone.
In fact 'attacking zone' is also a bugbear of mine. For a team that can attack and create breaks from anywhere offside play from the defence is often ignored out wide right where they would like to send the ball.
That's also where a good captain will come in.My point is the IRB tamper with the rules a lot so overcomplicate the game.
The breakdown area is open to a heap of interpretation, it's much easier for a ref to see if someone is offside or not though, they also have linemen's to assist them... it's not just about the captain on the field in decision making, his leadership group contribute as well.
There are no linesmen. There are assistant refs and they are more interested in manufacturing incidents of foul play than patrolling the offside line
Whatever you want to call them they still assist the ref... we know all the so called officials out on the field do a poor job.
I disagree completely, I think in most cases the refs in rugby do a bloody good job. The spectators that watch the game in many cases are awful confused on the laws etc!
And sorry mate, I would hate the 5 metre back from a ruck etc to become law. If anyone wants attacking and defending teams kept 10m apart there is a game called league to follow.
Disagree...
Can understand why the breakdown area is such a nightmare for refs as the rules there are wide open for too much interpretation... but refs are definitely not doing a good job with the offside rule, all flat defences lined across the field are way offside, not saying for them to stand back too far, but at least stay onside enough so we can watch a good game of rubgy.Did make the point earlier they don't have to be 5 metres back from a ruck, but the ref needs to make sure they stand back a bit more than they do... really peeves me off when players comes in from the side of rucks & gets away with it.
How often do we run up and down on sideline to be in line with play to see who is on or offside, and know when the ruck has been formed? And I have seen very seldom times that cameras are in a good line to see who's foot is behind the last foot And generally when I have been at games I have heard spectators screaming such and such is offside from other end of field, and often when ruck hasn't even formed as there not players from BOTH teams on their feet to make it a ruck etc. I actually think a lot of the problems are the people who don't understand the laws I believe
Reckon the rules are that complicated even the refs have trouble understanding them - also find it ridiculous when teams recycle phase ball many a time they can only pass it wide a couple of times, then the defence is standing on top of them, so they have to be offside, yet refs hardly do anything about it, that nonsense is ruining the game... your backline can't stand to deep when attacking as you'd be playing too far behind the advantage line, so then the only other option is a smart kicking game.
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
ive said it before, i would love for the IRB to do the exercise of sticking some people in a room, write on the wall
- 15 players a side
- these are the dimensions of the field
- cant pass the ball forward
- we want scrums of 8 people each and line outs
...whats next?
if they went back to first principles would we end up with the same rules as we currently have or would we end up with a much more stream lined set of rules? would we find lost of the things we keep trying to "fix" by building on top of the existing rules could be handled much better by simplifying rather than complicating
Totally agree mate.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks 2021:
I think he can use his pace at 13.
He can use his deadly pace at times in the midfield, but he's not going to get many opportunities to do that as a midfielder as that's where all the heavy traffic is... as a winger he'll certainly get more opportunities to use his gas, which is the blokes strength.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
And it is not that we lost to them but the convincing way in which we lost to them (Ireland, Argentina, France) and after we had plenty of time to improve and change strategies.
But the same could be said of the coaching team in '09. And the coaching team in 2012/3. As for convincing losses, remember England in 2012, the Wobbles in Hong Kong?
I hear the sound of goal-posts being moved.....
you mean your 2009 goalposts?! The ones you brought into the conversation?!
No. After you criticised him for saying he had the coaching group he wanted yet lost 2 games, I pointed out that the coaching team in 2009 had a much, much worse loss record than Foster and also mentioned we had been close to losing against Ireland & Argentina long before Foster.
So you did bring 2009 into it then.
Actually I said he apparently had an ideal coaching team, yet he still lost important games, the implication being it can't have been ideal.
Then you replied the 2009 team lost but I don't see a quote from you from the 2009 head coach that he thought his team was "ideal" or proof he chose them. So your whole point is moot and besides I don't care, the 2009 coach is not the 2022 AB coach who will also be the next RWC coach. So yes you were changing the goalposts.It's a pretty fair argument to say the the nature of the losses were uniquely bad under Foster (which can be debated as I pointed out). But it's a different argument from the one you used earlier - but that's cool as it's obviously in the best traditions of the Fern....
Not a different argument given Foster said he had the ideal coaching team.
My point is fairly simple, either Foster believes his team is ideal or it isn't.
If it is ideal he should ideally win against Ireland and Argentina. If that is impossible he should not lose so badly either unless that is the best the ABs could be.
Therefore either his judgement is wrong or our record really is ideal (it is as good as it gets i.e. the ABs can't perform any better, given such ideal coaches).And if he claims they are his ideal team then either he is responsible for choosing the assistant head coaches OR he must believe he would have chosen them regardless as they are apparently "ideal".
After spending eight years as assistant to Steve Hansen, New Zealand head coach Ian Foster knows he must be his own man.
"Now it's time for you to see me in a new light and that's up to me to show you that I'm innovative, I've got a sense of direction of where I want this team to go, and I'm extremely passionate about adding a new touch to it and to really grow and get some mana back on the field, which we feel we might have lost."And Foster promised to show himself in a new light
--Innovation
--Sense of direction
--New touch
--Mana back on the fieldHow can he do all that if he does not pick the assistants? Is he lying to us?
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/118112502/ian-foster-a-done-deal-tvnz-sources-report"It's been eight years with the All Blacks, I've learned a lot. But I need to take my own ideas," Foster said.I am using his words and focusing on what he has promised and claimed. I don't need to go back to 2009 or compare to other coaches. So I don't agree that it is me who is trying to change the goalposts.
It will very interesting to see him double down on this...
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@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2021:
I think he can use his pace at 13.
He can use his deadly pace at times in the midfield, but he's not going to get many opportunities to do that as a midfielder as that's where all the heavy traffic is... as a winger he'll certainly get more opportunities to use his gas, which is the blokes strength.
It's not 2003 any more, there isn't much in the way of space out there either, teams at test level are too good at holding their width.
The thinking is the genuine pace at 13 will allow outside breaks to beat umbrella style defences and punish wingers who stay rigidly on their man.
It's not the only way to skin a cat, but I can see the merit in it. -
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
It will very interesting to see him double down on this...
Foster?
Yeah, but at the moment I am more perplexed about the reasoning for selecting Joe Schmidt if he is a selector only, and not helping as assistant coach--what would he have seen from overseas and in retirement that the other selectors don't?
Ok he is working with the Blues but not sure what more inside info is required from there..https://www.allblacks.com/news/joe-schmidt-to-join-all-blacks-as-independent-selector/
“Joe will bring a wealth of New Zealand and international experience into the role, so we are delighted to have him join us. He will work closely with me and ‘Plums’ on selections but his insights will be valuable in other areas as well, so we look forward to having him join us.”Hmm sounds to me that the ideal coaching team has just been augmented .. I wonder who requested Joe join, Ian Foster or NZ Rugby?
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
It will very interesting to see him double down on this...
Foster?
Yeah, but at the moment I am more perplexed about the reasoning for selecting Joe Schmidt if he is a selector only, and not helping as assistant coach--what would he have seen from overseas and in retirement that the other selectors don't?
Ok he is working with the Blues but not sure what more inside info is required from there..https://www.allblacks.com/news/joe-schmidt-to-join-all-blacks-as-independent-selector/
“Joe will bring a wealth of New Zealand and international experience into the role, so we are delighted to have him join us. He will work closely with me and ‘Plums’ on selections but his insights will be valuable in other areas as well, so we look forward to having him join us.”Hmm sounds to me that the ideal coaching team has just been augmented .. I wonder who requested Joe join, Ian Foster or NZ Rugby?
Well as Foster tried to get him as a selector when he got the job, I suspect it him. Fox wanted to get out after 2019, and because Schmidt wasn't ready to get into it they talked Foxy into staying on, I taking it until him or someone they wanted was available.
